Found these nice shots of P train on Youtube, not sure if they have been posted before.

P train is near the end....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Nb4V2IP-ec&feature=related

Hi all,
Please see

www.apt-e.org/support/support.htm

News and new photos of HSFV1 in Serco yard, Derby.

Thanks to Paul and Barrie Worthington for all there help regaurds this.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.

Note :

A meeting with the NRM on the 15th or 18th of this month is being planned to try and resolve the issues which are stopping the support group woring on E train.

Wish me luck!!!!!

I am also going to raise the issue of HSFV1 again with then.

Sanctuary Group Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700 View our disclaimer at: http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html

“I’d like the APT-E here – it needs more care and would be a good
exhibit”.



He's right, of course. Now if only he were running the show, rather
than merely working for it...

Well, wouldnt that be just great, a couple of problems here.........

It needs more care, YES, but the NRM wont let us do anything about it.

Im having a meeting with the NRM on the 15th or 18th of Sept to see if we can find a work around about the issues, so we can start work again.

If the support group dont work on E train, who is, the NRM staff dont know anything about it. They needed me and Kits help to get the train up to Shildon in the first place. The NRMs origional idea was to cut the train apart!!!!!!!

There is so much work we could do to etrain, but most of it will require money, and because E train doesnt have a boiler, they dont seem to be interested, FACT!

MAkes my blood boil about all the work the support group did to conserve the train and the NRM have just cut us off........

To coin a fraze from Kit, rant mode concel.

Paul, I couldnt agree more....................

Refusing to take HSFV1 also proves this point. Although not much to look at, it is the key developement item for high speed railways, world wide. They just want to see it scrapped, crazy.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I must stop before my head explodes in anger....

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Rowlinson" <paul.rowlinson@...> wrote:
>
> Why don't they just rename it National Steam Railway Museum?
>
>
>
> The same comments could also apply to the P train. However with that one
> its out of sight out of mind and slowly rotting away
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> Paul Rowlinson
>
> Head of Operations, London
>
> Sanctuary Management Services
>
> Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,
>
> London, N1 9NF
>
>
>
> Tel: 0207 812 0022
>
> Mob: 07787 834807
>
>
>
> Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group
>
>
>
> paul.rowlinson@...
> <mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Silver_Dream_Racer
> Sent: 07 September 2009 11:13
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> Extract from Railways Illustrated
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, wouldnt that be just great, a couple of problems here.........
>
> It needs more care, YES, but the NRM wont let us do anything about it.
>
> Im having a meeting with the NRM on the 15th or 18th of Sept to see if
> we can find a work around about the issues, so we can start work again.
>
> If the support group dont work on E train, who is, the NRM staff dont
> know anything about it. They needed me and Kits help to get the train up
> to Shildon in the first place. The NRMs origional idea was to cut the
> train apart!!!!!!!
>
> There is so much work we could do to etrain, but most of it will require
> money, and because E train doesnt have a boiler, they dont seem to be
> interested, FACT!
>
> MAkes my blood boil about all the work the support group did to conserve
> the train and the NRM have just cut us off........
>
> To coin a fraze from Kit, rant mode concel.
>
>
>
>
>
> Click here
> <https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
> TJzIDpxeC8ATt0Lge0bib75sufuW0CCYNVt8TccP!XTbKg==> to report this email
> as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
> (Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
> confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)
>
>
>
>
>
> Sanctuary Group
> Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
> Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700
>
> View our disclaimer at: http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html
>

Sadly Paul, I think it is!!!

