Last of the 4 video's now post

Enjoy

Mark

On 23 September 2011 06:26, gmnauk <gmnauk@...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> First of videos
>
> http://youtu.be/5gfI0HtEkHE
>
> and pictures
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mainlytrains/sets/72157627606104297/
>
> Mark
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Mark <gmnauk@...> wrote:
>>
>> Kit
>>
>> Got a series of video's and photo from the day when iget home after being at
>> pump house will post them
>>
>> Mark
>> On 22 Sep 2011 20:48, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...> wrote:
>> > As I write this Hastings Coach is en route from the Walthamstow Pump House
>> Museum to her new home at the Electric Railway Museum in Coventry!
>> >
>> > The only bad news is I'm not there to see it happen as I've been stricken
>> with a hefty lung infection and I'n on some seriously powerful pills that
>> make it inadvisable to drive for a day or so. Couldn't be worse timing
>> really.
>> >
>> > I owe a big debt to Nick Evans who's stepped into the breach to look after
>> things in my place, so Nick, beers are on me sometime soon.
>> >
>> > Hastings Coach should be in her new home some time tomorrow morning with
>> luck, and then we can start work on her at last.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Kit
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



--
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/gmna

http://www.amazon.co.uk/shops/gmnabooks

Hi

Looking at the CCTV I note Lab4 is now safely on the track at Coventry.

Mark

Mark,

Those are great, thanks very much for the filming and for posting them on the Net. It was almost like being there, and bought back memories of getting E-Train out of the NRM at York.

The highlight was Nick's 'over the shoulder grin' as Lab 4's leading wheel set exactly aligned with the ramp up to the trailer. <g>

What was the graunching sound and the big bang when she was almost out of the gates though? No-one seemed to take much notice and continued with the 350 point turn to get out!

Nick phoned me on Friday to say they'd installed her on the track pad at Coventry so I'm pleased to say 'Job Done Gentlemen'!

Well done everyone involved, my sincere thanks and I'm just sad I wasn't able to be there in person.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "gmnauk" <gmnauk@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> First of videos
>
> http://youtu.be/5gfI0HtEkHE
>
> and pictures
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mainlytrains/sets/72157627606104297/
>
> Mark

Pictures at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mainlytrains/

Kit

The sound was at a point of no return...

It was checked out after nothing was found. May have been the trailer
hitting the kerb again. We left a few marks in the local kerbs with all the
moves out.

Mark

> "misterrtilt" wrote:

What was the graunching sound and the big bang when she was almost out of the gates though? No-one seemed to take much notice and continued with the 350 point turn to get out!

Well done to Kit and everyone else involved in bringing Lab 4 to Coventry.

Shane

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Mark <gmnauk@...> wrote:
>
> Kit
>
> The sound was at a point of no return...
>
> It was checked out after nothing was found. May have been the trailer
> hitting the kerb again. We left a few marks in the local kerbs with all the
> moves out.
>
> Mark
>
>
> > "misterrtilt" wrote:
> What was the graunching sound and the big bang when she was almost out of the gates though? No-one seemed to take much notice and continued with the 350 point turn to get out!
>

The Pendulum Cars are fairly well-known (there was another famous one
on the Santa Fe)

The original one (from the '30s IIRC) is considerably more
"interesting" as it derives from an inspiration closer to the
Railplane... or perhaps the de Havilland Mosquito. The demonstrator
body was built of plywood... and there is an interesting shot of it
in print that shows it with antique-style marker lights, looking
rather similar to that picture of Mallard with the oil lamps
installed... cognitive dissonance!

I had the original patent drawings and will look to see if I can find
them. Note that the tilt system changed a bit between the
demonstrator (which had high-pivot tilt) and the 6000 (which uses
internal 'towers' and very long, relatively soft springs - the
'improved' system). There are a couple of reasonably good articles
on the Web -- again, I'll have to look and see if I have URLs for them.


RME

Oh, thats not good. P train to Coventry then!!!!!

There's not enough room there for something that long Paul. And can you IMAGINE how much it would cost and how much work it would be doing it? Thank you no!

I note that Mr. Lenz, the manager at Crewe, says they're '.....always ready to welcome volunteers to help operate the site'. That is unless they actually know something about their largest exhibit of course!

They'd probably be a lot better off if they hadn't ejected Rob and his team from the museum many years aho now.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Silver_Dream_Racer" <PAUL@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, thats not good. P train to Coventry then!!!!!
>

This comes up maybe twice every year and the answer is always the same.

There isn't enough expertise available to run APT-E again, no matter how much money was available. The various systems on the train interact with each other so much we'd need at least half a dozen of the original team working on it again to do that, and there's only one.... (Sounds a bit like 'Highlander'.....)

As for APT-P I'd think that Rob Latham is better equipped to reply to that but I expect it would be much more likely so long as you could get someone up the tree in Network Rail on your side. That would be MOST unlikely I suspect.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Ian Ellis <ianellis_68@...> wrote:
>
>
> I was just wondering if it was physically possible to get the APT-E or APT-P running on the rails again? If so, does anyone have an approximate cost for getting either train up to the required standard for use on the current rail network?
>
> Regards,
> Ian
>

I have some difficulties translating the article into comprehensible
American English.

What exactly is the restrictive covenant on the lease respecting 'the
rail heritage of the town'?

vs.

What are the 'development options' that are supposedly being
considered at the end?

Where I come from, "development options" is a codeword for putting
some sort of nominally-profitable construction on part, perhaps most,
of the site, always with some lip service paid to using "some part"
of the profits for a public good thing of some kind. Will someone who
knows the whole story please explain what's up in clearer terms?

(And would it be possible for whoever takes up the lease to bring
Latham & Co. back on board???)


RME

LOL, I was joking Kit, just put P train on our railway track, next E train, POP3! HSFV1 and Hastings.......

You can always dream!!!!

