It's taken a while, but I've now got A4 and A3 prints off the microfilm of AP-A0-0048. I've e-mailed a scanned image to the APT-P website and can also supply hard copies if anyone wants one.

Martin C
(or should that be misterHKbrakes???!)

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "brookweed5" <brookweed5@...> wrote:
>
> Could be a copy in the RDDS library in Derby - I'll see whatbwe've got.
>
> Martin C
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Evans <nicks-ygroups@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Rob
> >
> > Thats exactly what we need.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > On Sat, 2011-07-30 at 16:58 +0000, aptp370 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Nick
> > >
> > > You need a copy of drawing AP-A0-0048 I have a poor print of it that I
> > > have scanned here -
> > >
> > > http://www.apt-p.com/PCPaint001.jpg
> > > http://www.apt-p.com/PCPaint002.jpg
> > > http://www.apt-p.com/PCPaint003.jpg
> > > http://www.apt-p.com/PCPaint004.jpg
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > >
> > > Rob
> > > www.APT-P.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Alan

Apart from the difficulties of replicating full size practise, my option for dynamic tilting was to avoid the tilt at halt phenomenon of say, the Hornby APT-P et al tilting models. The dynamic 'reactive' approach only produces tilt at speed- as was an alternative to the APT 'predictive' system which only works with correct predictive data.

I do wish I had access to Gauge 1 to try out different options- and maybe different power plants.

Cheers
Les

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe" <a2cmodel@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Les, I was lucky to get access to the BR drawings from another member of this group. I realised that the drawings were not as built but yet another member who was looking at building a working GT powered model supplied me with photos and measurements of the differences. I also found the drawing by David Hart very useful after I had corrected the TCs to the correct length and windows spacing etc. The site says they are 3mm scale but they printed straight to 4mm for me.
>
> My tilt mechanism is a combination of the curve being sensed by mechanical link from the first and third shared bogies with the pivot point being adjusted by the R/C speed signal for the motors. Drawback for this approach is that if you stop on a tight curve and go for a full power start the units will immediately go to full tilt - have to look at fitting an electronic servo slow circuit.
>
> My model is going backwards at the moment because some of the construction techniques did not work out properly - will get there in the end.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tal95@...
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:47 PM
> Subject: <APT Group> Re: apt-e modelling
>
>
>
> Thanks Alan
>
> I'm working in 7mm scale O gauge- I've had BR originated plans and proximity to the real thing at Shildon for reference.
>
> Unable to scale down the prototype mechanics, I've gone for dynamic tilting.
>
> Yours
> Les Hooper
>

Hello Alistair

I'm assuming you've checked out the model pages on the APT-E website with an example of the train modified from a Hornby APT-P.

The Hornby model is a pretty decent cross section for the E train but is slightly too shallow in the roof curve.

The APT-E graphics on the site seem to have been drawn from original sources and would make a good starting point with suitable photos.

I've never been able to find (accurate) plan drawings and had to resort to a long measuring tape and delayed action camera on a broom shank to get the necessary data at Shildon.

Les

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Alistair <alistair@...> wrote:
>
> On 11/11/2011 11:46, Alan Coombe wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > Les, can't help you with the stenciling or silver spec but on my !0 mm
> > scale model I intend to spray with Hycote aluminium and seal it with
> > gloss varnish from the same maker - looks about right to my eye.
> > I was told the wipers were linear.
> > What scale are you building and what plans did you use?
>
> Hello all,
>
> Hopefully it's ok for me to butt in and ask where do people modelling
> APT get plans etc? Are there copies of suitable drawings available
> anywhere (preferably digitised) or is it a case of modelling from photos?
>
> I keep saying I'm goint to model E-Train in OO scale, firstly
> experimenting with a few different ideas I have for active tilt
> bogies... One day I hope to actually get around to it!
>
> Alistair
> (long time reader, first time poster)
>

Hello Mr Spackman

What a pleasure to be in touch with the man himself.

All is now clear on the wipers (?!)- I did wonder why some photos showed two and others only one. Having sat in the cab at Shildon, the whole view forward is very 'tunnel vision' and must have been a unique experience for the drivers.

On my model I've included the coach connectors but notice the original lost these very early in the testing programme. Given the intercar model was mechanically fixed to neighbouring cars via the 'roller track' and that tilt on a car could fail, were there particular problems of shear and stress in this area?

Regards

Les

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Les,
>
> AFAIK there were NO stencils at all on the bodyside of any of the E-Train vehicles. Directly above the PC bogies there was a 'This gap may close' sticker and these were also located towatd the ends of the PCs and on both TCs but that's about it.
>
> The winsdcreen wipers were adpated from maritime practice and went from side to side on a lateral track at the base of the windscreen. PC1 had twin blades about 10" apart, whereas PC2 had only one.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "tal95@" <ah4mac@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I'm looking for help in the detailing of a model of the APT-E.
> >
> > Any information on bodyside stenciling such as WATER, FUEL, LIFT HERE etc would be much appreciated as would any advice on the specification of the original livery silver.
> >
> > Also, does anyone know if the windscreen wipers moved in arcs or from side to side?
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> > Les Hooper
> >
> > **PS**
> > I'm sending this again as it doesn't seem to have got theruogh the first time, sorry if it displays as a duplicate
> >
>

Hi David

Thanks very much for the tip on Helvetica Medium- I'd been assuming Gill Sans or some variety of the later 'Transport'. As it happens I've recently been helping a friend clear the garage of his father, a long retired signwriter for Swan Hunters. Fascinating tools of the trade.

