Messages in Advanced-Passenger-Train group. Page 58 of 68.

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2921 From: Andy Scott Date: 02/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2922 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 02/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2923 From: misterrtilt Date: 03/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2924 From: Paul Rowlinson Date: 03/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2925 From: t.sage Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2926 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2927 From: tanyajane Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2928 From: t.sage Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2929 From: misterrtilt Date: 05/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2930 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train-owner@yahoogroup Date: 21/06/2010
Subject: Happy Birthday
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2931 From: misterrtilt Date: 22/06/2010
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2932 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 28/06/2010
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2933 From: norwaytrains Date: 01/07/2010
Subject: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number series
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2934 From: Alan Coombe Date: 01/07/2010
Subject: Wots in there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2935 From: Nick Evans Date: 01/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2936 From: misterrtilt Date: 02/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2937 From: Alan Coombe Date: 02/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2938 From: misterrtilt Date: 03/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2939 From: Alan Coombe Date: 04/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2940 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 11/07/2010
Subject: HSFV1 News Update.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2941 From: Nick Evans Date: 11/07/2010
Subject: Re: HSFV1 News Update.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2942 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 14/07/2010
Subject: Re: HSFV1 News Update.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2943 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 14/07/2010
Subject: APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2944 From: Ball, Gordon [Sec Div] Date: 15/07/2010
Subject: Re: APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2945 From: norwaytrains Date: 15/07/2010
Subject: Re: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number series
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2946 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 15/07/2010
Subject: Re: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number series
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2947 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 16/07/2010
Subject: Re: APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2948 From: Alastair Date: 29/07/2010
Subject: APT programme on Discovery channel this morning
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2949 From: tanyajane Date: 01/08/2010
Subject: Re: APT programme on Discovery channel this morning
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2950 From: Alan Date: 03/08/2010
Subject: APT-P web site
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2951 From: aptp370 Date: 04/08/2010
Subject: Re: APT-P web site
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2952 From: Alan Date: 07/08/2010
Subject: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2953 From: justin_coleman Date: 07/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2954 From: misterrtilt Date: 08/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2955 From: misterrtilt Date: 08/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2957 From: t.sage Date: 08/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2958 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2959 From: misterrtilt Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2960 From: 50020 Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2961 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2962 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Work Day Report for APT-E on the 6th August 2010.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2964 From: James Moody Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2965 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2966 From: misterrtilt Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2967 From: Andy Appleton Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Work Day Report for APT-E on the 6th August 2010.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2968 From: Alan Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2969 From: misterrtilt Date: 11/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2970 From: tanyajane Date: 14/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2971 From: Gerry Bates Date: 14/08/2010
Subject: Re[2]: Re: Tilt Failures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2972 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 14/08/2010
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re: Tilt Failures



Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2921 From: Andy Scott Date: 02/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?

It looks like part of the APT, but I cant be 100% certain. I’m sure the others will be able to confirm it.

 

 

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andi Dell
Sent: 02 June 2010 01:49
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> what is this?

 

 

http://georgestrainpics.fotopic.net/p64277394.html
On the far right of the picture

Andi

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2922 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 02/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
--------------------------------------------------
From: "tanyajane" <tanyajane@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 10:26 AM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: <APT Group> what is this?

> It looks rather like that Mag-Lev carriage thing...
>
> Miss Tanya Jane Jackson
>
> HMRS Transfer Development Manager and British Rail carriage steward

I know what you mean Tanya Jane, but here's that (attached).

The location and date printed on the photo are given as Leeds June 1969,
and I find the 'corners' interesting. They are dramatically sharper than
the very rounded E-Train profile, and sharper than the more 'modern'
P-train profile.

We've got enough people here who were around in '69, but if I had to guess
it would be that it's a wooden mock-up specifically of the E-train livery.

David 1/2d
  @@attachment@@
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2923 From: misterrtilt Date: 03/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
It's too low to be the MagLev car, and it looks as if it's made of wood if you blow the piccie up. From the caption of the pic it could have been taken in May 1969 which would be too early for any real APT vehicles, but it could well be a mockup. Butthen what's it doing at Leeds?

The MagLev car, together with large chunks of its 'track', including a 'point', are in the Science Museum External Collection at Wroughton nr Swindon. Sadly its almost impossible to see it as the Museum keep on cancelling the very few open days they have there.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Andi Dell <andi@...> wrote:
>
> http://georgestrainpics.fotopic.net/p64277394.html
> On the far right of the picture
>
> Andi
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2924 From: Paul Rowlinson Date: 03/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?

It’s definitely wooden

 

regards

 

Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations London

Sanctuary Management Services

189-205 Pentonville Road

London

N1 9NF

 

0207 812 0022

Mob 07787 834807

 

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of misterrtilt
Sent: 03 June 2010 12:34
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: what is this?

 

 

It's too low to be the MagLev car, and it looks as if it's made of wood if you blow the piccie up. From the caption of the pic it could have been taken in May 1969 which would be too early for any real APT vehicles, but it could well be a mockup. Butthen what's it doing at Leeds?

The MagLev car, together with large chunks of its 'track', including a 'point', are in the Science Museum External Collection at Wroughton nr Swindon. Sadly its almost impossible to see it as the Museum keep on cancelling the very few open days they have there.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Andi Dell <andi@...> wrote:

>
> http://georgestrainpics.fotopic.net/p64277394.html
> On the far right of the picture
>
> Andi
>

 

Click here to report this email as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security. (Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)

 


Sanctuary Group
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Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700

View our disclaimer at:

www.sanctuary-group.co.uk/Pages/SanctuaryHousingAssociationDisclaimer.aspx

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2925 From: t.sage Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
profile looks like its desighnd to tilt? could be mock up of body desighn for apt-e? used in conguntion with pop train?, only kit would have any idear if this has to do with his project
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:33 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: what is this?

 

It's too low to be the MagLev car, and it looks as if it's made of wood if you blow the piccie up. From the caption of the pic it could have been taken in May 1969 which would be too early for any real APT vehicles, but it could well be a mockup. Butthen what's it doing at Leeds?

The MagLev car, together with large chunks of its 'track', including a 'point', are in the Science Museum External Collection at Wroughton nr Swindon. Sadly its almost impossible to see it as the Museum keep on cancelling the very few open days they have there.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Andi Dell <andi@...> wrote:
>
> http://georgestrainpics.fotopic.net/p64277394.html
> On the far right of the picture
>
> Andi
>



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2926 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
The very early date and the Maquette construction raises an interesting
possibility that it came from Hawker Siddeley rather than BR Research.

If so, it wouldn't have been part of Kit-and-his-gang's project

[HS were given a design brief for what became E-train, but in the end she
was brought back in-house.]

David 1/2d

--------------------------------------------------
From: "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:21 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?

> profile looks like its desighnd to tilt? could be mock up of body desighn
> for apt-e? used in conguntion with pop train?, only kit would have any
> idear if this has to do with his project
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2927 From: tanyajane Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Perhaps it was Swindon's redesign of the Pontynewedd Brake vans!
http://www.gwr.org.uk/layouts/drefach8.jpg

Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer Development Manager and British Rail carriage steward
www.hmrs.org.uk
transfersdev@...

List owner: LMSReg
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lmsreg

List owner: Trackwork
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/trackwork/
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Halfpenny gmail" <davidhalfpenny@...>
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?


> The very early date and the Maquette construction raises an interesting
> possibility that it came from Hawker Siddeley rather than BR Research.
>
> If so, it wouldn't have been part of Kit-and-his-gang's project
>
> [HS were given a design brief for what became E-train, but in the end she
> was brought back in-house.]
>
> David 1/2d
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...>
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:21 PM
> To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?
>
>> profile looks like its desighnd to tilt? could be mock up of body desighn
>> for apt-e? used in conguntion with pop train?, only kit would have any
>> idear if this has to do with his project
>
>
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2928 From: t.sage Date: 04/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
dident they desighn tc1 & tc2? if so it could be there mockup of e-train coaches?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?

 

The very early date and the Maquette construction raises an interesting
possibility that it came from Hawker Siddeley rather than BR Research.

If so, it wouldn't have been part of Kit-and-his-gang's project

[HS were given a design brief for what became E-train, but in the end she
was brought back in-house.]

David 1/2d

--------------------------------------------------
From: "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:21 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?

> profile looks like its desighnd to tilt? could be mock up of body desighn
> for apt-e? used in conguntion with pop train?, only kit would have any
> idear if this has to do with his project




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2917 - Release Date: 06/04/10 07:25:00

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2929 From: misterrtilt Date: 05/06/2010
Subject: Re: what is this?
Hawker-Siddley were indeed involved in the project, and TC1 and TC2 were designed on aircraft fuselage principles but with big windows. I think the floor panels of the trailer cars were the same hardware as the BAC 1-11 fuselage floor. They were built at English Electric in Lancashire though, competitors of H-S at the time.

H-S designed and built the Mk 1 tilt packs, which turned out MILES too small by a large factor, and the only thing left of those packs in the final Mk 2 versions was the servo-valve manifold and the change-over valve block. Everything else was doubled or trebled in size.

If the pic really was taken in may 1969, as I surmised earlier, it predated me at BR by about 6 months and when I started there I was testing bridges, concrete track and coach bodies! I didn't join APD properly for over a year, and by then POP Train and the Power Car frames were just about to be delivered.

It still begs the question 'What was it doing in a Leeds engine shed?'