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...> wrote:
>
> There's not enough room there for something that long Paul. And can you IMAGINE how much it would cost and how much work it would be doing it? Thank you no!
>
> I note that Mr. Lenz, the manager at Crewe, says they're '.....always ready to welcome volunteers to help operate the site'. That is unless they actually know something about their largest exhibit of course!
>
> They'd probably be a lot better off if they hadn't ejected Rob and his team from the museum many years aho now.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Silver_Dream_Racer" <PAUL@> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, thats not good. P train to Coventry then!!!!!
> >
>

This December the 7th is the 30th Anniversary of the APT-P entering passenger service on the WCML, the first run being the southbound one from Glasgow Central to Euston, departing at 7.00 am that morning. I was one of only 13 real fare paying passengers on it, after having picketed the LM Region's Offices via letter and phone (no email back then....) for some months to ensure that I did get aboard that first run. It took some doing on my part as I had to hire a car to get me from Derby up to Glasgow, an overnight stay in the hotel that was part of the station and then had to get back to Derby by train after I'd ridden down to Euston.

History now knows that that first southbound run was the only one of the first batch of service runs that was trouble free, mainly due to the terrible winter of 1981, which caused the HK brakes to freeze, the pantographs to lose contact with the wire and for the tilt cooling system to overcool the oil and cause trouble with the tilt responses. Later on the trains became very much more reliable, but thanks to our media only being interested in 'failures' they never saw fit to publish any news about that period of the train's running.

This year being the 30th anniversary I'm going to do it all again, on the correct day, December 7th, and on the nearest timing I can manage to the original's, Virgin's 0737 am Class 390 Pendelino to Euston. As I'm starting from Lydney this entails an overnight sleeper to Glasgow and they only go from Euston now, so first I have to get there! I'll be leaving Lydney on the 1717 Arriva Trains departure to Newport the day before, swapping to First Great Western's 1809 to Paddington and then via Underground to Euston in time to catch the First Scotrail 2115 sleeper to Glasgow.

Well, not ACTUALLY Glasgow as the darn thing by-passes Scotland's second city on its way to Fort William and drops all Glasgow bound passengers off at Westerton (where?) from whence we have to catch a commuter special into the Central Station at 0610 in the morning!

After the Pendelino gets into Euston I do the whole thing in reverse, arriving back home around 1558 with luck. I first thought of this it was two years ago, but the 28th Anniversary didn't seem so notable so I delayed it till now. Back then I costed the trip at £270 or so, travelling First Class on the sleeper and the Pendelino and Second everywhere else. With the aid of a Senior Railcard (there are SOME advantages to being ancient!) and some better planning, it's cost £215 this time around, and I get home an hour earlier. I bought the tickets on-line, which was a bit of a trial as the various web sites didn't take account of my railcard in the same way, but I managed it and all the tickets arrived this morning.

I say 'all' advisedly as I have SEVENTEEN diferent pieces of railway ticket to look after during my trip! See piccie either attached or in the galleries, and I'll try and document the trip as I go, with timings where possible and photos as well.

Regards
Kit

 

If there is no-one in the railway network seems to want to tell me about it!

The Westerton diversion business has been the only option offered to me for the last two years. In any case a 17 minute connection sounds a little too tight for me as the Virgin 0737 is THE essential part of the whole trip. I used the Cheltenham to Glasgow sleeper service in the past and despite travelling at 40 mph a lot of the time, and stopping for ages at stations like Preston, was ALWAYS late at Glasgow.

This just goes to show how stupid the current system of working out what train you need is. Quite how Joe and Jane Publics manage it I have no idea, when someone like me, who has an intrinsic knowledge of what stations are where and what routes work best, still can't find a routing like this.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart Kennedy" <stuartikennedy@...> wrote:
>
> There is a direct Glasgow sleeper that leaves Euston at 23.50 arrives 07.20 without a change at Westerton?
>
> Stu
>
>
> From: misterrtilt
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:57 PM
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: <APT Group> APT-P's 30th Anniversary run.
>
>
>
> This December the 7th is the 30th Anniversary of the APT-P entering passenger service on the WCML, the first run being the southbound one
> from Glasgow Central to Euston, departing at 7.00 am that morning. I was one of only 13 real fare paying passengers on it, after having
> picketed the LM Region's Offices via letter and phone (no email back then....) for some months to ensure that I did get aboard that first
> run. It took some doing on my part as I had to hire a car to get me from Derby up to Glasgow, an overnight stay in the hotel that was part of the station and then had to get back to Derby by train after I'd ridden down to Euston.
>
> History now knows that that first southbound run was the only one of the first batch of service runs that was trouble free, mainly due to the terrible winter of 1981, which caused the HK brakes to freeze, the pantographs to lose contact with the wire and for the tilt cooling system to overcool the oil and cause trouble with the tilt responses. Later on the trains became very much more reliable, but thanks to our media only being interested in 'failures' they never saw fit to publish any news about that period of the train's running.
>
> This year being the 30th anniversary I'm going to do it all again, on the correct day, December 7th, and on the nearest timing I can manage
> to the original's, Virgin's 0737 am Class 390 Pendelino to Euston. As I'm starting from Lydney this entails an overnight sleeper to Glasgow
> and they only go from Euston now, so first I have to get there! I'll be leaving Lydney on the 1717 Arriva Trains departure to Newport the day before, swapping to First Great Western's 1809 to Paddington and then via Underground to Euston in time to catch the First Scotrail 2115 sleeper to Glasgow.
>
> Well, not ACTUALLY Glasgow as the darn thing by-passes Scotland's second city on its way to Fort William and drops all Glasgow bound
> passengers off at Westerton (where?) from whence we have to catch a commuter special into the Central Station at 0610 in the morning!
>
> After the Pendelino gets into Euston I do the whole thing in reverse, arriving back home around 1558 with luck.
>
> I first thought of this it was two years ago, but the 28th Anniversary didn't seem so notable so I delayed it till now. Back then I costed the trip at £270 or so, travelling First Class on the sleeper and the Pendelino and Second everywhere else. With the aid of a Senior Railcard (there are SOME advantages to being ancient!) and some better planning, it's cost £196 this time around, and I get home an hour earlier. I bought the tickets on-line, which was a bit of a trial as the various web sites didn't take account of my railcard in the same way, but I managed it and all the tickets arrived this morning.
>
> I say 'all' advisedly as I have SEVENTEEN diferent pieces of railway ticket to look after during my trip! See piccie either attached or in
> the galleries, and I'll try and document the trip as I go, with timings where possible and photos as well.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 7:49 AM

> This just goes to show how stupid the current
> system of working out what train you need is.
> Quite how Joe and Jane Publics manage it I have
> no idea,

Try bussing it!