Les

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny \(y\)" <david.halfpenny@...> wrote:
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:31 PM
> To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: <APT Group> Re: apt-e modelling
>
> > Hello Les,
> >
> > AFAIK there were NO stencils at all on the bodyside of any of the E-Train
> > vehicles.
>
> Just a general comment lettering before computerised swivel-knife cutters,
> now used to cut stencils and vinyls alike.
> I can't speak for E-Train, and of course HOW E-Train was lettered doesn't
> matter to a modeller.
>
> The lab coaches etc were signwritten in the traditional manner by brush,
> indeed as the paint wore thin with weather and washing the brushstrokes
> would start to show through.
>
> Some lettering was done freehand while some was done using a pricked card
> stencil and Pounce. The letters were drawn out full size using the
> constructions specified in the Style manual for Helvetica Medium, then the
> outlines pricked through. The graphic was taped to the vehicle and patted
> with a bag of Pounce (pumice or similar fine sharp powder). Then the
> stencil was taken off for reuse and the painter joined the faint dots and
> filled in the letter. Ideally half the powder would sink into the paint
> while the other half would wipe off once the paint was dry.
> Fascinating to watch an ancient craft in the hi-tech RTC yard, and quite
> different from using cut-out stencils.
>
> David 1/2d
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "tal95@..." <ah4mac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 5:44 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> Re: apt-e modelling

>
> I do wish I had access to Gauge 1 to try out different options- and maybe
> different power plants.
>

There are two ways of getting access to Gauge 1 tracks:

- many model engineering societies have them

- the Gauge 1 Model Railway Association, to which some of us here belong,
and which has members with Gauge 1 tracks all over the country and beyond.

If you'd like to write offlist saying roughly where you live I could find
out what's near to you.

David 1/2d

Hello Les,

I've been called a few things in my life but 'The Man' hasn't been one of them so far. <g>

The forward view from APT-E and the prototype HST 252 sets was one of the bones of contention between ASLEF and BR, and which resulted in the blacking of our tests, and the wildy expensive 1 day strike after we moved the train across to the Loco Works to bring forward Rebuild 1.

On the 253 sets and APT-P the cabs were re-designed to incorporate side windows, although why anyone would want to look out of them at the planned 155 mph defeats me! The six drivers we had trained up for the first tests of E-Train didn't seem overly concerned about the 'tunnel vision' aspect and the first time I heard anyone mention it was from the WR drivers we had join us at Old Oak Common.

As for the 'coach connectors' I assume you mean the rubber diaphragms that went between the joint module and the adjacent vehicle, do you? If so they lasted only to the end of the first run on 25-7-72! When we got back to the RTC most of them were ripped from top to bottom and I can remember hearing one of them go as we went through Derby Station on the way out. I was lying on my front on the floor of the centre joint module to observe if the centre SA bogie was hunting or not so the diaphragms were only about 5 ft from my head.

They were stripped off during Rebuild 1 and were never replaced although you can see the clamping strips and the wooden battens on the train at Shildon to this day.

Actually the joint modules aren't fixed the neighbouring vehcles at all, they ride on four little rollers, two per side, which sit on curved tracks on the end 'verandas' of the vehicles. There's a radius rod that attaches the side of the module to the steering beam so that it moves sideways with the beam on curves, and a sprung double ended buffer at roof height that stabilises it in the approx. centre of the gap, but it's not actually bolted to the vehicles at all. The centre floor is made of strips of RHS mounted on a transverse rod so that the floor assumes a semi-curved shape during tilting and curving and the outer floor panels rotate on the same transverse rod. This means the joint module floor automatically takes up an average position of the two adjacent vehicles, no matter if they are tilting, curving or not.

It's a very clever piece of design and the only time we ever had any problems with it was when we split the train at York before the Shildon move. Then Paul and I found out just how little movement was allowed before the rollers came off their tracks and the joint module fell off! It's about 3"! One of the photos on the E-Train web site shows the module being held up by a fork lift truck on that occasion.

Hope this helps.


Martin, I can see no reason at all why you can't be 'MisterHKbrake' <g>

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "tal95@..." <ah4mac@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Mr Spackman
>
> What a pleasure to be in touch with the man himself.
>
> All is now clear on the wipers (?!)- I did wonder why some photos showed two and others only one. Having sat in the cab at Shildon, the whole view forward is very 'tunnel vision' and must have been a unique experience for the drivers.
>
> On my model I've included the coach connectors but notice the original lost these very early in the testing programme. Given the intercar model was mechanically fixed to neighbouring cars via the 'roller track' and that tilt on a car could fail, were there particular problems of shear and stress in this area?
>
> Regards
>
> Les
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Les,
> >
> > AFAIK there were NO stencils at all on the bodyside of any of the E-Train vehicles. Directly above the PC bogies there was a 'This gap may close' sticker and these were also located towatd the ends of the PCs and on both TCs but that's about it.
> >
> > The winsdcreen wipers were adpated from maritime practice and went from side to side on a lateral track at the base of the windscreen. PC1 had twin blades about 10" apart, whereas PC2 had only one.
> >
> > Regards
> > Kit
> >
> > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "tal95@" <ah4mac@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I'm looking for help in the detailing of a model of the APT-E.
> > >
> > > Any information on bodyside stenciling such as WATER, FUEL, LIFT HERE etc would be much appreciated as would any advice on the specification of the original livery silver.
> > >
> > > Also, does anyone know if the windscreen wipers moved in arcs or from side to side?
> > >
> > > Many thanks
> > >
> > > Les Hooper
> > >
> > > **PS**
> > > I'm sending this again as it doesn't seem to have got theruogh the first time, sorry if it displays as a duplicate
> > >
> >
>

Hello Martin

if you could email a copy of the scan to me at (rob@...) I'll upload it to my website for us all to share !!


Best wishes


Rob
www.APT-P.com

Does anyone know how far the budd company in the U.S.managed to get with the design and development of the American version of the Apt and if they did get far a s the design stage how WOULD HAVE the Amercan unit have compared to the original?
KJE

Good question......

The agreement with Budd was made very early on in the APT programme, in the mid-60s as I recall, and required a 'production train' to be in service by 1969! There was NO chance of that ever happening so one can only surmise that the agreement died on the vine.

Quite what an AAPT would have looked like is a minefield. In those days the US railroad passenger services were still operated by the individual roads themselves, Amtrak wasn't formed till 1971, and to say they were ineffiecient would have been a gross understatement.

Even in the mid 80s, when I was able to travel on Amtrak trains quite extensively, passenger services were always hampered by the freight trains that had priority over any lines other than designated suburban ones or separate main line, like the East Coast Corridor from New England down to Virginia.

On the western lines there'd have been no need of tilting at all, nor high perfomance brakes either, as the trains ran so slowly that such enhancements weren't really needed. The limiting factor tended to be the state of the track, often dropping speeds to a crawl in the wide open country on straight track!