Personally I go for the rebodied brake van myself......... <g>

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> dident they desighn tc1 & tc2? if so it could be there mockup of e-train coaches?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Halfpenny gmail
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?
>
>
>
> The very early date and the Maquette construction raises an interesting
> possibility that it came from Hawker Siddeley rather than BR Research.
>
> If so, it wouldn't have been part of Kit-and-his-gang's project
>
> [HS were given a design brief for what became E-train, but in the end she
> was brought back in-house.]
>
> David 1/2d
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...>
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:21 PM
> To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: what is this?
>
> > profile looks like its desighnd to tilt? could be mock up of body desighn
> > for apt-e? used in conguntion with pop train?, only kit would have any
> > idear if this has to do with his project
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2917 - Release Date: 06/04/10 07:25:00
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2930 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train-owner@yahoogroup Date: 21/06/2010
Subject: Happy Birthday
Tomorrow (22nd June) is the 10th birthday of this group. Special thanks to you all for supporting the group and long may it continue...

Long live the APT!
Andy
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2931 From: misterrtilt Date: 22/06/2010
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Congratulations Andy, well done for a) starting the Group in the first place and b) for keeping it up and running. All this at a time when Yahoo themselves seem to be closing groups for no apparent reason.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Advanced-Passenger-Train-owner@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> Tomorrow (22nd June) is the 10th birthday of this group. Special thanks to you all for supporting the group and long may it continue...
>
> Long live the APT!
> Andy
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2932 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 28/06/2010
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Yes, Congrats and thanks for the 10 years.

This is still the best form of communication we have to talk about APT.

And "YES", long live the APT.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2933 From: norwaytrains Date: 01/07/2010
Subject: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number series
Hello.
Does anyone know if it was decided what number series the various cars in the proposed production APT-S would have had? Would they have been in the 48XXX-series like the APT-P, or would they have used separate number series for each subtype (I guess TFO, TSO, TRSB and DVT?) like on the HSTs and coaching stock?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2934 From: Alan Coombe Date: 01/07/2010
Subject: Wots in there?
Hi all,
 
On the APT-E PCs the front 2 roof fairings (no idea what the correct name is) each have a rectangular opening on their inside faces on virtually all the photos I have seen. Can anyone tell me what was in there and did the train ever run with covers over those holes? A positive reply
 for the latter would make life easier from a model view point.
 
Yours,
 
Alan Coombe
 
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2935 From: Nick Evans Date: 01/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
I think the roof fairing I think are called exhaust nacelles (not sure
why... just have a feeling I have heard it called that before) Suffice
to say it is where the turbines exhausts from.
The openings are where the horns are.

N

On Thu, 2010-07-01 at 20:08 +0100, Alan Coombe wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> On the APT-E PCs the front 2 roof fairings (no idea what the correct
> name is) each have a rectangular opening on their inside faces on
> virtually all the photos I have seen. Can anyone tell me what was in
> there and did the train ever run with covers over those holes? A
> positive reply
> for the latter would make life easier from a model view point.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
>
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2936 From: misterrtilt Date: 02/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Alan,

As Nick says, those 'bumps' on the roof house the exhaust pipes from the turbines, and they are that shape to lift the hot exhaust plumes well above the power car roof. They are intended to lift the plumes well clear of the boundary layer, otherwise they would overheat the roof, and cause aerodynamic problems too.

The rectangular holes on the inside of the leading fairings were to allow the sound of the horms to get out, as Nick suggests. The horns are mounted just inside the fairings facing forward, and originally the hole had some coarse mesh wire netting across them, but not really dense enough to be visible.

Very soon after our early runs, when we had air spring failures due to the horns jamming on, the mesh was removed so we could access the horn hoses and fit the 'remedial action'. This was a pair of Mole Grips clamped across the hose, thus allowing the air pressure to build up and raise the air springs again..........

I'm afraid you're stuck with modelling the holes to be truly authentic.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Evans <nicks-ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> I think the roof fairing I think are called exhaust nacelles (not sure
> why... just have a feeling I have heard it called that before) Suffice
> to say it is where the turbines exhausts from.
> The openings are where the horns are.
>
> N
>
> On Thu, 2010-07-01 at 20:08 +0100, Alan Coombe wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > On the APT-E PCs the front 2 roof fairings (no idea what the correct
> > name is) each have a rectangular opening on their inside faces on
> > virtually all the photos I have seen. Can anyone tell me what was in
> > there and did the train ever run with covers over those holes? A
> > positive reply
> > for the latter would make life easier from a model view point.
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Alan Coombe
> >
> >
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2937 From: Alan Coombe Date: 02/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Hi all,
 
Thanks Kit and Nick for the information - always wondered why the APT-E exhausts were inside streamlined fairings when the other 3 British gas turbine locos (18000, 18100 and GT3) were not so equipped.
 
Answers always lead to more questions - does anyone know of a drawing or photograph that shows the arrangement inside of those cavities?
 
I have had skins laser cut for the PCs, TCs and modules after nearly a year of messing about so maybe I can make some progress.
 
Yours,
 
Alan Coombe
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:48 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re:Wots in there?

 

Alan,

As Nick says, those 'bumps' on the roof house the exhaust pipes from the turbines, and they are that shape to lift the hot exhaust plumes well above the power car roof. They are intended to lift the plumes well clear of the boundary layer, otherwise they would overheat the roof, and cause aerodynamic problems too.

The rectangular holes on the inside of the leading fairings were to allow the sound of the horms to get out, as Nick suggests. The horns are mounted just inside the fairings facing forward, and originally the hole had some coarse mesh wire netting across them, but not really dense enough to be visible.

Very soon after our early runs, when we had air spring failures due to the horns jamming on, the mesh was removed so we could access the horn hoses and fit the 'remedial action'. This was a pair of Mole Grips clamped across the hose, thus allowing the air pressure to build up and raise the air springs again..........

I'm afraid you're stuck with modelling the holes to be truly authentic.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Evans <nicks-ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> I think the roof fairing I think are called exhaust nacelles (not sure
> why... just have a feeling I have heard it called that before) Suffice
> to say it is where the turbines exhausts from.
> The openings are where the horns are.
>
> N
>
> On Thu, 2010-07-01 at 20:08 +0100, Alan Coombe wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > On the APT-E PCs the front 2 roof fairings (no idea what the correct
> > name is) each have a rectangular opening on their inside faces on
> > virtually all the photos I have seen. Can anyone tell me what was in
> > there and did the train ever run with covers over those holes? A
> > positive reply
> > for the latter would make life easier from a model view point.
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Alan Coombe
> >
> >
>

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2938 From: misterrtilt Date: 03/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Alan,

We may have.........

I say this guardedly because we've recently got some E Train drgs. from Serco, but have yet to go through them in detail. There's also some drgs. stashed in TC2, most of which are electrical diags. but some could be mechanical. They will all take a while to go through I'm afraid.

There's also the chance that we could take a look directly, as we're going to install the new anti-tilt blocks on PC2 the week starting the 12th and after that we could get up there and investigate the situation directly.

Didn't GT3 have a sort of 'chimmney', and a slot in the 'smokebox' to lift the exhaust above the top of the 'boiler' too. Why DID they make it look like a steam loco, made no sense and must have cost them a bomb too.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe" <a2cmodel@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks Kit and Nick for the information - always wondered why the APT-E exhausts were inside streamlined fairings when the other 3 British gas turbine locos (18000, 18100 and GT3) were not so equipped.
>
> Answers always lead to more questions - does anyone know of a drawing or photograph that shows the arrangement inside of those cavities?
>
> I have had skins laser cut for the PCs, TCs and modules after nearly a year of messing about so maybe I can make some progress.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2939 From: Alan Coombe Date: 04/07/2010
Subject: Re: Wots in there?
Hi all,
 
Kit, thanks for your help. When I had the skins laser cut I also had parts cut to make masters for moulds for the roof nacelles. Just have to alter the mould to get the front ones.
 
Always thought the GT3 was beautiful with its beech leaf brown/dark brunswick green colour scheme. No chimney - the exhaust comes out of two slots halfway along the roof of the bonnet - picture attached. Cut away drawings indicate that air flows in through the slot at the front of the bonnet and out through the grill on the front of the roof. Assume the function is to create the correct airflow conditions for the exhaust.
 
Yours,
 
Alan Coombe 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re:Wots in there?

 

Alan,

We may have.........

I say this guardedly because we've recently got some E Train drgs. from Serco, but have yet to go through them in detail. There's also some drgs. stashed in TC2, most of which are electrical diags. but some could be mechanical. They will all take a while to go through I'm afraid.

There's also the chance that we could take a look directly, as we're going to install the new anti-tilt blocks on PC2 the week starting the 12th and after that we could get up there and investigate the situation directly.

Didn't GT3 have a sort of 'chimmney', and a slot in the 'smokebox' to lift the exhaust above the top of the 'boiler' too. Why DID they make it look like a steam loco, made no sense and must have cost them a bomb too.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe" <a2cmodel@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks Kit and Nick for the information - always wondered why the APT-E exhausts were inside streamlined fairings when the other 3 British gas turbine locos (18000, 18100 and GT3) were not so equipped.
>
> Answers always lead to more questions - does anyone know of a drawing or photograph that shows the arrangement inside of those cavities?
>
> I have had skins laser cut for the PCs, TCs and modules after nearly a year of messing about so maybe I can make some progress.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe

  @@attachment@@
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2940 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 11/07/2010
Subject: HSFV1 News Update.
Hi all,
On Saturday 10th July 2010, HSFV1 made it the last miles from Moverights Dept to The Electric Railway Museum.

Mr Tilt was there to assist and take photos.

Hard work Kit, but a briliant job.

Please see : -

http://www.apt-e.org/hsfv1/hsfv1.htm

Thanks to Kit for the photographs.