In the run-up to privatisation I was once stuck in
a hotel in Wales running up a huge phone bill
ringing round rail enquiry call centres. Each
embryo TOC said that it could only give out its
own train times and that Connections no longer
existed. Eventually I found a guy at Shrewsbury
with common sense and a Bradshaw who helped me
navigate a route back to Derby.

On a train to the NRM at the moment. Stunningly
beautiful dawn, with sun coming over the mist.
Hornby are sponsoring a 9 day Toy Train event over
half term, and G1MRA are out in force with Live
Steam. Another year maybe we'll see Alan's G1
E-Train running there :-)

David 1/2d

I am trying to find out what influenced the design of the Mk3 coach bogie -
without much success. Can anyone give any pointers?
Was it a spin off from derby research?

Best wishes

Tanya



Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer development manager and British Rail carriage steward

www.hmrs.org.uk

transfersdev@...
List owner: LMSReg

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lmsreg

List owner: Trackwork

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/trackwork/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tanya Jackson" <tanyajane@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 1:44 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>;
<BRCoachingStock@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> Mk3 Bogie design

> I am trying to find out what influenced the design of the Mk3 coach
> bogie -
> without much success. Can anyone give any pointers?
> Was it a spin off from derby research?
>

Not it was not, Tanya!

At least, the design was not though the development may have been.

All that follows is hearsay, but all from within a single building: Trent
House, RTC, Derby.

As I understand it, the bogie was designed by two of Duncan Fish's Carriage
section draughtsmen. This could be the clue you need to find whatever
records remain.

One might have expected the Bogie Section to have had a hand in it, but
that didn't appear to happen. Nor did the APT Mechanical Design section. No
records there.

However Testing Section might well have some information about how the
prototype was turned into the familiar production bogie.

I'm sure you are familiar with the BT10 but for those who are not:

B means two axle, T means Trailer (ie unpowered) and 10 is a design serial
number.
It has an H frame with swing link secondary lateral suspension and air
bag-type secondary vertical suspension stabilised to the swinging bolster
by light horizontal links. The axlebox was hinged to the H frame at one
end, with a single helical spring enclosing a hydraulic damper at the
other.
The rail-quality damper of course was developed through the Research
programme, and the airspring may have been inspired by E-Train.

I heard that on trial stability was poor because the axlebox hinges lacked
enough lateral stiffness. So the bogies were modified with links coupling
the spring end of each axlebox to the opposite leg of the H frame. (That's
not quite how the links attach, but it's the basic intention and outcome.)
However these legs had big holes in for the dampers, and I was aghast when
I saw it. Frankly it had the look of a train crash in the making.
I imagine that some further development took place . . .

Suffice it to say that the bogie has been very smooth and stable, and
hasn't fallen to pieces in service.

I do have one uncomfortable reminiscence, but that was not the fault of the
bogie.
P-Train also has air secondary vertical suspension, though of the tyre type
rather than bag type. We wanted to know whether or not it would be
necessary to evacuate any car that lost air. So I designed a test in which
I rode in a bare Mark III body shell at Line Speed along a stretch of WCML.
I was equipped only with a Jacobmeter, which was a portable ride meter
(named after Mike Jacob who worked for me then) whose acceleration results
needed writing down on paper every 10 seconds. Suffice it to say that at
125mph I was unable to write. Well actually I was unable to stay on the
metal floor, and when I got out I was well bruised. I found my best tactic
was to lie down, and make sure my head didn't hit the deck.
The precise numerical results and the correlation to P-Train masses and
stiffnesses clearly mattered not: the accelerations obviously exceeded 1g
and would do so on a P-Train as well. Even though passengers would have
seats and carpet, there was no question at all that cars without air must
be evacuated or the train taken out of service (or both).

David 1/2d

Kit, why didn’t you just book the ticket on the Glasgow Sleeper that leaves
Euston at 23:30? As for Westerton it’s just to the west of Glasgow.

Since i was also on the train that day (although on the staff side), I will hopefully join you on the 7th - thanks for reminding me. Chance to coorect the assertion that the HK brakes ever froze up - they were operated by a water/glycol mixture suitable to -25deg C. Leak - probably; freeze never!

See you on the 7th.