I think you could imagine an APPT in any way you feel like, and you could well be right!

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "spacewriter_ranger" <jegan0131@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how far the budd company in the U.S.managed to get with the design and development of the American version of the Apt and if they did get far a s the design stage how WOULD HAVE the Amercan unit have compared to the original?
> KJE
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 6:52 PM

> I think you could imagine an APPT in any way you feel like, and you could
> well be right!
>

I imagine ribbed stainless steel :-)

More time has elapsed between E-Train and the present than between E-Train
and the Burlington Zephyr - an experimental train that changed railway
history in more than one way.

Ichabod!

David 1/2d

As happens, I can comment a bit on this.

A Budd-AAPT for America would almost certainly have been used on the
Northeast Corridor (then New Haven) particularly on the stretch
between New Haven and Boston, which was at the time not electrified
(and with no funds available for that purpose!) I suspect the
'spoiler' for a Budd-AAPT would have been the contemporary United
Aircraft Turbotrain, which while using comparatively primitive
passive tilt was already built to the effective American loading
gage, had the necessary political connections, and at some point in
there demonstrated it was perfectly happy accelerating up to 170mph
on contemporary American track.

The 'other' high-speed Corridor projects, the only other place at the
time for the sort of sustained speeds that would justify an APT over
something more primitive like the HST (grrr!), were the electrified
lines of then-PRR, and that is where Budd's Metroliner was steadily
becoming less and less advanced in design and then development.

There really weren't any other city pairs in the contemporary United
States that would support a VIABLE APT-grade high-speed service --
this was before effective subsidies, remember. Most of the long-
distance runs were only 'competitive' because of sleeping
accommodations, and I don't recall ever having seen high-speed tilt
applied to any American sleeping-car project in order to reduce
absolute time. I don't think the state of some of the Western
trackage, particularly the ATSF mainline (which in the late '60s
supported 90-mph freight train speeds!) was too bad to preclude high-
speed service, but turbine power and active tilt/long negative cant
deficiency were probably overkill for ground transportation at the time.

I'd expect a Budd APT to have considerably larger envelope than the
British train, but not 'substantially' (as absolute frontal and
quartering area reduction would still have been significant factors)
and the shell would probably have resembled the curved-side
Metroliner cars (perhaps also sharing FRA-compliant underframe and
bracing construction). One great operational problem with the UA
turbotrain was operation at high-level platforms, and an American APT
would be expected to have its doors at high level but also have full
traps and steps for low-level access -- these would probably be
placed in adapted commuter-car door frame structures to clear the
truck articulation. Be interesting to see what would be developed
for tilt packs and so on with the higher weight and, presumably,
higher metacenter...

The original nose drawings I saw resembled contemporary jet-aircraft
noses, with considerable leading overhang. That design might, in
fact, have survived early consideration of collision-proofing -- I
have a picture somewhere taken backward from the leading 'dome' of a
Turbotrain that ran through a loaded articulated trailer, if I recall
correctly full of supermarket food. Result, still largely aloft,
resembled a large dirty firework -- interestingly, though, there was
only minimal damage to the two clamshell nose doors. Metroliners had
similarly worthless nose and pilot arrangements where collision
safety was concerned (I think much dependence on grade-crossing
elimination projects in the latter '60s and '70s were seen as more of
an answer). My own nose designs (by the early '70s) were more shovel-
nosed with the running position relatively low and centered with
plenty of structure 'forward' of the driving position -- the thinking
in America at the time being that ties running quickly in the
driver's peripheral vision were likely to induce a condition similar
to 'highway hypnosis'. But I cheerfully confess to having been a bit
brainwashed by exposure to E train after 1971! ;-}

I'd be very interested to see what modifications for the American
version were actually discussed or planned.


RME

Hello All

Martin has now sent me the scan of the APT-P Powercar Painting Diagram and I have uploaded it to the FILES section of this group... I also plan to add this and other files to a resource for modellers section of my site in the coming weeks - what other info would you be interested in ?

Also to those at the ERM could you send some progress photo's of the powercar - I saw one on Flickr that shows it in green primer on one side...

Rob
www.APT-P.com

Who needs tilting?

http://amazing-photography-blogz.blogspot.com/2010/07/jet-powered-other-futuristic-trains.html

:-)

Nick

IIRC the GM Aerotrain DID tilt, but it used a Talgo train type passive system with the pivot point up near the roof. I've never seen films of it doing its thing on curves though, the tilt response at the curve entry would be interesting to watch.

That bit about the 'Black Beetle' isn't totally accurate from an aviation point of view, as the twin J-47 engine pod originally came from the inboard positin on a Boeing B-47 Stratojet. That pod was in turn adopted by Convair for the B-36 Peacemaker, bringing its engine count up to TEN! That's 6 piston engines and 4 jets, co-indentally the engine count as E-Train. <g>

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:
>
> Who needs tilting?
>
> http://amazing-photography-blogz.blogspot.com/2010/07/jet-powered-other-futuristic-trains.html
>
> :-)
>
> Nick
>

On Friday, December 02, 2011 5:26 PM,
Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Posted by: "misterrtilt" bosspecops@... misterrtilt
> Date: Fri Dec 2, 2011 6:00 am ((PST))
>
> IIRC the GM Aerotrain DID tilt, but it used a Talgo train type passive
> system with the pivot point up near the roof. I've never seen films of it
> doing its thing on curves though, the tilt response at the curve entry
> would be interesting to watch.
>
> That bit about the 'Black Beetle' isn't totally accurate from an aviation
> point of view, as the twin J-47 engine pod originally came from the
> inboard positin on a Boeing B-47 Stratojet. That pod was in turn adopted
> by Convair for the B-36 Peacemaker, bringing its engine count up to TEN!
> That's 6 piston engines and 4 jets, co-indentally the engine count as
> E-Train. <g>

You mean that thing was for real??!

I'd read the whole page as a wind-up...!
--

dave_burbridge@...

On 02/12/2011 23:59, misterrtilt wrote:

> IIRC the GM Aerotrain DID tilt, but it used a Talgo train type
> passive system with the pivot point up near the roof. I've never seen
> films of it doing its thing on curves though, the tilt response at
> the curve entry would be interesting to watch.