Paul
APT-E Support Group, or should that now say

The APT-E and HSFV1 Conservation & Support Group.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2941 From: Nick Evans Date: 11/07/2010
Subject: Re: HSFV1 News Update.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0quXHw7wQ4E

Hauled into the sidings behind Spondon No.1. Driven by me.

N

On Sun, 2010-07-11 at 09:31 +0000, Silver_Dream_Racer wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> On Saturday 10th July 2010, HSFV1 made it the last miles from
> Moverights Dept to The Electric Railway Museum.
>
> Mr Tilt was there to assist and take photos.
>
> Hard work Kit, but a briliant job.
>
> Please see : -
>
> http://www.apt-e.org/hsfv1/hsfv1.htm
>
> Thanks to Kit for the photographs.
>
> Paul
> APT-E Support Group, or should that now say
>
> The APT-E and HSFV1 Conservation & Support Group.
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2942 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 14/07/2010
Subject: Re: HSFV1 News Update.
Well done Nick, didnt mean to forget you great guys at TERM.

Brilliant job.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Nick Evans <nicks-ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0quXHw7wQ4E
>
> Hauled into the sidings behind Spondon No.1. Driven by me.
>
> N
>
> On Sun, 2010-07-11 at 09:31 +0000, Silver_Dream_Racer wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > On Saturday 10th July 2010, HSFV1 made it the last miles from
> > Moverights Dept to The Electric Railway Museum.
> >
> > Mr Tilt was there to assist and take photos.
> >
> > Hard work Kit, but a briliant job.
> >
> > Please see : -
> >
> > http://www.apt-e.org/hsfv1/hsfv1.htm
> >
> > Thanks to Kit for the photographs.
> >
> > Paul
> > APT-E Support Group, or should that now say
> >
> > The APT-E and HSFV1 Conservation & Support Group.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2943 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 14/07/2010
Subject: APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
Hi all,
The work was completed on the 13th as planned on APT-E at Shildon.

See

http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/13july2010/13july2010.htm

For more details.

Regards

Paul
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2944 From: Ball, Gordon [Sec Div] Date: 15/07/2010
Subject: Re: APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
Wow, great to see an update (and some photos!)

It did make me smile that the tilt warning signs are now in place. I guess it was more likely to 'suddenly tilt' before you fitted the new supports :-)

Gordon


From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed Jul 14 21:14:50 2010
Subject: <APT Group> APT-E News Update 14th July 2010

 

Hi all,
The work was completed on the 13th as planned on APT-E at Shildon.

See

http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/13july2010/13july2010.htm

For more details.

Regards

Paul


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2945 From: norwaytrains Date: 15/07/2010
Subject: Re: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number series
OK, I guess not then

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "norwaytrains" <opin@...> wrote:
>
> Hello.
> Does anyone know if it was decided what number series the various cars in the proposed production APT-S would have had? Would they have been in the 48XXX-series like the APT-P, or would they have used separate number series for each subtype (I guess TFO, TSO, TRSB and DVT?) like on the HSTs and coaching stock?
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2946 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 15/07/2010
Subject: Re: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number series
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "norwaytrains"
> <opin@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello.
>> Does anyone know if it was decided what number series the various cars
>> in the proposed production APT-S would have had? Would they have been in
>> the 48XXX-series like the APT-P, or would they have used separate number
>> series for each subtype (I guess TFO, TSO, TRSB and DVT?) like on the
>> HSTs and coaching stock?
>>
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "norwaytrains" <opin@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:52 AM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> Re: The proposed APT-S - questions about the number
series

> OK, I guess not then

Maybe at this stage in the game "know" is too strong a word?

What I "imagine" is that the APT-P type numbering would have continued, if
only because S-train was also an articulated fixed-rake requiring depot
attention to remarshall.

Another reason is that by then the whole British fleet was well and truly
coded into TOPS and the computer does the de-coding as and when needed.

A thought:
First time round I couldn't see either who you are or why you asked the
question so I just skipped it. This time round, I spotted the potential
language issue for you.

Had the question begun "Goddag, my name's Knut and I belong to a Norwegian
model railway club that is setting its new layout in the 1990s and would
like to add a 'might have been' APT-S to its roster." or ended "I'm a
student of industrial numbering systems, regards Bjorn." it's possible you
might have got more response.

Good luck with whatever you wanted.

David
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2947 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 16/07/2010
Subject: Re: APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
Hi Gordon,
Glad to see you have come on board the group.

PC2 was indeed in great danger of fall hard over, so this is why we had to fit a temp anti tilt solution.

One of our next jobs is to check and re-mount the joint module ends of PC2 and TC1 so that they sit correctly into there taper joints. As we will be checking and/or installing slugs into the tilt jacks for PC2 and TC1, they will end up sitting correctly and both cars will be supported by there slugged tilt jacks, so the anti tilt support we have just fitted can be removed, we will also have to do the same for TC2 and PC1.

We (the support group) and the NRM are currently working on a priority list of jobs to do on the train, some will have a major impact on the look of the train, inside and out.

Tilting is also on the cards.......................................

I will keep everyone posted as to proposed jobs and workdays/events in the very near future.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Ball, Gordon [Sec Div]" <gball@...> wrote:
>
> Wow, great to see an update (and some photos!)
>
> It did make me smile that the tilt warning signs are now in place. I guess it was more likely to 'suddenly tilt' before you fitted the new supports :-)
>
> Gordon
>
> ________________________________
> From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wed Jul 14 21:14:50 2010
> Subject: <APT Group> APT-E News Update 14th July 2010
>
>
>
> Hi all,
> The work was completed on the 13th as planned on APT-E at Shildon.
>
> See
>
> http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/13july2010/13july2010.htm
>
> For more details.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2948 From: Alastair Date: 29/07/2010
Subject: APT programme on Discovery channel this morning
Did anyone see/record it?

Alastair
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2949 From: tanyajane Date: 01/08/2010
Subject: Re: APT programme on Discovery channel this morning
if it was on Discovery it will on again - or maybe on the web...
Google...?

Miss Tanya Jane Jackson
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2950 From: Alan Date: 03/08/2010
Subject: APT-P web site
Unusually, no updates since 22 June (6 weeks ago). Is all OK over there?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2951 From: aptp370 Date: 04/08/2010
Subject: Re: APT-P web site
Hello Alan

I have just uploaded another couple of pictures to my site...


Rob
www.apt-p.com
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2952 From: Alan Date: 07/08/2010
Subject: Tilt Failures
Both APT books have several photos of APT-P with one or more vehicles failing to tilt.

I presume after each journey, the vehicle with the failed tilt system was examined and the fault rectified.

What was the cause of each tilt failure? Were any stats kept? Was the same problem occuring?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2953 From: justin_coleman Date: 07/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Hello

If I remember reading some of the failures were in the winter due to ice and snow buildup. Down to the fluids in the pipes freezing. Hope someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Justin
apt-p.info

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <alan.criddle@...> wrote:
>
> Both APT books have several photos of APT-P with one or more vehicles failing to tilt.
>
> I presume after each journey, the vehicle with the failed tilt system was examined and the fault rectified.
>
> What was the cause of each tilt failure? Were any stats kept? Was the same problem occuring?
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2954 From: misterrtilt Date: 08/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Now you're talking my language..... <g>

There was no chance of the hydraulic fluid in the tilt systems of either E or P-Train freezing as it has no water in it to freeze. For the record the fluid we used was Esso Nuto 45 at the time, now superceded by something else I expect, but that type of fluid doesn't contain water at all. In fact we worked very hard to keep the moisture content to less than 0.1%!

The freezing failures were in the brake system, the HK brake used a water/glycol mixture and there just wasn't enough glycol in the mix over that diabolical winter of 1981. Later on they increased the glycol percentage which solved the problem.

The tilt failure causes were many and varied, on E-Train the most coommon were either because the electronic control system died or one of the sevro-valves silted up. In the latter case the system could (or should...) detect the failure and swtch to the other channel, but sometimes that had already failed, such as in the infamous Trent Junction Incident! Very rarely did we have complete pump failures on E-Train, but sometimes the main pump, a Lucas PM125 for those in the hydraulics field, would not produce enough flow for sharp curves. That's one reason why we fitted the Vickers backup pumps later on.

For P-Train the valve silting problems had been pretty well solved, mainly due to strenuous application of good filtration practice and better valve design, but the electronics were still a tad 'fragile', and that was not helped by the myriad new control system methods they tried out. All of these required development of course, and failures are part and parcel of that process. Pump performance failures on P-Train were also rare, as we'd developed a new, in house, design of CPSV valve for the PM125s and these worked very well. (CPSV means Constant Pressure Sevo-Valve, not the same servo-valve as we used to feed the tilt jacks)

As far as I know there were never any catastrophic tilt system failures, such as a tilt jack blwing its seals, or a piple-line bursting, or a tank splitting etc. The nearest we came to that was the Hastings Coach 'Wigan Station Leak' event, but that was with a Mk 3 tilt pack which was wholly a development unit.

Of course many tilt system failures were deliberate, specially on E-Train, as we had to test the failure cases at some stage. P-Train was also tested the same way, but usually when they had track occupation of both running lines. The reason for that was someone once calculated there was a miniscule chance of two P-Trains pasing each other, both with tilt failures in opposing directions at one of four places on the WCML where they JUST might hit each other. This meant the entire operation was psychotic about such failures, which were about as likely as all four engines falling off a 747....