Martin

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart Kennedy" <stuartikennedy@...> wrote:
>
> There is a direct Glasgow sleeper that leaves Euston at 23.50 arrives 07.20 without a change at Westerton?
>
> Stu
>
>
> From: misterrtilt
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:57 PM
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: <APT Group> APT-P's 30th Anniversary run.
>
>
>
> This December the 7th is the 30th Anniversary of the APT-P entering passenger service on the WCML, the first run being the southbound one
> from Glasgow Central to Euston, departing at 7.00 am that morning. I was one of only 13 real fare paying passengers on it, after having
> picketed the LM Region's Offices via letter and phone (no email back then....) for some months to ensure that I did get aboard that first
> run. It took some doing on my part as I had to hire a car to get me from Derby up to Glasgow, an overnight stay in the hotel that was part of the station and then had to get back to Derby by train after I'd ridden down to Euston.
>
> History now knows that that first southbound run was the only one of the first batch of service runs that was trouble free, mainly due to the terrible winter of 1981, which caused the HK brakes to freeze, the pantographs to lose contact with the wire and for the tilt cooling system to overcool the oil and cause trouble with the tilt responses. Later on the trains became very much more reliable, but thanks to our media only being interested in 'failures' they never saw fit to publish any news about that period of the train's running.
>
> This year being the 30th anniversary I'm going to do it all again, on the correct day, December 7th, and on the nearest timing I can manage
> to the original's, Virgin's 0737 am Class 390 Pendelino to Euston. As I'm starting from Lydney this entails an overnight sleeper to Glasgow
> and they only go from Euston now, so first I have to get there! I'll be leaving Lydney on the 1717 Arriva Trains departure to Newport the day before, swapping to First Great Western's 1809 to Paddington and then via Underground to Euston in time to catch the First Scotrail 2115 sleeper to Glasgow.
>
> Well, not ACTUALLY Glasgow as the darn thing by-passes Scotland's second city on its way to Fort William and drops all Glasgow bound
> passengers off at Westerton (where?) from whence we have to catch a commuter special into the Central Station at 0610 in the morning!
>
> After the Pendelino gets into Euston I do the whole thing in reverse, arriving back home around 1558 with luck.
>
> I first thought of this it was two years ago, but the 28th Anniversary didn't seem so notable so I delayed it till now. Back then I costed the trip at £270 or so, travelling First Class on the sleeper and the Pendelino and Second everywhere else. With the aid of a Senior Railcard (there are SOME advantages to being ancient!) and some better planning, it's cost £196 this time around, and I get home an hour earlier. I bought the tickets on-line, which was a bit of a trial as the various web sites didn't take account of my railcard in the same way, but I managed it and all the tickets arrived this morning.
>
> I say 'all' advisedly as I have SEVENTEEN diferent pieces of railway ticket to look after during my trip! See piccie either attached or in
> the galleries, and I'll try and document the trip as I go, with timings where possible and photos as well.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>

Andy,

Possibly because there isn't one........

At least according to the National Railways Enquiries web site, nor the First Scotrail site either. There IS one that leaves at 2350 but that arrives at 0720 and that's a little too close for comfort for me.

As I said before, trying to sort out the best choice of trains to travel almost anywhere using the current web based timetable is a nightmare, customer friendly they are NOT! Not to mention the fact that it currently crashes Windows Explorer 9 and I have to use Firefox to read the darn thing.


Martin,

I'll look out for you then, I'm in seat 12A in Coach K. I had hoped to be in the same seat as I was in 1981, which was the rearmost left hand seat on the train, but that's apparently a Standard Class seat on a Class 390 and I'm travelling First this time. In 1981 there were only First Class seats available on that first run, and as the inhabitable coaches were to the rear of the two Power Cars (the front two coaches were kept empty of passengers) the current situation where First Class is nearest the buffers at Euston can't be reproduced.

Gordon,

That issue of 'Modern Railways' was a good find indeed. I have the same issue and I was less than impressed with Roger Ford's write-up on the trip too. He never did seem to be wholly in favour of the whole APT project, but then his usual railway contacts were people in 'The Real Railway', as the CM&EE Dept were prone to call themselves. The only media person who seemed to have a proper grasp of what the R&D Dept were doing was Colin Marsden, and he even he managed some horrendous errors in his photo captions sometimes.

One day the real story will be told, mark my words!

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Scott" <andrewscott@...>
wrote:

>
> Kit, why didn't you just book the ticket on the Glasgow Sleeper
> that leaves Euston at 23:30? As for Westerton it's just to the west > of Glasgow.

Kit,

You can download a full copy of the GB rail timetable from Network Rail's website. Search for timetable and it will take you to it. Very useful for connecting canal boats and trains!

Marin

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...> wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
> Possibly because there isn't one........
>
> At least according to the National Railways Enquiries web site, nor the First Scotrail site either. There IS one that leaves at 2350 but that arrives at 0720 and that's a little too close for comfort for me.
>
> As I said before, trying to sort out the best choice of trains to travel almost anywhere using the current web based timetable is a nightmare, customer friendly they are NOT! Not to mention the fact that it currently crashes Windows Explorer 9 and I have to use Firefox to read the darn thing.
>
>
> Martin,
>
> I'll look out for you then, I'm in seat 12A in Coach K. I had hoped to be in the same seat as I was in 1981, which was the rearmost left hand seat on the train, but that's apparently a Standard Class seat on a Class 390 and I'm travelling First this time. In 1981 there were only First Class seats available on that first run, and as the inhabitable coaches were to the rear of the two Power Cars (the front two coaches were kept empty of passengers) the current situation where First Class is nearest the buffers at Euston can't be reproduced.
>
> Gordon,
>
> That issue of 'Modern Railways' was a good find indeed. I have the same issue and I was less than impressed with Roger Ford's write-up on the trip too. He never did seem to be wholly in favour of the whole APT project, but then his usual railway contacts were people in 'The Real Railway', as the CM&EE Dept were prone to call themselves. The only media person who seemed to have a proper grasp of what the R&D Dept were doing was Colin Marsden, and he even he managed some horrendous errors in his photo captions sometimes.
>
> One day the real story will be told, mark my words!
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Scott" <andrewscott@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Kit, why didn't you just book the ticket on the Glasgow Sleeper
> > that leaves Euston at 23:30? As for Westerton it's just to the west > of Glasgow.
>

Hiya,

I am constructing a timeline of important events in the RTC/APT/HST saga and
am trying to pinpoint the date of construction of HSFV-1. I believe it went
through more than one incarnation? Any help would be appreciated.

Best wishes

Tanya

Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer development manager and British Rail carriage steward

www.hmrs.org.uk

transfersdev@...
List owner: LMSReg

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lmsreg

List owner: Trackwork

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/trackwork/

I have been reading Johnston and Long, p454 where it says...