Actually, that was a different train.

The Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific ordered one of the LWT-12 locos
that hauled the two Aerotrain demonstrator sets, and coupled it to Talgo
(tilting) coaches. These aren't the same coaches that the Aerotrain
used, and look quite different.

The CRIP called this train the 'Jet Rocket'.

(The CRIP also ended up with both Aerotrains, using them in commuter
service they weren't really designed for...)

James Moody
--
aka: Major Denis Bloodnok | (¯\
http://www.vsr.org.uk | \ \ /¯)
| \ \___/ /
And then it comes to be | |/ _)| )
That the soothing light | ( (|_| )
At the end of your tunnel | \ /
Is just a freight train coming your way | |====|

Absolutely it was!

Although they did use one of the longest lengths of straight track in the USA to do it. I'm not sure I'd have fancied being on board that at 180+ mph going round any sort of curve at all on the standard Budd RDC bogies! (Sorry, they're 'trucks' in the US....)

As for tilting Talgo Aerotrains I did preface my comment with 'IIRC'....

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Burbridge" <dave_burbridge@...> wrote:

> You mean that thing was for real??!
>
> I'd read the whole page as a wind-up...!
> --
>
> dave_burbridge@...

Looking at the Race Against Time video reminded me of a serious design
fault in the APT-P trailer axles whichd perhaps not many people know
about.

The trailer axles are a composite of two conical axles with a central
cylindrical section which forms the outercasing of the HK Brake.
Sandwiched between each conical axle and the central section is a
driving flange of the HK Brake rotor - one for each direction of travel.
The axle sections are bolted together with high tensile steel bolts and
a number of axles failures were blamed on these bolts losing their
tension - intially thought to be from poor assembly. However, Andrew
Jablonski and I spent a number of interestesting evenings running a
conical axle and axlebox assembly on the roller section of the brake
dynamometer in the APD laboratory. The reason for the evening running
was because of the risk of failure - because what we were trying to do
was to initiate a bearing failure in the HK brake assembly. Running the
bearings dry for hours on end did not lead to failure so we eventually
had a modification made which allowed a solution of thin oil containing
carborundum grit to be fed into the bearing - and a bearing failure did
indeed occur after some 20 minutes running.

The brake and axle assembly was fuly instrumented and what the test
showed was that at the point of failure of the bearing, the temparature
of the aulminium elements in the brake, including the rotors and their
driving flanges, was sufficently high for the aluminum to soften to the
extent that all the tension in the bolts holding the axle assembly
together was lost, causing the axle assembly to fail. Given time, this
could have been corrected by making the driving flanges out of steel
rather than aluminium - but by this stage the project was in the process
of being stopped - although this discovery may well have been one of the
deciding factor.

I guess we were very lucky to not have more serious failures - for
example, an HK brake and conical axle was installed in the bogie of BSO
7915 - with all of the brake control etc installed in the parcels area
- which regularly ran on the London to Wolverhampton route as an
endurance test bed while APT-P was being built. And the BSO ran
completely unattended...

Martin Collins

APT (E&P) HK Brake Development

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Martin Collins" <brookweed5@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 3:59 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> APT_P Trailer Axle serious design fault

>
> Looking at the Race Against Time video reminded me of a serious design
> fault in the APT-P trailer axles whichd perhaps not many people know
> about.
>
> The trailer axles are a composite of two conical axles with a central
> cylindrical section which forms the outercasing of the HK Brake.

I hadn't heard about that Martin.
I wonder whether a bearing failure in service would have involved enough
fluid to avoid the softening?

At least the P-Train axles were conical - the E-Train ones were parallel
tubes and therefore unable to withstand any derailment.

Talking of derailments an axle did actually come right apart in what was at
the time believed to be the fastest rail crash in history. That record now
goes to Germany I believe.

The result smashed three miles of concrete sleepers on the busy WCML so we
were not ever so popular.

That led to the investigation that revealed the assembly problem you
mention - or rather the machining problem underlying it.

Ever after that I used to ask interview candidates what the purpose of
torque-tightening bolts is.

David 1/2d

Hi Rob

I for one am looking for definitive profiles of the APT-P intermediate cars showing the side grille layouts both sides, or info that they were mirrored, similar in view etc).

Cheers

Les

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "aptp370" <rob@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All
>
> Martin has now sent me the scan of the APT-P Powercar Painting Diagram and I have uploaded it to the FILES section of this group... I also plan to add this and other files to a resource for modellers section of my site in the coming weeks - what other info would you be interested in ?
>
> Also to those at the ERM could you send some progress photo's of the powercar - I saw one on Flickr that shows it in green primer on one side...
>
> Rob
> www.APT-P.com
>

Hi all

I have just uploaded some snaps of the Pendolino passing at speed through Crewe Station carrying Kit Spackman and Martin Collins as they recreate their trip from 30 years ago !!

See www.APT-P.com

Best wishes


Rob

Cheers Rob,

I still can't believe it's the 30th anniversary !!

Take care,
Andy

Neither can Martin or I, and we were there on both occasions! <g>

I'll post a full report on here later in the week, in the meanwhile I'm TOTALLY knackered after having been on board trains for almost 24 hrs non-stop! While sleepers allow you to sleep on board a train the experience isn't as relaxing as being at home in your own bed....

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton" <AndyAppleton@...> wrote:
>
> Cheers Rob,
>
> I still can't believe it's the 30th anniversary !!
>
> Take care,
> Andy
>

 

30^th Anniversary Trip

7^th December 2011

by

Kit Spackman

December 7^th, a day which will live in..................British railway history.

(Thanks to President Roosevelt for the mis-quote)

In 1981 December 7^th was the day that marked the début of the APT-P in passenger service, and I'd managed to be on the first run, southbound from Glasgow Central to Euston at 7.00 am on a cold winter morning. For the last three years I'd intended to mark that trip by doing the same journey on APT-P's modern day equivalent, Virgin Train's Class 390 Pendelino. 2011 seemed a good year to chose as it was the 30^th Anniversary and I've spent the last few months working out the various routes and services that would get me to Glasgow and back home again without spending too much money, the purchase of a Senior Railcard being a big help in that direction.