Hope that helps some.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "justin_coleman" <justin_coleman@...> wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> If I remember reading some of the failures were in the winter due to ice and snow buildup. Down to the fluids in the pipes freezing. Hope someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Justin
> apt-p.info
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <alan.criddle@> wrote:
> >
> > Both APT books have several photos of APT-P with one or more vehicles failing to tilt.
> >
> > I presume after each journey, the vehicle with the failed tilt system was examined and the fault rectified.
> >
> > What was the cause of each tilt failure? Were any stats kept? Was the same problem occuring?
> >
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2955 From: misterrtilt Date: 08/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Sorry Alan, I didn't answer the main point in your posting.

On E-Train we tended to solve the problems 'on the fly' as we had full repair capability on the train, at least if it was an electronic failure. If went seriously wrong the train fell over and we had to fix it right then, or we wouldn't have got home!

On P-Train the entire tilt-pack was in an under floor crate, and that included the electronics, but not the sensors. The usual 'fix' was to replace the entire pack, which took about 15 mins with a fork truck. Then the failed pack was checked and repaired on site at Polmadie.

Certainly some problems were recurring, on E-Train we had numerous servo-valve failures which were tracked to very fine fibre-glass threads jamming up the primary control jets. These threads came from the ver filters that were meant to protect the valves! We were at the 'cutting edge' of filter technology at the time, and they hadn't quite got the bonding process sorted.

I'm sure there are records of P-Train failures but I'm not sure if they have ever been published. My information about P-Train in my earlier post comes from 'the old boy' network, and may or may not be 100% accurate of course.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <alan.criddle@...> wrote:
>
> Both APT books have several photos of APT-P with one or more vehicles failing to tilt.
>
> I presume after each journey, the vehicle with the failed tilt system was examined and the fault rectified.
>
> What was the cause of each tilt failure? Were any stats kept? Was the same problem occuring?
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2957 From: t.sage Date: 08/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
what do you think of the work weve just done kit? you think she looks better now?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Tilt Failures

 

Sorry Alan, I didn't answer the main point in your posting.

On E-Train we tended to solve the problems 'on the fly' as we had full repair capability on the train, at least if it was an electronic failure. If went seriously wrong the train fell over and we had to fix it right then, or we wouldn't have got home!

On P-Train the entire tilt-pack was in an under floor crate, and that included the electronics, but not the sensors. The usual 'fix' was to replace the entire pack, which took about 15 mins with a fork truck. Then the failed pack was checked and repaired on site at Polmadie.

Certainly some problems were recurring, on E-Train we had numerous servo-valve failures which were tracked to very fine fibre-glass threads jamming up the primary control jets. These threads came from the ver filters that were meant to protect the valves! We were at the 'cutting edge' of filter technology at the time, and they hadn't quite got the bonding process sorted.

I'm sure there are records of P-Train failures but I'm not sure if they have ever been published. My information about P-Train in my earlier post comes from 'the old boy' network, and may or may not be 100% accurate of course.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <alan.criddle@...> wrote:
>
> Both APT books have several photos of APT-P with one or more vehicles failing to tilt.
>
> I presume after each journey, the vehicle with the failed tilt system was examined and the fault rectified.
>
> What was the cause of each tilt failure? Were any stats kept? Was the same problem occuring?
>



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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2958 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>

> For P-Train the valve silting problems had been pretty well solved,
> mainly due to strenuous application of good filtration practice and
> better valve design, but the electronics were still a tad 'fragile', and
> that was not helped by the myriad new control system methods they tried
> out.

The tilt problem is akin to controlling an army tank by rocking a spirit
level - a tiny, tiny thing controlling a great big roaring one. That needs
a massive amount of power amplification.

We were very impressed by an all-hydraulic anti-tilt system developed by
Automotive Products for road vehicles - a pendulum drove a hydraulic valve
that controlled the anti-tilt jacks, with hydraulic power taken from an
engine-mounted pump. But that was quite a feat to pull off and we had
bigger fish to tilt, And tilt very fast at short notice since any lag in
the system became a lurch in the cabin.

So we used electronics to detect the signals from the sensors, which were
indeed from a glass spirit level on each bolster, and to magnify the signal
up a bit. This controlled a hydraulic servo valve, ie one that aimed to
make the 'graph' of hydraulic output the same 'shape' as the electric
input. This device was a mighty power amplifier in its own right, since the
tiny electrical signal moved delicate hydraulic spools that allowed the
main control spools to supply instant power. The consequence of that degree
of amplification in a shoebox was that a very small disturbance cause a big
problem at the tilt jacks. Electrical interference is obviously part of it,
and mechanical interference the rest. Mechanical problems came from
anything that might impede the movement of the delicate valves. Grit, bits
of worn seals, muck from the air, remnants of swarf, metal oxide
particles - anything - could mess up those little spools.

This lesson having been well and truly learned, as much time, money and
effort was put into the depot tilt maintenance gear as into the train tilt
pack itself. The gear was mounted in what amounted to a railway station
trolley on pneumatic tyres, and its casing was emblazoned TM1: Tilt Machine
One. It was rolled to each car in turn, plumbed into the tilt hydraulics,
and left to filter the hydraulic oil until samples showed under a
microscope provided that it was clean enough. The size and number of
particles per square in a graticule was the arbiter.

The workplace was pretty damned near all-male in those days, especially the
Works, and PC meant a constable not a computer or consideration for other
people's sensitivities. So it was utterly predictable that when a
Demonstration in Litchurch Lane works turned up a hair in an oil sample,
the shop rocked with sniggering. I think it was the shop manager who put
the joke to bed by saying it loudly with great solemnity, "Is it a Pubic
hair Neil?" Neil Wilson was a sharp cookie, but fair skinned and they all
knew he'd blush.

The first set of control electronics was an utter shambles. I can say that
with total conviction since I designed its control parameters myself on the
usual textbook basis of Responsiveness versus Stability. But it was a
start, and better than picking random resistors out of a jam-jar. The
mechanicals of P-Train were totally different to E-train, largely to
minimise the mechanical problems should the electronics or hydraulics go
limp - another story for another day. But it meant the control issues
weren't quite the same and it took a while for the new pennies to drop. It
only gradually dawned that mixing a signal from the front bogie with one
from the back bogie was always going to wrong-foot us - though I bet now
I've said it you'll retort "But that's obvious!" What we really needed was
to predict the future. We considered using the track transponders to tell
the train where it was, so that the tilt angle could be computed in
real-time from the speed and track details. Heck that's how a Cruise
Missile works, except that back in the 1970s Cruise Missiles didn't
actually work very well. However the the great thing about 1 000 feet of
train is that it can predict the future automatically - feed the control
signal from the car in front. That gave a much better ride for everyone
except the cab crew, and they didn't even notice because they had optical
feed-forward i.e. their eyes could see what was coming like you do in a
sports car.

And a railway sports car was precisely what P-train was - you could walk
down the train at 150mph+ with a cup of coffee in each hand, through curves
so snaking that in a Mark III coach at Line Speed it was physically
impossible to walk down the train - at all. Yet while the Mark III swished
you along like a limo, on P-train you felt every nuance of the rails
through the taut suspension.

Fantastic, but I'd do it differently next time ;-)

David 1/2d
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2959 From: misterrtilt Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
I've got no idea why one of my messages got posted twice in the digest, it's not in the list here now, wierd....

Amplifying David's comments about power requirements to tilt the train, it was easier to tilt E-Train because it was naturally unstable. Once you'd got it 'off balance' it didn't need much power to tilt it further, but it was designed to move VERY fast indeed, 9 deg/sec was the design case for E-Train, and that meant tilting into a curve AND out of it! That meant it took more power to bring E-Train back level than it did to tilt it.

P-Train was the other way round, because it was stable it needed more power to tilt it than it did to bring it back level again, even though the performance requirement was somewhat less, 7.5 deg/sec comes to mind but I could well be wrong. As luck would have it these two differing requirements were met by the same model servo-valve, a Dowty 2551 I think. These are the size of two cigarette boxes on top of each other, yet can put out around 20 hp each at a working pressure of 3000 psi. using a control current of only 20 milliamps! They also cost around £2500 in today's money, a lot less back then.

So you can see what David means when he says a small movement by the tilt sensors was amplified into moving the whole vehicle. When we commissioned POP train I stood on the decking with the tilt pack running and held the main tilt accelerometer in my hand, then tilted the vehicle just by tilting my hand a little! <g>

Tony Hobbs wasn't too amused but it did prove the system worked......

The sensors on E-Train were in the centre of each vehicle body, not on the bolsters as on P-Train. The main sensors were VERY expensive servo-acceleromters, and there was one in the roof and one under the floor. We used the P-Train type spirit level sensors to act as a monitor to switch channels in case of a failure somewhere and all this lot was duplicated, so each vehicle had SIX accelerometers fitted.

I'm not sure if P-Train had a duplicated system, perhaps David could answer that please?

Hastings Coach, which tested the P-Train mechanical configuration, did have duplicated systems, but the electronics and hydraulics on Hastings weren't to production standard at all.