“Jones and his team had a deep conviction in the potential value of this
fundamental investigation in particular, and in scientific methods in
general. Otherwise, criticism, and even ridicule, of research proposals
which sometimes appeared naïve to the traditional mind could have had a
withering effect upon their work.”

Does this really reflect the attitude to APT research from other departments
of BR?


Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer development manager and British Rail carriage steward

www.hmrs.org.uk

> Does this really reflect the attitude to APT research from other departments of BR?

Not half! That's what even the English call Understatement.

Withering scorn, often expressed in macho blue ribaldry.

I mean, look at Kit's HAIR back then - awesome* or what ! ( * Substitute
own favourite unpleasantness.)
And all those pop rivets and 2BA bolts - er, where do the wings go, Sonny?

To be fair they were just as suspicious of the budding P-Train team in
their midst.
And the two Derby Works were deeply sceptical of both sets of RTC bankers.

There was often a hail of either irritation or banter, but in practical
terms my Mechanical Design colleagues and I got good natured and thoroughly
competent cooperation from all camps. Anyone a bit prickly or up-themselves
didn't.
It's a guy thing Tanya . . .

David 1/2d

From: Tanya Jackson
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 8:21 PM
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: <APT Group> criticism and ridicule

> I have spent some time in traditional carriages that I swear spent more
> time off than on the rails - and they didn't need wings.

It doesn't take that much of a dipped railjoint to make a wheelset take to
the air.

On P-train we used Research figures for average trackbed stiffness to
calculate the Bounce frequency of a wheelset on the rails. Then set the
primary suspension frequency so that the bogie was moving downwards just at
the point where the wheelset was trying to come upwards. Thus the primary
vertical dampers held the wheelset down on the rails as hard as was going
to happen, and when they'd finished the primary springs were still holding
it down because by then the bogie frame had nodded into the dip itself.

That kind of sum leads to your feeling that:

> I have never felt so safe at speed on a railway as I have with BT10, or
> more modern bogies under me,

>To be fair they were just as suspicious of the budding P-Train team in
>their midst.
>And the two Derby Works were deeply sceptical of both sets of RTC bankers.

> So there were basically three groups at one stage; two sets of
> researchers and the group building the p - APT-P train?

What I had in mind was:
- a Design Team in M&EE, mixed from ex Research APT Design people and M&EE
people.
- technical support from APT Development, left behind in Research under
Alan Wickens and Alastair Gilchrist.
- bogies and power cars being built in Derby Loco Works
- trailer bodies being built in Derby Litchurch Lane.
plus considerable additional technical support from all over the place
including other parts of M&EE and other parts of Research.

> Stephen Potter in his book On The Right Lines claims that the APT
> project was obstructed by some workshops managers who did not take the
> project seriously. Are you saying that isn't right?

No, I'm just saying that I personally didn't get any obstruction at
technical and junior management level. Teasing, scolding or disagreement
sometimes, but never obstruction. Who know what ding-dongs were going on
over my head? But the exchange I most commonly heard in those days went,
"Thank you for your help." "That's OK, we all work for the same firm."
I guess it's a bit like military banter and feuding. Bizarre to an outsider
yet rarely losing sight of the reality of being on the same side.

A good person to ask would be David Rollin who was the heroic meat in many
of these pickle sandwiches.

> I think Kit looks a bit like Graeme Garden in the pictures I have seen -
> sorry Kit!

'Nonchalant' would be a good word for his classic poses on POP-train.
Reflecting an excitable person who was super-cool when it counted. And
there were many such personalities:

A gang of us sat in the little lounge on E-Train at the Anniversary,
listening to the soundtrack of the E-train Record Breaking Run. As the
speed indicator got close to 150mph, Alastair Gilchrist came out with
something like "It's remarkable how matter of fact they all were, given
that it must have been absolutely terrifying."

David 1/2d

I've just spent a good few minutes chuckling over the previous exchanges. <g>

Firstly the length of my hair back then had EVERYthing to do with the fact that I never had time to get it cut! We worked all the hours that God gave, and quite a few that he didn't, and things like shopping and sleeping took third or even fourth priority. Haircuts weren't even on the priority list! Luckily it was the fashion to wear it long then anyway, along with wide kipper ties and flared trousers.....

In the early days, when we were working on POP Train and 'boldy going where no railway engineers had gone before', we tended to be treated as schoolboys by the CM&EE staff. I clearly remember the attitude of the people who operated the bogie turntable in the CM&EE that we had to use to meaasure the yaw stiffness of the original SA bogie in the cemtre of POP Train. We shunted the train onto the turntable and they stood alongside grinning like Cheshire cats, presumably at the thought that this Bailey Bridge on wheels could ever be considered as 'Advanced'.

All this changed once they got close-up and examined the commponents of the train itself. There was an almost grudging adnmittance that we just might have something there and they started to ask intelligent questions. When I demonstrated how smoothly PC3 tilted you could almost hear their jaws drop! We did have some problems in getting such tests scheduled in, the turntable was being used by everyone at the RTC back then, but I'm not sure if it was deliberate or not.

When E-Train was forced to move across to the Loco Works for Rebuild 1 the staff over there weren't quite so dismissive of us, after all they'd built the bogies themselves anyway and knew what was going on from closer quarters. We had some staff from the Carriage and Wagon works drafted in to help us get the job done more quickly and their attitude was very enthusiastic and enquiring.

In Tilt Development we did most of our work in the APD Lab, building the Mk 2 Tilt Packs and developing the control system there and on POP Train, and then transferred the whole lot over to the Loco Works to install it. 'Our man' over there, Ray Sivitar, came from the Loco Works anyway and he was a tower of strength in papering over any cracks that may have developed.