It turned out that the best solution was to take the Caledonian Sleeper north from Euston the previous day, and to catch that I had to take an Arriva local service from Lydney to Newport, and then by First Great Western's HST service to Paddington, then a short trip on the Underground to Euston for the sleeper. The return trip would be the same in reverse, but considerably faster due to coming south on the Pendelino of course.

So at 1717 hrs. on Tuesday the 6^th I was waiting in the gloom at Lydney Station to catch Arriva's 158835 twin unit to Newport, which commendably left exactly on time. However the master plan started to come apart almost right away as we stopped just outside Severn Tunnel Junction for over 10 mins! It turned out that a herd of cows had strayed across the track between Cardiff and Newport, delaying all services in both directions, so we arrived in Newport some 14 mins late only 5 mins before the planned departure time of the HST I was supposed to be on, but that didn't matter as FGW had cancelled it!

After giving the station staff the third degree I was told I could get on the first HST that arrived, which was over 30 mins. late itself, but of course my reserved seat wouldn't exist. Luckily that train wasn't too packed, and left Newport in the care of 43033 at 1825. I did have to stand until we reached Swindon but after that there were plenty of seats available. Of course the route was also part of APT history as we passed over the same metals that APT-E used to set the Speed Record of 152.3 in August 1975, and I was on board THAT trip too! Sadly the whole journey was in total darkness so there was no way to identify Uffington Loop or Pangbourne but I couldn't have everything I guess.

We arrived at Paddington at 2013 and I headed for the Underground platforms, only to find that all Circle Line trains were stopping at Edgeware Rd for some reason, and when I got there the place was packed to the eyebrows. After waiting some time, and not being able to get on two trains in succession, I finally got to Euston Square about 20 mins before the sleeper left. Euston Square is some distance from the main line station and once you get up to ground level there are no signs to tell you which direction it's in! After walking about 50 yards in the wrong direction (no Sun at night to show you which way is north or south......) I saw a road sign that showed me the correct direction and I reversed my heading and went back the other way.

Euston isn't the easiest station to find, it's hidden behind big office blocks and has almost no indications that it even exists but I finally found the main entrance and went in there. The Caledonian Sleeper was easy to track down luckily and I got aboard after being 'signed in' by the very efficient train staff. The train was huge, 16 coaches with an EWS Class 90, 90035, on the front, but it seemed that it was three trains in one and it would split at Edinburgh Waverley.

My compartment was in the very first coach, as I'd booked so many months before, and it was very quiet indeed, most impressive. As I was travelling First Class on this section I got the choice of whatever breakfast I wanted at whatever time I desired, and as I was getting off at Westerton at 0555, of which more later, I chose 0500 for my breakfast. The train left Euston exactly on time at 2115 and slid smoothly off to the north, but not exactly at lightning speed. I'd used sleeper services before so I was used to that, and at least point and crossing work didn't shake the bogies enough to wake me later in the night. Passing Watford Junction I went back to the Buffet Car to eat a rather nice lamb hotpot for an evening meal and then went back to my compartment to try and get some sleep.

I wasn't all that successful, perhaps being excited about the following day didn't help much, but I managed to get some hours in, only waking at Edinburgh when they seemed to be shunting us all over the place. I was knocked about at least three times by fairly serious bangs as various parts of the train were coupled and un-coupled. Eventually we set off to the west behind EWS 67009, as I learnt later, with only five coaches in the consist. My breakfast arrived soon afterward and it was VERY good indeed! I didn't expect an omelette, a slice of bacon, a sausage, tomato and mushrooms, as well as a bread roll and coffee but that's what I had.

After a number of twists and turns around the Scottish Lowlands we arrived at Westerton, a very small station just north west of Glasgow, exactly on time at 0555, and I got off into freezing weather and about 2ins of snow! The sleeper carried on to Fort William, but for some reason didn't go into Glasgow Central to drop anyone off, thus the change-over at Westerton. There were only three sleeper passengers doing this but before much longer a few more people turned up for their daily commute into Glasgow and Scotrail's suburban unit, 320313, soon arrived, also on time at 0610, which was very welcome as it was well heated. It stopped at every station there was before it reached Glasgow Central, at least five of them, but eventually dumped me off at what seemed to be an Underground station, but it was actually Glasgow Central Low Level so I had to climb up the stairs to the main concourse.

It was the first time I'd been there since that same date 30 years before, and surprisingly little had changed in that period, the Pendelino was even on the same platform as the P-Train was! I had over an hour before departure time, so I had another warming cup of coffee and waited. And waited. And waited........

Even though I could see the 390 sitting there the barriers were closed and no-one could board, and the departure boards didn't say which platform it was on either, alone amongst the other trains leaving there that morning. Eventually, only some 10 mins before departure, the Virgin staff opened the barriers and we all poured aboard. Once again my reserved seat was in the first coach, and it was one of the 11 coach consists, set no. 390053. Amazingly that turned out to be the last Pendelino that was built, originally named 'Mission Accomplished' but it carried no name board at all on that day. I was most impressed with the interior of the train, but then it was First Class after all. I was just taking my jacket off and making sure I had all the stuff I needed on the journey when a voice behind me said 'I think we've done this before, haven't we?' and Martin Collins was standing right behind me!

After the usual greetings Martin said that the seat reservation system on the train had got some gremlins and wasn't working at all and suggested we move back to the 2^nd coach. This gave us two advantages, we could take-over a 4 seat set for some more room and we'd also gain from a better tilt environment as each coach on a 390 takes its tilt initiation signal from the vehicle in front of it. Of course the leading coach doesn't have that advantage and always lags a little from the tilt point of view. So we moved back to the vehicle behind, taking a seat a few feet behind the leading bogie, and made ourselves comfortable. The seats themselves were very comfortable, and the table between us was very ingenious, the outer halves having folding leaves to ease movement in and out of the seats. I did notice how small the windows were however, being only half the height of the monster windows in Hastings Coach's VIP compartment! I'm not sure why they made them so low, it does rather give you the impression of looking through a tank driver's vision slit, but as we spent most of the journey talking it wasn't too much of a problem.