It looks we could write a book about this..... <g>

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny gmail" <davidhalfpenny@...> wrote:
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
>
> > For P-Train the valve silting problems had been pretty well solved,
> > mainly due to strenuous application of good filtration practice and
> > better valve design, but the electronics were still a tad 'fragile', and
> > that was not helped by the myriad new control system methods they tried
> > out.
>
> The tilt problem is akin to controlling an army tank by rocking a spirit
> level - a tiny, tiny thing controlling a great big roaring one. That needs
> a massive amount of power amplification.
>
> We were very impressed by an all-hydraulic anti-tilt system developed by
> Automotive Products for road vehicles - a pendulum drove a hydraulic valve
> that controlled the anti-tilt jacks, with hydraulic power taken from an
> engine-mounted pump. But that was quite a feat to pull off and we had
> bigger fish to tilt, And tilt very fast at short notice since any lag in
> the system became a lurch in the cabin.
>
> So we used electronics to detect the signals from the sensors, which were
> indeed from a glass spirit level on each bolster, and to magnify the signal
> up a bit. This controlled a hydraulic servo valve, ie one that aimed to
> make the 'graph' of hydraulic output the same 'shape' as the electric
> input. This device was a mighty power amplifier in its own right, since the
> tiny electrical signal moved delicate hydraulic spools that allowed the
> main control spools to supply instant power. The consequence of that degree
> of amplification in a shoebox was that a very small disturbance cause a big
> problem at the tilt jacks. Electrical interference is obviously part of it,
> and mechanical interference the rest. Mechanical problems came from
> anything that might impede the movement of the delicate valves. Grit, bits
> of worn seals, muck from the air, remnants of swarf, metal oxide
> particles - anything - could mess up those little spools.
>
> This lesson having been well and truly learned, as much time, money and
> effort was put into the depot tilt maintenance gear as into the train tilt
> pack itself. The gear was mounted in what amounted to a railway station
> trolley on pneumatic tyres, and its casing was emblazoned TM1: Tilt Machine
> One. It was rolled to each car in turn, plumbed into the tilt hydraulics,
> and left to filter the hydraulic oil until samples showed under a
> microscope provided that it was clean enough. The size and number of
> particles per square in a graticule was the arbiter.
>
> The workplace was pretty damned near all-male in those days, especially the
> Works, and PC meant a constable not a computer or consideration for other
> people's sensitivities. So it was utterly predictable that when a
> Demonstration in Litchurch Lane works turned up a hair in an oil sample,
> the shop rocked with sniggering. I think it was the shop manager who put
> the joke to bed by saying it loudly with great solemnity, "Is it a Pubic
> hair Neil?" Neil Wilson was a sharp cookie, but fair skinned and they all
> knew he'd blush.
>
> The first set of control electronics was an utter shambles. I can say that
> with total conviction since I designed its control parameters myself on the
> usual textbook basis of Responsiveness versus Stability. But it was a
> start, and better than picking random resistors out of a jam-jar. The
> mechanicals of P-Train were totally different to E-train, largely to
> minimise the mechanical problems should the electronics or hydraulics go
> limp - another story for another day. But it meant the control issues
> weren't quite the same and it took a while for the new pennies to drop. It
> only gradually dawned that mixing a signal from the front bogie with one
> from the back bogie was always going to wrong-foot us - though I bet now
> I've said it you'll retort "But that's obvious!" What we really needed was
> to predict the future. We considered using the track transponders to tell
> the train where it was, so that the tilt angle could be computed in
> real-time from the speed and track details. Heck that's how a Cruise
> Missile works, except that back in the 1970s Cruise Missiles didn't
> actually work very well. However the the great thing about 1 000 feet of
> train is that it can predict the future automatically - feed the control
> signal from the car in front. That gave a much better ride for everyone
> except the cab crew, and they didn't even notice because they had optical
> feed-forward i.e. their eyes could see what was coming like you do in a
> sports car.
>
> And a railway sports car was precisely what P-train was - you could walk
> down the train at 150mph+ with a cup of coffee in each hand, through curves
> so snaking that in a Mark III coach at Line Speed it was physically
> impossible to walk down the train - at all. Yet while the Mark III swished
> you along like a limo, on P-train you felt every nuance of the rails
> through the taut suspension.
>
> Fantastic, but I'd do it differently next time ;-)
>
> David 1/2d
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2960 From: 50020 Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
>>It looks we could write a book about this.....


Well I for one am loving the technical discussion.


Why for the god awful development from the APT to the class 390 did they switch to baliases to tell the train how much to tilt, rather than the spirit level/pendulum system explained, or indeed, does the 390 use a combination?


With the amount of 390s (and 221s for that matter) that operate on the system without tilt on a daily basis, I would hardly cite reliability as being the reason!






-----Original Message-----
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sender: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:39:06
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Tilt Failures

I've got no idea why one of my messages got posted twice in the digest, it's not in the list here now, wierd....

Amplifying David's comments about power requirements to tilt the train, it was easier to tilt E-Train because it was naturally unstable. Once you'd got it 'off balance' it didn't need much power to tilt it further, but it was designed to move VERY fast indeed, 9 deg/sec was the design case for E-Train, and that meant tilting into a curve AND out of it! That meant it took more power to bring E-Train back level than it did to tilt it.

P-Train was the other way round, because it was stable it needed more power to tilt it than it did to bring it back level again, even though the performance requirement was somewhat less, 7.5 deg/sec comes to mind but I could well be wrong. As luck would have it these two differing requirements were met by the same model servo-valve, a Dowty 2551 I think. These are the size of two cigarette boxes on top of each other, yet can put out around 20 hp each at a working pressure of 3000 psi. using a control current of only 20 milliamps! They also cost around £2500 in today's money, a lot less back then.

So you can see what David means when he says a small movement by the tilt sensors was amplified into moving the whole vehicle. When we commissioned POP train I stood on the decking with the tilt pack running and held the main tilt accelerometer in my hand, then tilted the vehicle just by tilting my hand a little! <g>

Tony Hobbs wasn't too amused but it did prove the system worked......

The sensors on E-Train were in the centre of each vehicle body, not on the bolsters as on P-Train. The main sensors were VERY expensive servo-acceleromters, and there was one in the roof and one under the floor. We used the P-Train type spirit level sensors to act as a monitor to switch channels in case of a failure somewhere and all this lot was duplicated, so each vehicle had SIX accelerometers fitted.

I'm not sure if P-Train had a duplicated system, perhaps David could answer that please?

Hastings Coach, which tested the P-Train mechanical configuration, did have duplicated systems, but the electronics and hydraulics on Hastings weren't to production standard at all.

It looks we could write a book about this..... <g>

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny gmail" <davidhalfpenny@...> wrote:
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
>
> > For P-Train the valve silting problems had been pretty well solved,
> > mainly due to strenuous application of good filtration practice and
> > better valve design, but the electronics were still a tad 'fragile', and
> > that was not helped by the myriad new control system methods they tried
> > out.
>
> The tilt problem is akin to controlling an army tank by rocking a spirit
> level - a tiny, tiny thing controlling a great big roaring one. That needs
> a massive amount of power amplification.
>
> We were very impressed by an all-hydraulic anti-tilt system developed by
> Automotive Products for road vehicles - a pendulum drove a hydraulic valve
> that controlled the anti-tilt jacks, with hydraulic power taken from an
> engine-mounted pump. But that was quite a feat to pull off and we had
> bigger fish to tilt, And tilt very fast at short notice since any lag in
> the system became a lurch in the cabin.
>
> So we used electronics to detect the signals from the sensors, which were
> indeed from a glass spirit level on each bolster, and to magnify the signal
> up a bit. This controlled a hydraulic servo valve, ie one that aimed to
> make the 'graph' of hydraulic output the same 'shape' as the electric
> input. This device was a mighty power amplifier in its own right, since the
> tiny electrical signal moved delicate hydraulic spools that allowed the
> main control spools to supply instant power. The consequence of that degree
> of amplification in a shoebox was that a very small disturbance cause a big
> problem at the tilt jacks. Electrical interference is obviously part of it,
> and mechanical interference the rest. Mechanical problems came from
> anything that might impede the movement of the delicate valves. Grit, bits
> of worn seals, muck from the air, remnants of swarf, metal oxide
> particles - anything - could mess up those little spools.
>
> This lesson having been well and truly learned, as much time, money and
> effort was put into the depot tilt maintenance gear as into the train tilt
> pack itself. The gear was mounted in what amounted to a railway station
> trolley on pneumatic tyres, and its casing was emblazoned TM1: Tilt Machine
> One. It was rolled to each car in turn, plumbed into the tilt hydraulics,
> and left to filter the hydraulic oil until samples showed under a
> microscope provided that it was clean enough. The size and number of
> particles per square in a graticule was the arbiter.
>
> The workplace was pretty damned near all-male in those days, especially the
> Works, and PC meant a constable not a computer or consideration for other
> people's sensitivities. So it was utterly predictable that when a
> Demonstration in Litchurch Lane works turned up a hair in an oil sample,
> the shop rocked with sniggering. I think it was the shop manager who put
> the joke to bed by saying it loudly with great solemnity, "Is it a Pubic
> hair Neil?" Neil Wilson was a sharp cookie, but fair skinned and they all
> knew he'd blush.
>
> The first set of control electronics was an utter shambles. I can say that
> with total conviction since I designed its control parameters myself on the
> usual textbook basis of Responsiveness versus Stability. But it was a
> start, and better than picking random resistors out of a jam-jar. The
> mechanicals of P-Train were totally different to E-train, largely to
> minimise the mechanical problems should the electronics or hydraulics go
> limp - another story for another day. But it meant the control issues
> weren't quite the same and it took a while for the new pennies to drop. It
> only gradually dawned that mixing a signal from the front bogie with one
> from the back bogie was always going to wrong-foot us - though I bet now
> I've said it you'll retort "But that's obvious!" What we really needed was
> to predict the future. We considered using the track transponders to tell
> the train where it was, so that the tilt angle could be computed in
> real-time from the speed and track details. Heck that's how a Cruise
> Missile works, except that back in the 1970s Cruise Missiles didn't
> actually work very well. However the the great thing about 1 000 feet of
> train is that it can predict the future automatically - feed the control
> signal from the car in front. That gave a much better ride for everyone
> except the cab crew, and they didn't even notice because they had optical
> feed-forward i.e. their eyes could see what was coming like you do in a
> sports car.
>
> And a railway sports car was precisely what P-train was - you could walk
> down the train at 150mph+ with a cup of coffee in each hand, through curves
> so snaking that in a Mark III coach at Line Speed it was physically
> impossible to walk down the train - at all. Yet while the Mark III swished
> you along like a limo, on P-train you felt every nuance of the rails
> through the taut suspension.
>
> Fantastic, but I'd do it differently next time ;-)
>
> David 1/2d
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2961 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 5:39 PM

> I'm not sure if P-Train had a duplicated system, perhaps David could
> answer that please?