Working on E-Train we were essentially isolated from the rest of the railway world but we did see some 'attitude' now and then. The people at Old Oak Common, who were running the HST prototype in actual service at the time, were somewhat dismissive of our efforts during the high speed tests on the GWR main line. That changed after our first 150 mph run as they had no hope of going that fast!

Perhaps the attitude of the 'real railway' was best indicated by the actions of the signalman south of Leicester on the 2nd of our London-Leicester runs. Despite being knee deep in Special Notices he gave us a red just as we were approaching Leicester to let the Birmingham-Norwich DMU in ahead of us! I'm not sure if he had a job that same avening as, unfortunately for him, we had the BR Board Member for Signals and Telecommunications on board the train the same day, and he got off at Leicester with steam coming out of his ears clammering for a phone to call the signalman....

After the Great Split, when the design side staff moved to CM&EE and the development staff were left behind in R&D, there was a period of calm while we all found other jobs to do. On my part I was asked to look after the management of the APD Lab's facilities, as a lot of it covered control systems and hydraulics, just like a huge E-Train tilt system really, so I lost contact with the APT project for a while. After this short hiatus, when CM&EE realised they didn't actually have the development experience to handle all the hi-tech stuff that had been handed over, some of the tasks came back to APD and I ended up working on tilt packs again, this time the P-Train's trailer car under-floor Mk 5s. That was rather strange as it felt a bit like being a sub-contractor, as it actually was of course, but some the people who we were dealing with over there were well known to us by then anyway.

Moving on to other topics mentioned in the thread, I believe HSFV1 was built in 1966 originally, and it had numerous changes made to its suspension components. The various photos of show some of these but very few of them are dated so it's difficult to plot a development path. Perhaps a long conversation with Alan Wickens could solve that? After its use as a suspension devlopment vehicle, and after E-Train had gone to York, HSFV1 was converted to be a track loading vehicle and still carries the awful looking loading beam that was welded to its deck for this purpose. We plan to cut it off when we've figured out how to do it, by the way.

I'm not sure if Alistair was actually right about being 'terrified' on the 152.3 mph run. By then we'd been running at such speeds for three weekends and 150 mph was almost easy, it was certainly routine by then. From the Tilt side the tests were almost boring as we only had two vehicles to worry about, the Power Cars we running tilt passive for those tests, and the WR main line was hardly taxing for the highest performance tilt system ever built! <g>

On that last run we were worried about reaching the balancing speed as we'd had the turbine fuel control system failure the previous run, and only herculean efforts on the part of the electronics and turbine guys got it running in time. The heroes of the hour were Ray Coleman and Alan Goodley, who became a human 'closed loop fuel control system' to run the failed turbine, and their continual conversations can clearly be heard on that intercom tape. The 152.3 speed came up very slowly indeed after our 150 mph pass through Didcot and I'm sure it was a matter of collective will-power that gained us those last few mph as well as Ray's and Alan's efforts. <G>

As for looking nonchalant aboard POP Train, it really WAS! We thought nothing of standing on the downwind side of the control cabin at speeds in excess of 110 mph, but that was mainly beacuse it was so horrifically hot inside when the systems were at full power during the hot summers in the 70s. In the second set of my photos on the E-Train site there's at least one taken passing cars on various motorways. The look on the driver's faces was wondrous to behold!

Of course these days the Health and Safety Executive wouldn't have let POP Train be built, let alone run, but then they aren't engineers anyway.......

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny \(y\)" <david.halfpenny@...> wrote:
>
> From: Tanya Jackson
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 8:21 PM
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: <APT Group> criticism and ridicule
>
> > I have spent some time in traditional carriages that I swear spent more
> > time off than on the rails - and they didn't need wings.
>
> It doesn't take that much of a dipped railjoint to make a wheelset take to
> the air.
>
> On P-train we used Research figures for average trackbed stiffness to
> calculate the Bounce frequency of a wheelset on the rails. Then set the
> primary suspension frequency so that the bogie was moving downwards just at
> the point where the wheelset was trying to come upwards. Thus the primary
> vertical dampers held the wheelset down on the rails as hard as was going
> to happen, and when they'd finished the primary springs were still holding
> it down because by then the bogie frame had nodded into the dip itself.
>
> That kind of sum leads to your feeling that:
> > I have never felt so safe at speed on a railway as I have with BT10, or
> > more modern bogies under me,
>
> >To be fair they were just as suspicious of the budding P-Train team in
> >their midst.
> >And the two Derby Works were deeply sceptical of both sets of RTC bankers.
>
> > So there were basically three groups at one stage; two sets of
> > researchers and the group building the p - APT-P train?
>
> What I had in mind was:
> - a Design Team in M&EE, mixed from ex Research APT Design people and M&EE
> people.
> - technical support from APT Development, left behind in Research under
> Alan Wickens and Alastair Gilchrist.
> - bogies and power cars being built in Derby Loco Works
> - trailer bodies being built in Derby Litchurch Lane.
> plus considerable additional technical support from all over the place
> including other parts of M&EE and other parts of Research.
>
>
> > Stephen Potter in his book On The Right Lines claims that the APT
> > project was obstructed by some workshops managers who did not take the
> > project seriously. Are you saying that isn't right?
>
> No, I'm just saying that I personally didn't get any obstruction at
> technical and junior management level. Teasing, scolding or disagreement
> sometimes, but never obstruction. Who know what ding-dongs were going on
> over my head? But the exchange I most commonly heard in those days went,
> "Thank you for your help." "That's OK, we all work for the same firm."
> I guess it's a bit like military banter and feuding. Bizarre to an outsider
> yet rarely losing sight of the reality of being on the same side.
>
> A good person to ask would be David Rollin who was the heroic meat in many
> of these pickle sandwiches.
>
> > I think Kit looks a bit like Graeme Garden in the pictures I have seen -
> > sorry Kit!
>
> 'Nonchalant' would be a good word for his classic poses on POP-train.
> Reflecting an excitable person who was super-cool when it counted. And
> there were many such personalities:
>
> A gang of us sat in the little lounge on E-Train at the Anniversary,
> listening to the soundtrack of the E-train Record Breaking Run. As the
> speed indicator got close to 150mph, Alastair Gilchrist came out with
> something like "It's remarkable how matter of fact they all were, given
> that it must have been absolutely terrifying."
>
> David 1/2d
>

I can't think of a better forum to put this on - just type the word tilt into Google (it
doesn't work for APT, sadly!)