As with most of my previous trains on the trip 390053 left exactly on time and slid smoothly out of Glasgow Central, feeling eerily just like the APT-P 30 years previously. Unlike that previous trip there was a faint hint of daylight as we were running some 30 mins. later than my earlier trip, so there was some chance of seeing if the train was tilting or not as we headed south. By the time we reached Motherwell, only 13 miles away, it was bright enough to see the platforms etc. as we paused there to pick up other passengers, and from then on I spent much of my time gauging the amount of tilt we had on during any particular curve. On the APT-P run that wasn't possible as it was pitch dark until we were south of Carstairs and I've said before that on that occasion it was as if they'd straightened out the whole track, there being no sense of curving whatsoever. Of course in those days APT-P was running with a wholly compensating tilt system, so there should have been zero lateral forces noticeable to the passengers, but nowadays railway tilt systems don't wholly compensate for cant deficiency giving the passengers some sense that they are in a curve.

Thus it turned out, I was aware that the train was entering a curve as there was a slight sense of lateral acceleration, but the speed the train was running was wholly out of context with what my balance canals were telling me. Of course the horizon was going up and down considerably so my eyes were giving me signals that at least agreed with my balance to a certain extent. As I'm hyper-sensitive to lateral acceleration after my time working on PoP Train, APT-E and Hastings Coach etc. I would estimate that the 390s operated at around 2-3 degrees of cant deficiency, which was still comfortable, for me anyway.

One thing I did notice later on in the journey, while standing up to one side of the vehicle, was that the 390 did a similar thing to Hastings Coach when we first ran it. As the tilt on any particular curve came on I could feel it start to tilt, then it would hesitate for a moment, and then tilt some more. On Hastings Coach we found that was because the tilting bolster started to move but then the air-spring system compressed slightly because of inertia, and the body of the vehicle hesitated in similar fashion before catching up on the circular portion of the curve. I've yet to find out what type of secondary suspension the 390s use, but the effect was rather similar. I might add I only noticed this when I was standing up, and then right on the outside edge of the vehicle body. One thing that wasn't obvious was any vertical accelerations as the tilt started to come on. With the E-Train system, admittedly one of much higher performance, there was a distinct vertical component, especially when sitting in the window seats.

As we headed south the catering staff came by and asked if we'd like breakfast, and as it was included in the price of my ticket I accepted, despite the fact that I'd already had one on the Caledonian Sleeper! The Virgin breakfast was also very good and I'd recommend it to anyone, plus the bottom-less coffee cups that came with it. The staff were constantly asking us if we'd like refills all the way to Euston!

I had intended to time the run in similar fashion to the performance tables published in the various railway magazines but without recording the actual speed at at the passing points as I'd need two stop watches or a GPS and I'd have to concentrate 100% the entire time for that. I was intending to enjoy the run rather than watch for mileposts so I made sure I noted as many times as was possible and then plotted the average speed of the train at each point. As it happened I was so busy chatting to Martin that I missed a few of my plotting points, but I did catch most of them. I've posted the distance-time-ave. speed table in the Group Gallery along with my other photos, and you can see from the way the average speed changes that the performance was pretty impressive. As the train stopped at almost every major station until it got to Warrington, the speed remained almost constant at 84 mph, dropping slightly as it got further south. However after that last stop it accelerated considerably, almost reaching 90 mph average by Watford Junction. This doesn't surprise me as the flatter contours to the south enabled almost constant 125 mph running, with few grades to slow us down.

Rob Latham had asked me to text him when I knew the unit number of the train, and the time we left Glasgow as he intended to try and take photos of us passing through Crewe. This I did as we left the terminus and Rob texted me back asking if I could take some photos of the APT-P as we passed the Railway Age Museum at Crewe. Luckily we slowed to some 85 mph as we passed through Crewe or I'd have missed taking the photos, but even so it took some rapid finger movement on the shutter button! I managed to spot Rob on the platform at Crewe, but wasn't fast enough to take a photo of him, but he did manage to get some good ones of passing by as you can see on the APT-P main site.

South of Warrington, with one continuous blast of speed all the way to Euston, the 390 was seriously impressive, especially banking through the more flatter turns around the Midlands. It was on this section that I was able to notice its similarity to the Hastings Coach tilting action, but I doubt the Joe Publics would have noticed a thing, it was just VERY impressive. All too soon we were slowing for the outskirts of London and then threaded our way through the maze of tracks entering Euston. We didn't terminate on the same platform as I did in the APT-P 30 years ago, that would have been too much of a co-incidence, and we were 2 mins. down on the advertised arrival of 1212, but I still took the opportunity to take another photo of 390053 as we got off the train.

Martin had a meeting later that day so we parted company after a very enjoyable ride through nostalgia and I headed off to the Underground and Paddington. TfL seemed to have solved its problems at Edgeware Rd. by then and the short trip was relatively painless, so before much longer I was looking for the Newport HST. This one actually existed to I was able to take up my reserved seat and head of to the west under the care of 43169. 125 mph in an HST has none of the drama of the same speed in a 390 or APT-P, perhaps it's because the Western Region main line is such an effective race track being almost flat and having no curves to speak of, but in some way it was a bit of an anti-climax. As this part of my trip was in daylight I did note the E-Train's speed record start and end points but sadly I was unable to take photos as the Sun's glare on the windows wrecked my attempts.

We arrived at Newport 4 minutes late at 1508 and I only had a 20 minute wait for my Arriva shuttle back to Lydney. 158818 duly droned into the station to collect me and the other passengers, and managed to leave right on time once again. We were actually a minute EARLY into Lydney, which was a surprise, but I overall I was quite impressed. Arriving one minute early after almost 23 hours of train travel, and some 1200 odd miles, wasn't too bad I thought.

I'm very pleased I managed to do the trip, it was certainly a nostalgic landmark for me and enable me to ride on many services that I'd never done before.

'Mission Accomplished' indeed!

I've tried to upload my photos to the Gallery, and indeed the album itself is there, but they have to be approved so no-one can see them at the moment!

I have more photos to add, and titles as well of course, but until I can get to the Album there'll be a bit of a delay I'm afraid.

Regards
Kit

Hi Kit

I am a moderator of the group too - so have now approved your pictures, they should be available for all to see now - upload the others and I'll accept them too...