Kit,

I suspect not as duplication is a very dangerous game. Its unforeseen
consequences can actually cause disaster, as you mentioned earlier.

We had a small team of safety professionals analysing the complex
consequences of individual failures.
>
> the P-Train mechanical configuration,

The tricky bit about tilting a train is that you really want the pivot to
be at waist height in the gangway! So if you want a big trunnion type
bearing, it means sacrificing seating and fitting a side corridor, and that
in turn means some very weird sensations for people walking down it.

On E-Train there was indeed a great big bearing, but below the floor, and
it moved out sideways on curves to give a 'virtual' pivot at waist level.

On P -Train, it was the bogie bolster that tilted, and it hung on
pendulum-like links that were inclined towards each other, again forming a
'virtual' pivot at waist level. After sweating over a sheet of Mylar for a
few weeks, I chose lengths and angles for these links so that as the body
rotated, it barely moved sideways, but it lifted an inch or two. That meant
that when rotated, gravity would pull the car back upright 'like a
pendulum' but with a crucial difference.

If you rotate a pendulum with your hand, it drops back down to the
vertical, where 'vertical' means 'with respect to gravity' when stationary,
and 'with respect to the combination of gravity and centri-whatsit* force'
when curving. But P-Train was different. If you disconnected the tilt
jacks, rotated the body with a giant hand, and let go, it would indeed drop
back 'upright' as quickly as its rotational inertia would allow. The clever
bit (though I say it myself) was that 'upright' meant 'with respect to the
rails'. Therefore if the tilt system became de-pressurised, the vehicle
would stay within gauge even at very high cant deficiency. Dr Boocock had
some 1/10-ish scale models made in which a sheet of 10mm-ish steel sheet
was cut to the car profile, painted in APT-P colours along its edge, and
mounted on a wooden plinth by a set of links. You could tilt it by hand and
it would drop back 'like a pendulum'. But if you canted the wooden base, it
hardly moved at all. You could still tilt it freely by hand, but it always
returned to within C1 loading gauge when you let go. That's Magic!

Of course a failure in which the tilt jacks were determined to tilt the car
the wrong way was another matter . . . .
>
> It looks we could write a book about this..... <g>
>
Well I did keep a set of documents for about 20 years, only disposing of
them when I got kids and needed the space, and understood that everything
had been saved by the BRB. Then the BRB had a nasty accident . . .

I've got a bit left, including a little red book called 'Tilt Technology'
that Julian Marshall and I wrote for the Mechanicals, plus the complete
slide presentation. It's all to Photocopier Era standard, but I suppose it
could be PowerPointed. (Yawn.)

* I put centri-whatsit because if you write 'Centrifugal' some smart-arse
classics scholar always pops up to say 'Centripetal'. Well if there are any
smart-arses in the audience, pin your ears back:

To make a train follow a curved track requires a sideways force directed
towards the centre of the curve. This 'centre-seeking' force on the train
is called a Centripetal force. Inevitably, there is an equal and opposite
'centre-fleeing' force on the track, called a Centrifugal force. You can't
have one without the other, and what you call it depends entirely on where
you are - and how pedantic you are feeling.

David 1/2d
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2962 From: Silver_Dream_Racer Date: 09/08/2010
Subject: Work Day Report for APT-E on the 6th August 2010.
Hi all,
A major even took place on the 6th August, maybe deemed a small matter to many, but a major event for the support group, as E train slowly comes back to life.

Please see : -

http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/6august2010/6august2010.htm

The horns are next :-O

Regards

Paul
APt-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2964 From: James Moody Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
On 10/08/2010 04:22, David Halfpenny gmail wrote:

> To make a train follow a curved track requires a sideways force directed
> towards the centre of the curve. This 'centre-seeking' force on the train
> is called a Centripetal force. Inevitably, there is an equal and opposite
> 'centre-fleeing' force on the track, called a Centrifugal force.

It all depends what your frame of reference is.

If you can only see things in a static frame of reference, then you have
a centripedal force, acting on a mass, causing centripedal acceleration.
No centrifugal force component appears.

However, if you construct the same force examination using a moving
frame of reference (i.e. fix your frame of reference to the train, in
this case), then a centrifugal force component appears plain as day.
While this latter frame of reference may not satisfy the secondary
school mechanics* teacher (who will most likely continue to insist that
there is no such thing), it is important the moment you need to consider
the rotating mass (in this case the train) as anything other than an
indivisible point object :)

Oh, and here it is in comic form...: http://xkcd.com/123/

* (Or should i say "Applied Mathematics")

James Moody
--
aka: Major Denis Bloodnok | (¯\
ICQ: 7000473 | \ \ /¯)
http://www.vsr.org.uk | \ \___/ /
No more can they keep us in | |/ _)| )
Listen, damn it, we will win | ( (|_| )
They see it right, they see it well | \ /
But they think this saves us from our hell | |====|
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2965 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
--------------------------------------------------
From: "James Moody" <bloodnok@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 12:49 AM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: Tilt Failures

> On 10/08/2010 04:22, David Halfpenny gmail wrote:
>
>> To make a train follow a curved track requires a sideways force directed
>> towards the centre of the curve. This 'centre-seeking' force on the
>> train
>> is called a Centripetal force. Inevitably, there is an equal and
>> opposite
>> 'centre-fleeing' force on the track, called a Centrifugal force.
>
> It all depends what your frame of reference is.
>
> If you can only see things in a static frame of reference, then you have
> a centripedal force, acting on a mass, causing centripedal acceleration.
> No centrifugal force component appears.
>
> However, if you construct the same force examination using a moving
> frame of reference (i.e. fix your frame of reference to the train, in
> this case), then a centrifugal force component appears plain as day.

And of course it is natural for a railway engineer to take the train as the
frame of reference.

A slight fly in the ointment is that the rotating frame of reference itself
has an acceleration towards the centre . . . .

For example everything we do on Earth is affected by its rotation, though
it's too small an effect to bother about for tilting trains. The first
people to discover a practical implication were the navies who crossed the
equator and found their guns needed re-aiming, and the man who put numbers
to it was Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis.


To be fair to the pedantic teachers of Applied Mathematics, they are NOT
merely sweating over a name.
They are trying to get across a fundamental point about cause and effect.
To put it in words, and assuming speeds well below that of light:
"It takes an inward force to make any mass adopt a curved path."

Taking the cartoon situation, http://xkcd.com/123/ the teacher might tell
the class:
"The wheel rim isn't resisting Bond's "Centrifugal Force", merely obliging
his mass to go round in circles rather than fly off at a tangent.

David 1/2d
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2966 From: misterrtilt Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
There's nothing quite like the word 'tilt' to bring out some heated discussion on almost any railway aligned forum. And here of course it's meat and veg to us! <g>

I think the answer to the 'Why balises and programmed tilt?' question is because there was almost nothing carried through from APT to the 390s. The Pendelinos came from the 'other' branch of train tilting technology, namely the FIAT system which was being developed at the same time as were were working on E and P Trains.

Of course the railway privatisation did nothing to help that scenario either, all further development on any front was then in private hands, even though the BR APT technology was 'sold on' it ended up in the opposition's hands. That's resulted in the bizarre situation where we have both types of tilt technology on British rails at the same time! The Super Voyagers use the APT-P type hydraulic tilting bolster geometry, but use a similar balis and programme type control system I believe.

As I understand it the current systems are told where they are on the track, via the balises, and then go into pre-programmed tilt movements and rates depending on the train's speeed and where it is on the rail system. Thus there's no 'closed loop' as such, unlike both types of APTs, and the passengers thus lose the amazingly comforting business of NOT having the train lean over in sharply curved stations.

When we stopped at Wellingborough on the Midland Main Line with E-Train it was pleasant to just step off normally with the joint module floor flat. A couple of the places that Hastings Coach ended up at also exhibited the same situation, much to the amazement of the various Joe and Jane Public passengers.

The vehicles won't respond to point and crossing anomolies with thess type of controls, and because they're pre-programmed they can be made to operate more smoothly, from the point of view of the 'vehicle platform' anyway. Of course the normal ride characteristics will still be there, overlaid on the tilting.

I've never been persuaded that this should be intrinsically more reliable than the 'accelerometer closed loop feedback' system, but the 'reliabiity and safety professionals' that David mentioned will have us believe that the sheer mathematics of the number of parts on an acceleroter system will result in more failures.

My feelings are while that may be theoretically the case, in actual fact it's as bad as is made out to be. How many aircraft crash through control system failures? Very, very few.