(Not a phishing scam, and "safe for work" by the way!)

Cheers, Howard.

LOL! I love it! Just hope it doesn't work for "bang" etc

Tanya

> LOL! I love it! Just hope it doesn't work for "bang" etc

Well, straying a very long way from what the APT was capable of, try typing in "do a barrel
roll" (actually, you probably wont get much further than "do a...") Now that *would* have been
something to see on the WCML!

Howard.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 9:57 AM

> when CM&EE realised they didn't actually have the development experience
> to handle all the hi-tech stuff that had been handed over, some of the
> tasks came back to APD

I think it's arguable that the second most significant element in the whole
APT programme (after the staff) could well have been the Railway Technical
Centre complex itself.

- the enforced sharing of a site between departments that wouldn't normally
communicate brought massive dividends. At the period we are talking about
there really was a Derby end and a Swindon end to the Locomotive Drawing
Office - with the Eastleigh and Doncaster mobs uncomfortable in the middle.
It's not just that the factions inter-promoted as the years went by, social
tentacles help a lot, such as living nearby in suburban clumps, and eating
together in the canteen and mess rooms.
And the whole scale of the thing was such that we could afford better
facilities all round than four smaller Regional outfits would have been
able to.

- the IBM 360 computer was absolutely Mission Critical - the Fast Fourier
'flutter' sums can't be done on a fag packet or from a dial-up teletype
machine (a remote computer terminal that only has a keyboard and a
character printer, no fancy screen, mouse, graphics or anything).
[To put the 360 in perspective, Cambridge University Engineering Department
(which was doing a bit of railway work at the time) was so rich and
forward-looking that it had its very own 8k computer - which could only run
8 000 bytes of Fortran at once. Heck, Kit's email is twice that size!]

- The Advanced Projects Division lab with its heavy-duty hydraulics and its
instrumentation was Mission Critical. To be able to shake things firmly and
measure how much and how fast they wobbled was a good start, but to be able
to do proper accelerated fatigue testing took years of risky trials out of
the equation. More importantly, it meant we could do things that weren't
just developments of what had gone before.

- the Engineering Development Unit with its suspension stiffness rigs
continues to be crucial in confirming that novel suspensions do conform to
the common-sense rules for track worthiness

- having two massive and competent Works within cycling distance (APD had a
small fleet of bikes because although the Loco was near it was across the
Main Line and one had to get to a bridge) was a huge plus for APT. And I
believe APT was a huge help in the very daunting task of turning them from
archaeological curiosities into a commercial enterprise.

- all sort of little 'Tecky' things help - oddball instruments and
specialised computers to name but two. The Load Cases were done on two
Analogue Computers lashed together - an old 100V valve machine plus a
modern 10V transistor one (and a lot of dividing voltages by ten). The
painstaking Loading Gauge work was done on a small Ferranti with its own
hard disc drive - 4 feet in diameter. When I had an integrated circuit die
on me, some guy I didn't know from a dark corner of Research just burned me
a new one in his tea-break - how cool is that? We pored over miles of
E-Train oscillograms (deflections, accelerations, forces) with pencils and
little rulers, but it was a simple two-channel Spectrum Analyser that
brought Cause and Effect to life on a little orange display.

and much, much more.

All of that would have been worth doing even if APT hadn't been on the
cards.

David 1/2d

In the Digest this morning I got a spam message concerning one of those 'wonderful opportunities' that no sensible person ever responds to.

I note that it's not in the message list on the site itself so has the intruder been ejected along with all his works?

Regards
Kit

Hi

I'm looking for help in the detailing of a model of the APT-E.

Any information on bodyside stenciling such as WATER, FUEL, LIFT HERE etc would be much appreciated as would any advice on the specification of the original livery silver.

Also, does anyone know if the windscreen wipers moved in arcs or from side to side?

Many thanks

Les Hooper

**PS**
I'm sending this again as it doesn't seem to have got theruogh the first time, sorry if it displays as a duplicate

----- Original Message -----

From: tal95@...

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 8:52 AM

Subject: <APT Group> apt-e modelling

 

Hi

I'm looking for help in the detailing of a model of the APT-E.

Any information on bodyside stenciling such as WATER, FUEL, LIFT HERE etc would be much appreciated as would any advice on the specification of the original livery silver.

Also, does anyone know if the windscreen wipers moved in arcs or from side to side?

Many thanks

Les Hooper

**PS**
I'm sending this again as it doesn't seem to have got theruogh the first time, sorry if it displays as a duplicate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-c1l4NjoM&feature=related

Enjoy!
Andy

Many thanks to WS for the heads up :-)

Hello Les,

AFAIK there were NO stencils at all on the bodyside of any of the E-Train vehicles. Directly above the PC bogies there was a 'This gap may close' sticker and these were also located towatd the ends of the PCs and on both TCs but that's about it.

The winsdcreen wipers were adpated from maritime practice and went from side to side on a lateral track at the base of the windscreen. PC1 had twin blades about 10" apart, whereas PC2 had only one.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "tal95@..." <ah4mac@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I'm looking for help in the detailing of a model of the APT-E.
>
> Any information on bodyside stenciling such as WATER, FUEL, LIFT HERE etc would be much appreciated as would any advice on the specification of the original livery silver.
>
> Also, does anyone know if the windscreen wipers moved in arcs or from side to side?
>
> Many thanks
>
> Les Hooper
>
> **PS**
> I'm sending this again as it doesn't seem to have got theruogh the first time, sorry if it displays as a duplicate
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:31 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> Re: apt-e modelling

> Hello Les,
>
> AFAIK there were NO stencils at all on the bodyside of any of the E-Train
> vehicles.