Rob
www.APT-P.com

I've changed the group settings so photo's will now be displayed straight away.

Take care,
Andy

P.S When did the P-train receive full yellow cab ends at the Railway Age?

Magic, thanks Rob.

I've uploaded the rest and merged my other album for the run as well.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "aptp370" <rob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kit
>
> I am a moderator of the group too - so have now approved your pictures, they should be available for all to see now - upload the others and I'll accept them too...
>
>
> Rob
> www.APT-P.com
>

> span.EmailStyle37 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:2039887769; mso-list-template-ids:1574712130;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level2 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @list l0:level3 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level4 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level5 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level6 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level7 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} -->

Paul,

I suspect the issue maybe the one that I mentioned in my report.

The train carries it's own 'profile' of the track so that when it gets the go signal from the leading coach's transducer, and if it's been 'OK'd by the track mounted thingie too, it follows a pre-determined tilt programme that has been generated from data drawn from the civil engineers some time previously. If there have been changes to the curve geometry and that data hasn't updated to that which is on the train, there will be some differences in the amount of cant deficiency experienced by the passengers.

With the original PoP, E-Train and Hastings Coach systems this couldn't happen as they responded to actual real-time track derived inputs. The downside of those were that it responded to any random inputs from track irregularities, point and crossing work etc.

Are you susceptible to car or sea sickness too? I recall that the APT-P team found that there was some connection with people prone to such sickness and those who complained of tilt sickness too.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Paul Rowlinson <paul.rowlinson@...> wrote:
>
> Kit
>
> Great account. In my work I am fortunate to make several trips a year on the Pendelino mostly to Manchester but sometimes Birmingham and occasionally Glasgow. I would concur that the train is impressive as is the 1st class service. For those that are able to book in advance and specify trains you can sometimes find a 1st class ticket cheaper than standard - why I don't know but there are bargains to be had.
>
> I usually work on the train with a laptop and you don't tend to notice the tilt that much but on several trips recently, if I have stopped working and put the laptop away to read or simply look out of the window, I have encountered this dreaded tilt nausea in mild form. Doesn't happen if I am concentrating on the laptop. The worst occasion was last year when I went to Glasgow and by the time I got off the train I was feeling decidedly ill. After 20 minutes I was fine. The tilt system on the Pendelino is supposed to counteract this by not fully compensating but it doesn't always have that effect! I usually travel in coach B or J, the second one in. In one very unfortunate incident, I was sitting in a window seat and the coach tilted so violently I banged my head on the coach side. I always specify aisle seats now! I wonder if anyone else has recently experienced this nauseous feeling - has Alstom done something to the tilt system because I never used to experience this - or is it my age!
>
> regards
>
> Paul Rowlinson
> Head of Operations
> Dinwiddy House
> 189-205 Pentonville Road
> London N1 9NF
>
> Tel: 0207 812 0022
> Mob: 07787 834807
>
> www.smsstudent.co.uk

After seeing the photo of the Piper Tri-Pacer with the G-APTP reggie in the Miscellaneous section of the photos, I looked up G-APTE in the CAA database.

It turns out G-APTE was a Westland Widgeon helicopter and I found one photo of it in the Air Britain files. You can JUST read the reggie in between the legs of the undercarriage. <g>

Regards
Kit

> mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @list l0:level3 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level4 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level5 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level6 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level7 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} -->

John Harris and Brian King were interviewed at home on BBC East Midlands Today (evening news) about the needless cancellation of the APT Project tonight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-16178784

Regards

Nick

That's excellent stuff, two guys who know telling just like it is!

And even the Beeb excelled themselves, the shot where a Pendelino morphs into APT-P on the curve is quite superb.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:
>
> John Harris and Brian King were interviewed at home on BBC East Midlands Today (evening news) about the needless cancellation of the APT Project tonight.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-16178784
>
> Regards
>
> Nick
>

Jolly good stuff.

Shame the BBC did not take any notice of the APT-E re-union in August, as they could have had an even bigger story to tell.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...> wrote:
>
> That's excellent stuff, two guys who know telling just like it is!
>
> And even the Beeb excelled themselves, the shot where a Pendelino morphs into APT-P on the curve is quite superb.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Wheat <wheaty@> wrote:
> >
> > John Harris and Brian King were interviewed at home on BBC East Midlands Today (evening news) about the needless cancellation of the APT Project tonight.
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-16178784
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Nick
> >
>

Hi All

just come across the BRB Annual Report of 1969 that contained a photo' of the signing of an agreement with the Budd Company.

See FILES section of this group for the scan...


Rob
www.APT-P.com

EXCELLENT link Alastair, well soptted!

For a change it's pretty well written too, only a few errors but understandable ones.

I've posted a comment already, with more to come no doubt, and I mentioned both train's web sites in there.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Alastair McCulloch <alastair_elmarie@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2012/01/11/essays-when-br-met-bl-the-advanced-passenger-train/
>

http://tinyurl.com/7pjxeer

Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer development manager and British Rail carriage steward

www.hmrs.org.uk

transfersdev@...
List owner: LMSReg

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lmsreg

List owner: Trackwork

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/trackwork/

Hi All,
Just to prove that I am not dead, I have just posted 3 new updates on the site. Work is still on going on E train.

Project De-skin of PC1 , Project Horns and Project Tilt are all in hand.

http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/March2012/March2012.html

http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/Mels_Project_1/Mel_showcase.html

http://www.apt-e.org/Barry_May/Collection_1/BarryMay_1.html

If anyones files bits that dont work, please let me know.

Regards

Paul

Thank you so much for the Barry May collection, the release of the POP train pics is perfect timimg.

cheers

Shane

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Silver_Dream_Racer" <PAUL@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> Just to prove that I am not dead, I have just posted 3 new updates on the site. Work is still on going on E train.
>
> Project De-skin of PC1 , Project Horns and Project Tilt are all in hand.
>
> http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/March2012/March2012.html
>
> http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/Mels_Project_1/Mel_showcase.html
>
> http://www.apt-e.org/Barry_May/Collection_1/BarryMay_1.html
>
> If anyones files bits that dont work, please let me know.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>

On 10/04/2012 16:58, Ball, Gordon wrote:

> Thanks Paul, very interesting to see the updates.
>
> Flicking through the photos from Barry May, I saw the close-ups of
> the various carriages stuck in the track bed. At first glance (as a
> non-expert) it looked like some form of novel experiment on submerged
> trackwork! But what really happened?