That's bound to provoke some response I bet..... <g>

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "50020" <gen@...> wrote:
>
> >>It looks we could write a book about this.....
>
>
> Well I for one am loving the technical discussion.
>
>
> Why for the god awful development from the APT to the class 390 did they switch to baliases to tell the train how much to tilt, rather than the spirit level/pendulum system explained, or indeed, does the 390 use a combination?
>
>
> With the amount of 390s (and 221s for that matter) that operate on the system without tilt on a daily basis, I would hardly cite reliability as being the reason!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2967 From: Andy Appleton Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Work Day Report for APT-E on the 6th August 2010.
Hi Paul,

Many thanks for sharing the great news & fantastic photos!

Keep up the good work guys :-)

Take care,
Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Silver_Dream_Racer"


> Hi all,
A major even took place on the 6th August, maybe deemed a small matter to
many, but a major event for the support group, as E train slowly comes back
to life.

Please see : -

http://www.apt-e.org/workdays/6august2010/6august2010.htm

The horns are next :-O
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2968 From: Alan Date: 10/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Wow! And I only wanted to know about tilt failures! I have another question about APT-P's tilt system, but I'm not sure how big a can of worms I might open.

Anyway, when is this new book beig released then?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2969 From: misterrtilt Date: 11/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
Hehe, don't worry about cans of worms Alan, we have loads of them already. Go on, ask your question.....

As for the 'book' it wasn't a SERIOUS idea, although Paul and I have chatted in the past about the possible market for a book that filled in gaps in Hugh William's APT 'Bible'.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <alan.criddle@...> wrote:
>
> Wow! And I only wanted to know about tilt failures! I have another question about APT-P's tilt system, but I'm not sure how big a can of worms I might open.
>
> Anyway, when is this new book beig released then?
>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2970 From: tanyajane Date: 14/08/2010
Subject: Re: Tilt Failures
>As for the 'book' it wasn't a SERIOUS idea, although Paul and I have chatted in the past about the possible market for a book that filled in gaps in Hugh William's >>APT 'Bible'.

What book is this? Can you give title and ISBN?
As for writing books, I would very much appreciate any input on the APT for
my book on British Rail. I have yet to contact Alistair Gilchrist, largely
because I do not want to trouble him with stupid questions - I want to be
able to ask something sensible before I bother anyone and that takes some
prior research. I need to get started and some pointers would help.

Thanks

Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer Development Manager and British Rail carriage steward
www.hmrs.org.uk
transfersdev@...
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2971 From: Gerry Bates Date: 14/08/2010
Subject: Re[2]: Re: Tilt Failures
Tanya

The book referred to is "APT - A Promise Unfilled" by Hugh Williams.

ISBN 0 7110 1474 4

There are a lot of misconceptions about APT so, whatever your research turns up, it will be worth running your script past those of us, particularly Kit, who have had direct experience of working and riding on APTs.

Regards

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 14/08/2010 at 00:05 tanyajane wrote:

>>As for the 'book' it wasn't a SERIOUS idea, although Paul and I have
>chatted in the past about the possible market for a book that filled in
>gaps in Hugh William's >>APT 'Bible'.
>
>What book is this? Can you give title and ISBN?
>As for writing books, I would very much appreciate any input on the APT
>for
>my book on British Rail. I have yet to contact Alistair Gilchrist, largely
>because I do not want to trouble him with stupid questions - I want to be
>able to ask something sensible before I bother anyone and that takes some
>prior research. I need to get started and some pointers would help.
>
>Thanks
>
>Miss Tanya Jane Jackson
>
>HMRS Transfer Development Manager and British Rail carriage steward
>www.hmrs.org.uk
>transfersdev@...
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 2972 From: David Halfpenny gmail Date: 14/08/2010
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re: Tilt Failures
From: Gerry Bates
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 9:05 AM

> There are a lot of misconceptions about APT so, whatever your research
> turns up, it will be worth running your script past those of us,
> particularly Kit, who have had direct experience of working and riding on
> APTs.


Tanya Jane,

There's a very useful paper by Alan Wickens at:
http://www.apt-p.com/APTWithHindsight.htm

I imagine you've seen it, but maybe we have readers who haven't.

David 1/2d

Although technically in breach of copyright, I'm adding the whole text
below as the website happens to be down and I've no idea whether it's
coming back up.
___________________________________________________

APT - With Hindsight
by Professor Alan Wickens

Introduction

Any reference to APT in the media is likely to be coupled with the phrase
"ill-fated". That the project was not a commercial success is undeniable
but this tends to obscure the many successful aspects of its research and
development. It is in the nature of engineering that the translation of
research results into application is fraught with difficulties, and this is
well illustrated by the history of APT.


Background

The APT story started with some research carried out in the1960's. In 1962
Sydney Jones felt that there was a lack of understanding of the basic
mechanics of railway vehicles - why did vehicles hunt and derail - an issue
causing much mutual recrimination between the Chief Civil and Mechanical
Engineers of the day. He therefore got the support of the CCE, Arthur
Butland, but significantly, not the CME, to start some basic research into
the dynamics of railway vehicles. The writer was fortunate to be recruited
to build up a research group to carry it out. By 1964 a basic scientific
understanding of the hunting problem had been acquired and, for the first
time, it was possible to analyse and mathematically design vehicles that
would be stable up to quite high speeds. This work was exemplified by the
two axle research vehicle, HSFV-1, which was free from hunting on the
roller rig at speeds up to 140 miles per hour. Incidentally, this vehicle
still exists at Derby but after a long life of research work, including
some crucial experiments, this significant vehicle should perhaps be in the
NRM.

During the same period, the BR Passenger Business was showing that rail
could compete with road and air, in spite of the negative aspects of the
Beeching Report. In 1962 the accelerated East Coast Main Line service,
using the Deltic locomotive, increased average speeds from 62 miles per
hour to 75 miles per hour. Electrification of the West Coast Main Line to
Manchester opened in 1966 with journey times reduced by between 20 and 30%.
In both cases there was a positive response in passenger revenue,
suggesting the famous rule that for every 1 mile/h improvement in average
speed a 1% increase in revenue could be expected.

Further afield, in 1964 the Tokyo - Osaka Shin Kansen opened - another
turning point in the renaissance of railways. Completely new infrastructure
allowing speeds of 125 miles per hour or more could be justified by the
enormous volume of traffic - of the order of 120 million passengers per
year compared with roughly 6 million between London and Manchester.

With prevailing Government attitudes, and public environmental concerns, it
was clear that for Britain, new tracks would be difficult to justify, and
the existing extensive railway infrastructure would have to be exploited.
This meant achieving higher speeds in curves. So, in 1966 a simple study on
powered tilting of the car body to increase the allowable speed in curves
for a given level of passenger comfort was carried out by BR Research. As
passenger comfort, and not safety, was the factor limiting speed in curves,
tilting had the same effect as superelevation of the track. Now tilting was
not a new idea - Talgo had developed a pendular tilt system and in the US,
United Aircraft were about to develop the Turbotrain. SNCF had run a
pendular car in the late 1950's. Pendular tilt had serious limitations as
it was slow to respond and required a large loading gauge. Powered tilt
promised to overcome these problems.


APT - E

In 1966, it was decided to set up an Advanced Projects Group to help apply
some of the results of the research work carried out at Derby. With the
emerging background of high speed train activity, a research programme on a
high speed passenger vehicle was proposed to Sydney Jones in November 1966.
This envisaged a quite limited programme involving preliminary project
investigation and supporting research of a trailer vehicle with

* tilt
* single axle trucks
* steering in curves by either mechanical linkage or a control system
* small wheels
* light weight construction of light alloy
* low aerodynamic drag.

For experimental purposes, two trucks and a dummy body would be
manufactured. It is noteworthy that, at this stage, the objectives were
purely technical.

In 1968, Mike Newman joined to head up the project and design side, whilst
Alastair Gilchrist headed the research and technical activities. A small
team was then gathered. Mike Newman made the point that a single research
vehicle would not answer many of the basic questions that were being asked
about a tilting train. Were the weight estimates realistic? Could the tilt
mechanism be put under the floor or was commercial space going to be used?
And so on. Consequently, the scope of the project expanded to encompass
research and development on an experimental train, and other test vehicles
and laboratory experiments were planned. In fact we adopted a systems
engineering approach, familiar in the aircraft industry, where the major
design issues were identified and technical decisions made on the basis of
calculation.

By February 1968 the project studies had developed to encompass a complete
train. In addition to the features in the original proposal, gas turbine
traction was chosen for the experimental train, as the weight targets could
not be met with available diesel engines. The Rolls Royce Dart aircraft
engine was a strong contender, but economics suggested a multiple
installation of a cheap truck engine being developed by Leyland. The very
arduous braking duty was to be met by a hydrokinetic brake.

Because of the Board's sensitivity about high speeds, Sydney Jones called
the train the Advanced Passenger Train, neatly expressing the idea that the
objective was not simply high speed but shorter journey times. The
objectives for the train were

* 50% increase in maximum speed
* 40% increase in curving speed
* to run on existing track with existing signalling
* to maintain existing levels of passenger comfort
* to be efficient in energy consumption
* to generate low community noise levels
* to maintain existing levels of track maintenance
* to achieve a similar cost per seat-kilometre as existing trains

The objectives were now expressed in a form capable of translation into
commercial terms.

In November 1965 Sydney Jones made a proposal to expand railway research.
Though the then chairman, Stanley Raymond, supported the idea it was felt
that the Board's financial situation prevented action but he gave approval
for Sydney Jones to seek government support. Thus, during the years
1965-68, Sydney Jones and Kenneth Spring became familiar figures in the
corridors of power. Seeking this support not only involved the Ministry of
Transport who had a responsibility for railway research under the 1962 Act
but the Government Chief Scientist, Solly Zuckermann, and various Cabinet
Ministers. Success eventually came and it was decided that railway research
generally would be expanded. The APT project would go ahead in late 1968,
to be funded jointly by the Ministry and the Board on a 50:50 basis.