Just a general comment lettering before computerised swivel-knife cutters,
now used to cut stencils and vinyls alike.
I can't speak for E-Train, and of course HOW E-Train was lettered doesn't
matter to a modeller.

The lab coaches etc were signwritten in the traditional manner by brush,
indeed as the paint wore thin with weather and washing the brushstrokes
would start to show through.

Some lettering was done freehand while some was done using a pricked card
stencil and Pounce. The letters were drawn out full size using the
constructions specified in the Style manual for Helvetica Medium, then the
outlines pricked through. The graphic was taped to the vehicle and patted
with a bag of Pounce (pumice or similar fine sharp powder). Then the
stencil was taken off for reuse and the painter joined the faint dots and
filled in the letter. Ideally half the powder would sink into the paint
while the other half would wipe off once the paint was dry.
Fascinating to watch an ancient craft in the hi-tech RTC yard, and quite
different from using cut-out stencils.

David 1/2d

Thanks Alan

I'm working in 7mm scale O gauge- I've had BR originated plans and proximity to the real thing at Shildon for reference.

Unable to scale down the prototype mechanics, I've gone for dynamic tilting.

Yours
Les Hooper

On 11/11/2011 11:46, Alan Coombe wrote:

> Hi all,
> Les, can't help you with the stenciling or silver spec but on my !0 mm
> scale model I intend to spray with Hycote aluminium and seal it with
> gloss varnish from the same maker - looks about right to my eye.
> I was told the wipers were linear.
> What scale are you building and what plans did you use?

Hello all,

Hopefully it's ok for me to butt in and ask where do people modelling
APT get plans etc? Are there copies of suitable drawings available
anywhere (preferably digitised) or is it a case of modelling from photos?

I keep saying I'm goint to model E-Train in OO scale, firstly
experimenting with a few different ideas I have for active tilt
bogies... One day I hope to actually get around to it!

Alistair
(long time reader, first time poster)

----- Original Message -----

From: tal95@...

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:47 PM

Subject: <APT Group> Re: apt-e modelling

 

Thanks Alan

I'm working in 7mm scale O gauge- I've had BR originated plans and proximity to the real thing at Shildon for reference.

Unable to scale down the prototype mechanics, I've gone for dynamic tilting.

Yours
Les Hooper

----- Original Message -----

From: Alistair

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:46 PM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> apt-e modelling

 

On 11/11/2011 11:46, Alan Coombe wrote:
> Hi all,
> Les, can't help you with the stenciling or silver spec but on my !0 mm
> scale model I intend to spray with Hycote aluminium and seal it with
> gloss varnish from the same maker - looks about right to my eye.
> I was told the wipers were linear.
> What scale are you building and what plans did you use?

Hello all,

Hopefully it's ok for me to butt in and ask where do people modelling
APT get plans etc? Are there copies of suitable drawings available
anywhere (preferably digitised) or is it a case of modelling from photos?

I keep saying I'm goint to model E-Train in OO scale, firstly
experimenting with a few different ideas I have for active tilt
bogies... One day I hope to actually get around to it!

Alistair
(long time reader, first time poster)

There's some interesting points in the film, now almost 30 years on from its original transmission date as the Horizon programme was released the day of the First Public Run, Dec 7th 1981, as they mention in the closing credits. While there's a slightly snide comment about a normal train following on afterward, what did they expect BR to do with only one APT in service at the time?

I liked Ron Puntis' tilt system demo with the coffee jar, I suspect they had the offset potentionter a tad off zero on that coach as it was heading slowly but surely for the window as time went on! <g>

The Power Car anti-tilt blocks they installed while trying to sort out the brake adjuster problems looked REMARKABLY flimsy! The ones we used for Trestrol were about three times their size. I noticed they ran that test train in 2+1+6 formation for that test, not exactly a 'hot-rod' configuration.

It amazed me they were still 'sampling' the transfer gearbox oil by dipping it and using the residue as a sample when we'd spent 3-4 years working to get a workable and practical method of oil sampling on APT-E.

What the DEVIL was Sir Hugh Ford doing sticking his head in between the body and the bogie when there was a 'This gap may close' sticker about a foot from his eyes? I shouted at Richard Marsh for doing exactly that in the APD Lab once, and Alan Wickens applauded my vigilance but suggested I could have given my warning slightly more politely....

During the VIP run David Bookock mentions that they would be likely to increase the consist of the train to a 2+10 formation, but in the airborne film immediately afterward the train is shown as a 2+12. I wasn't aware that they'd actually run as a 2+12 by the time the film was shown, and it certainly looked great in that sequence.

The last time I saw that film was when I got back home to Derby after riding the inaugural run, so it was a big memery jerker for me.

Two weeks to go for the 30th Anniversary........

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Alastair McCulloch <alastair_elmarie@...> wrote:
>
> One I've not seen for many years.  Shame the beginning is missing.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2XXtqQPdDw
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:42 AM

> in the airborne film immediately afterward the train is shown as a 2+12.
> it certainly looked great in that sequence.

My goodness it did!

One reason is that those hills are classic tilt territory - tight curves
following contours as opposed to the equally valid (but rather more
expensive) TGV approach of steep gradient on the straight.

Graham Guest would be able to fill in details about when it was filmed. I
imagine he's still bursting with pride about that day and all the aerial
footage.

On similar runs I could walk down the train at 150mph holding a cup of
coffee in each hand. At 100mph in a Mark 3 coach I could not even walk down
the train.

The train outran the helicopter during the filming - luckily the
helicopter could cut corners by nipping over the hills.

David 1/2d