Looks like there's quite a story there. The peak, a couple of Mk1s and
the POP train all seem to have gone straight through the arrester at the
end of the line, presumably at some speed...

James Moody
--
aka: Major Denis Bloodnok | (¯\
http://www.vsr.org.uk | \ \ /¯)
| \ \___/ /
And then it comes to be | |/ _)| )
That the soothing light | ( (|_| )
At the end of your tunnel | \ /
Is just a freight train coming your way | |====|

Hi all,
To cut a long story short, here is what happened!

It had been some time since any train had run on the test track, so the tracks and rust, and to added to the situation, it has been raining for sometime. POP train started one of its proving runs, as always it always did when no train had used the test track for some time. On the falling gradient the train speeded up, at the normal break board, the brakes where applied, and it just slide on the greasy rails, and yes, went straight through the arrester bed, which hadnt been re-fitted since the wagon test (IE E for experimental) and foram everywhere. The whole train ran off the end of the test track, and luckily, under the road bridge.

I could say loads more, but I am sure Kit / others will have more to add.

Regards

Paul

From: Martin Dallaghan

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:37 AM

To: advanced-passenger-train@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: <APT Group> What was the POP Crash? (Barry May's Photos)

May I ask where this was? Looks like the end of the Mickleover Test Track? 

 

Old Dalby.

I wasn't there but got a lot of good use out of the instrumentation traces.

 

Legend has it that the hapless driver was sent home to change his trousers, and no wonder because he knew the rails ran out before the overbridge and if the train were to concertina it could be 'curtains'. Because the wheels locked a considerable distance from the end of the track, and because it was immediately obvious that the train was decelerating very gradually, he'd had an agonisingly long time to think about it. 

 

I did hear that the deceleration on riding the ballast was about 1/2g, which must have thrown people and things around, though I only heard about one person being injured - by a fire extinguisher that broke its moorings.

 

Wanting to know how bad the wheel flats on the locomotive were, I asked Derby Loco to give me the diameters before and after re-turning. When the figures came back, the wheels had ended up bigger after turning than before!

That was one of those little straws in the wind that eventually led BR to keep records of each and every individual wheelset, rather than just shuffle them around.

 

David 1/2d

 

  

Martin Dallaghan 07782134046

---

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
From: bloodnok@...
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:28:27 +1000
Subject: Re: <APT Group> What was the POP Crash? (Barry May's Photos)

 

On 10/04/2012 16:58, Ball, Gordon wrote:

> Thanks Paul, very interesting to see the updates.
>
> Flicking through the photos from Barry May, I saw the close-ups of
> the various carriages stuck in the track bed. At first glance (as a
> non-expert) it looked like some form of novel experiment on submerged
> trackwork! But what really happened?

Looks like there's quite a story there. The peak, a couple of Mk1s and
the POP train all seem to have gone straight through the arrester at the
end of the line, presumably at some speed...

James Moody
--
aka: Major Denis Bloodnok | (¯\
http://www.vsr.org.uk | \ \ /¯)
| \ \___/ /
And then it comes to be | |/ _)| )
That the soothing light | ( (|_| )
At the end of your tunnel | \ /
Is just a freight train coming your way | |====|

 

Paul has it pretty much on the button, that's exactly what happened, with one item missing, me...... <g>

It was right after New Year on January 9th 1973, and is often called 'The January 9th incident' as a result. As luck would have it I was heavily involved in some E-Train work at the time and hadn't allocated myself onto the POP Train tests, and it was the first time POP Train had gone ANYwhere without me aboard! A few people have suggested that me not being there was the real reason it fell off the end <g>

It was at the north end of the test track at Edwalton, way past the embankment north of the A606, and BR's ownwership of the track ceased at the bridge. The farmer who owned the land north of the bridge had parked his tractor thingie under the bridge the previous weekend and the Peak missed it by inches! I bet he didn't park it there again.....

A few things I gleaned from Barry's excellent piccies were that POP Train was running with E1 bogies, complete with traction motors (!) under the outboard ends and an SA bogie with the 'V Twin' secondary suspension mod installed in the centre. Not only that, it also had the tiny 2 person VIP campartment fitted to PC3, it appears in a number of the photos.

The winter weather appears to have been the real reason for the crash, there was not only rust and other stuff on the rail head but also wet leaves as well. At the brake application point the loco brakes locked, followed almost immediately afterward by the train brakes. It became apparent pretty soon that no matter how many 'brake off/brake on' applications were made the train wasn't going to stop and the loco crew went back down the corridor into the rear cab after warning the test crew over the intercom. They already knew there was a problem though as the milepost caller was still calling mileposts at the same rate as before! Everyone sat on the floor of the vehicles with their backs to something solid but the 'crash' was very gentle apparently, and little damage was done except to items not bolted down, as can be seen in some more of Barry's photos.

We had a similar sort of incident with Hastings Coach many years later but we didn't go off the end as the brakes suddenly grabbed as we left the north end of the run-around loop, but by that time they were on Emergency Brake setting and we stopped VERY hard indeed!

The REALLY silly thing about the Jan 9th event was that only weeks before we'd tested the crash barrier which was intended to mitigate against EXACTLY that sort of event! As we'd not re-moulded the foam block by then, the only occasion the barrier was actually needed was the only time it wasn't there!

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Silver_Dream_Racer" <PAUL@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> To cut a long story short, here is what happened!
>
> It had been some time since any train had run on the test track, so the tracks and rust, and to added to the situation, it has been raining for sometime. POP train started one of its proving runs, as always it always did when no train had used the test track for some time. On the falling gradient the train speeded up, at the normal break board, the brakes where applied, and it just slide on the greasy rails, and yes, went straight through the arrester bed, which hadnt been re-fitted since the wagon test (IE E for experimental) and foram everywhere. The whole train ran off the end of the test track, and luckily, under the road bridge.
>
> I could say loads more, but I am sure Kit / others will have more to add.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>