Over the next two and a half years a team was recruited (some, but not the
majority, of whom were from the aircraft industry). Laboratories and test
rigs were built, a test track at Old Dalby was commissioned and the APT-E
train and various test vehicles designed and constructed. About 150
contractors built components and supplied parts with the final assembly at
Derby. It is important to note that an important part of the project was
concerned with the development of computer techniques in dynamics,
aerodynamics, structures, etc. APT-E first ran on 25 July 1971 and was
promptly blacked by ASLEF, the ostensible bone of contention being the
single driver seat in the cab. The train was moved one night, with the help
of a co-operative locomotive inspector, from the laboratory to the
Locomotive Works where some needy modifications were carried out. This move
precipitated a one day national strike that cost far more than the whole of
the annual research budget. APT-E was blacked for over a year.

APT-E demonstrated that active tilting worked, that the tilt mechanism
could all be put under the floor, that weight targets could be met and that
a practicable high speed tilting train could be designed and built. It was
not, nor was it ever intended to be, a practicable commercial train but a
vehicle for engineering development. APT-E achieved 152.4 miles per hour on
the Western Region on 10 August 1975 and demonstrated the value of tilt by
running from Leicester to St.Pancras in 58 minutes 30 seconds on 30 October
1975. After an intensive test programme involving over 20,000 miles of
running APT-E came to the National Railway Museum on the 11 June 1976.


APT-P

As with any research and development project, a major concern was how to
take the project forward beyond APT-E, towards commercial application. In
another industry, a new company might be set up or at least a self
contained entity with all the necessary skills. This was not an option in
the 1970's. With the support of the Board and the Ministry, it was
possible, over a period of time, for Sydney Jones to discuss the delicate
and difficult issues of responsibility with Graham Calder who had become
CME in 1971. Actually, the organisation of the British railway industry,
both operating and manufacturing, was not favourable to new product
development or innovation. It is a tribute to Sydney Jones and Graham
Calder that any way forward was found. It was decided to transfer
responsibility for the prototype service trains together with the APT
design group, to be led by David Boocock, and this was carried out in April
1973.

The project now had the support of the passenger business and some design
work had been carried out on APT-P, to a business specification for the
West Coast Main Line. This solved the problem of traction for the Leyland
truck engine project had collapsed, no other gas turbine was viable and
available diesel engines were too heavy. The specification was for a large
train with 12 trailer cars requiring two power cars and hydrokinetic brakes
to meet the highest speed envisaged of 250 km per hour. Because of the
possible problems of current collection at speed if two pantographs were
used, and because in Britain a 25kV line down the train was not allowed for
safety reasons, the power cars were placed in the centre of the train.

There was a strong school of thought that at this point the technical risks
should be reduced. A joint technical review by CMEE and Research, was
carried out in early 1973, prior to the transfer of the project, having
been suggested as a way of perhaps tempering the specification and reducing
risk. For example, a modest reduction in maximum speed would have led to
considerable simplification. This review was carried out, and the arguments
were very finely balanced. The result was that the full specification
emerged intact. With hindsight, this was unfortunate as the configuration
was not flexible in commercial terms, and the hydrokinetic brake was to
prove a technical liability. Whilst the support of the Passenger Business
was vital, as of course they were the customer, it was a pity that the
stability of a commercial specification was believed. It led to an
inflexible configuration and increased technical risk. Commercial
specifications are, inevitably, changeable according to business
circumstances. Perhaps the specification of the train should not have been
so influenced by the current perceived requirement, but aimed at meeting a
wide range of possible requirements in a flexible way. The interaction
between user requirements and emerging technology is always difficult, and
leads to many mistakes in every industry. As an example, it should be
remembered that the Spitfire was developed by engineers at a time when the
customer, the Air Ministry, wanted a biplane.

In 1973 the Board was offered 80% of the cost of eight trains by the
Ministry. An order for eight trains would have attracted vigorous
participation by manufacturing industry. Unfortunately, after almost two
years of deliberation the Board approved, in mid 1974, the construction of
four trains. This number was subsequently cut to three trains by the
Ministry in a round of public spending cuts. So, understandable financial
caution had the effect of undermining the project. It meant that the
prototype trains would be simply a further stage of development rather than
a mainstream project, with yet another design to follow. By skimping the
allocation of financial resources, the reduction in the size of the build
programme gave a clear message about priorities. The cost of the APT-E
programme was about £2.5 million in 1972 money - a considerable overspend
over the original estimate but a modest amount for what was achieved. The
cost of the APT-P programme is difficult to estimate but cannot be more
than £40 million, including depots and other operational investments and
probably underspent its budget. The small sums, in relation to turnover,
spent on new technology by railways is in sharp contrast with some other
industries. For example, between 1967-1976 Concorde cost £2 billion.

After a protracted period of design and construction, the first power car
was delivered from Derby Locomotive Works, on time, in June 1977. The first
trailer cars were delivered from Derby Carriage and Wagon Works, one year
late, in June 1978. After another industrial dispute, proving trials of the
first complete P-train started in May 1979. In December 1979 the first
P-train achieved another British speed record of 161 miles per hour. The
second P-train was completed in late 1979 and the third in 1980. After all
these delays there was, understandably, great pressure to show that APT
could carry passengers commercially. Though some technical problems emerged
it was decided to put the trains in a limited service. On the 7 December
1981 a successful run was made to Glasgow in the scheduled 4 hours 15
minutes but thereafter the performance of the trains was marred by
technical problems and adverse weather. There is no doubt that APT was put
into the public timetable prematurely, with the result that there were
embarrassing failures and the media had a field day.

Engineering development takes time and this haste was wrong for a
development project. Fiat and ASEA (now ABB) took 20 years to develop
tilting trains with tilt systems with the same specification as APT. Though
both concerns had difficult periods with their projects both in terms of
technical problems and organisational and managerial problems, their
managements and customers took the long term view so vital for
technological development. This long term strategic view was absent from
the thinking of the Ministry and the Board at the critical time when it was
needed.

The tendency at the time was to blame the technology. In reality, most of
the problems were managerial, and the technical problems that existed were
amenable to proper development effort. Unfortunately, during this period a
major reorganisation of the CMEE Dept took place and the APT project team
was disbanded in 1980, with serious effects on the project.

In 1981 the Board decided to get an outside view on the project as a whole.
Ford and Dain were appointed and their report concluded that the technology
was in general sound (with some reservations particularly on the braking
system) but that the management of the project needed changing so that
there was, once again, single minded leadership of the project. John
Mitchell was appointed Project Manager and from then on rapid progress was
made. By 1983, the trains were accumulating mileage satisfactorily and
could have been the basis of development effort as has been carried out by
Fiat and ABB.

Unfortunately, by this time the commercial requirements had changed
completely. The APT was regarded as a train of a specific design, which the
passenger business did not want, instead of a generic technology that could
be applied in a variety of ways. And, so, much of the technology and
experience was thrown away.

As a result of the persistence of Fiat and ABB the number of tilting trains
now in service throughout the world is now approaching 200, in 9 countries.
There are about six tilting systems available, though Fiat and ABB have
most of the market at present. There is vigorous development of improved
tilting systems, but not, of course, in the UK. However, at last, the
benefit of tilting has finally been recognised by the recently announced
orders for the WCML, cross-country and ECML services.


Conclusions

It is tempting to conclude from this story that APT was a disaster. It is
possible to take a different view. As a research project it succeeded in
generating new techniques that are being applied around the world, and
there were many beneficial spin-offs.

But for the stimulus and competition of APT, HST would not have been in
service as early. It might not have existed at all as its development was
initiated as a low risk conventional response to APT. The research on
dynamics is applied on a daily basis by train designers around the world.
The original APT configuration of steerable single axle articulated train
has become one of the leading edges of innovation in train design. The
S-Tog commuter trains in Copenhagen have entered service, and a number of
other single axle projects are underway. The ability to compute dynamic
performance at the design stage, as pioneered with APT, is crucial to
innovative projects of this kind. The work on aerodynamics made a vital
contribution to the channel tunnel and to other high speed train projects
such as the German ICE. The use of light weight Aluminium extrusions welded
longitudinally has become a major manufacturing method. The Class 91
locomotive is a direct descendent of APT. The existence of APT forced
Government to look at intercity transport in general and where development
money was going. An interdepartmental working party reported in December
1971 on the comparative assessment of new forms of intercity transport. It
compared viability of buses, APT, VTOL, STOL, and tracked hovercraft on the
London-Manchester and London-Glasgow routes. The report was favourable to
rail and not so to tracked hovercraft. Work on tracked hovercraft was
subsequently cancelled by the Government.

The failings in the APT project were largely those of the environment in
which engineering was carried out on BR. It has been said that there was a
lack of strategic vision and inability to manage innovation. But in fact
there was enough vision to fund research much of which was very successful.
The structure of the industry, in which one organisation ran trains,
specified, designed and built vehicles, supported by a manufacturing
industry which was not encouraged to take technical initiative, stacked the
cards against an innovative project like APT. Moreover, the engineering
culture on railways had been to design, build, deliver and sort out the
problems in service - a procedure appropriate to evolutionary and
incremental changes to technology. APT involved a large change in
technology and required sustained engineering development before
application in service. The tilting technology itself was eventually made
to work, and as Fiat and ABB and others have shown was well judged both in
concept and specification.

© Professor Alan Wickens, formerly Director Advanced Projects, Research
Dept. British Railways Board