And YES they are, but that isnt going to change there mind.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Rowlinson" <paul.rowlinson@...> wrote:
>
> Don't they have a legal duty to consider items of historical interest?
> As you say HSF1 has contributes so much to the current railway that
> without it we would probably still have short wheelbase wagons trundling
> around at 25mph - or is that the vision that NSRM seem to be stuck in.
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> Paul Rowlinson
>
> Head of Operations, London
>
> Sanctuary Management Services
>
> Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,
>
> London, N1 9NF
>
>
>
> Tel: 0207 812 0022
>
> Mob: 07787 834807
>
>
>
> Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group
>
>
>
> paul.rowlinson@...
> <mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Silver_Dream_Racer
> Sent: 07 September 2009 17:40
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> Extract from Railways Illustrated
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul, I couldnt agree more....................
>
> Refusing to take HSFV1 also proves this point. Although not much to look
> at, it is the key developement item for high speed railways, world wide.
> They just want to see it scrapped, crazy.
>
> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I must stop before my head explodes in
> anger....
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com> , "Paul Rowlinson"
> <paul.rowlinson@> wrote:
> >
> > Why don't they just rename it National Steam Railway Museum?
> >
> >
> >
> > The same comments could also apply to the P train. However with that
> one
> > its out of sight out of mind and slowly rotting away
> >
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul Rowlinson
> >
> > Head of Operations, London
> >
> > Sanctuary Management Services
> >
> > Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,
> >
> > London, N1 9NF
> >
> >
> >
> > Tel: 0207 812 0022
> >
> > Mob: 07787 834807
> >
> >
> >
> > Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group
> >
> >
> >
> > paul.rowlinson@
> > <mailto:paul.rowlinson@>
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > Silver_Dream_Racer
> > Sent: 07 September 2009 11:13
> > To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: <APT Group> Extract from Railways Illustrated
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, wouldnt that be just great, a couple of problems here.........
> >
> > It needs more care, YES, but the NRM wont let us do anything about it.
> >
> > Im having a meeting with the NRM on the 15th or 18th of Sept to see if
> > we can find a work around about the issues, so we can start work
> again.
> >
> > If the support group dont work on E train, who is, the NRM staff dont
> > know anything about it. They needed me and Kits help to get the train
> up
> > to Shildon in the first place. The NRMs origional idea was to cut the
> > train apart!!!!!!!
> >
> > There is so much work we could do to etrain, but most of it will
> require
> > money, and because E train doesnt have a boiler, they dont seem to be
> > interested, FACT!
> >
> > MAkes my blood boil about all the work the support group did to
> conserve
> > the train and the NRM have just cut us off........
> >
> > To coin a fraze from Kit, rant mode concel.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Click here
> > <https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
> <https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==>
> > TJzIDpxeC8ATt0Lge0bib75sufuW0CCYNVt8TccP!XTbKg==> to report this email
> > as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
> > (Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
> > confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sanctuary Group
> > Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
> > Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700
> >
> > View our disclaimer at:
> http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html
> <http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html>
> >
>

Paul,

HSFV1 is even more important than that. Alan Wickens research on the problems with freight wagon derailments, using HSFV1, was the basis for all the high speed rail/wheel dynamics used on APT and all other high speed trains world wide. That's excepting Shin Kansen type vehicles though, they use their own brand of 'dymanics'.

As for APT-P, I suspect the NRM are only too glad that it's hidden from view at present, assuming we're talking about the Power Car at Shildon. The APT-P at Crewe isn't under the NRM's control, and I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Answers on a postcard....

Regards
Kit
(currently on holiday in the IoM and only on-line now and then)

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Rowlinson" <paul.rowlinson@...> wrote:
>
> Don't they have a legal duty to consider items of historical interest?
> As you say HSF1 has contributes so much to the current railway that
> without it we would probably still have short wheelbase wagons trundling
> around at 25mph - or is that the vision that NSRM seem to be stuck in.
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> Paul Rowlinson
>

Hi all,
Needless to say, the NRM canceled the meeting about E train, I will keep you posted.

Regards

Paul

Hi All,
I have now had comfirmation that a meeting will take place on the 15th October at the NRM, to try and resolve the issues stopping the support group from working on E train.

Myself and Kit will be attending, and if need be kicking some butt!!!

I will keep you all posted.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Can someone please arrange to take detailed minutes of this meeting
-- with hidden recording devices if need be... ;-}

I for one would like to hear, in as close to the 'original words' as
possible, exactly what the NRM folks believe (or at least claim) the
issues and situations to be.


RME

Hi All,
I will let everyone know what the NRM say after the 15th October, with luck, the news will be good and constructive!!

Watch this space..............................

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group & HSFV1 Action Group.

Hi All,

Some great news about HSFV1.

http://www.apt-e.org/support/support.htm

Also in the next few days, good news about APT-E.

I will let you know when Ive completed the web page.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group + HSFV1 Action Group.

Well done Paul and Kit. David 1/2d

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Silver_Dream_Racer" <PAUL@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:35 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> HSFV1 update

> Hi All,
>
> Some great news about HSFV1.
>

Found this video on you tube

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuCIwkdVU4

 

around about 17 seconds in there is a test train with what looks like HSFV1 can anyone confirm that.

 

Steve

Attachments :

Found this video on you tube

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuCIwkdVU4

 

around about 17 seconds in there is a test train with what looks like HSFV1 can anyone confirm that.

 

Steve

I've watched this about 10 times now.... <g>

Actually I think it is HSFV1, but perhaps in its early days?

The frame is very similar to that on the vehicle now, but has only the longitudinal rail sections on its bed, not the ballast packs. The side frames are just the same as it is now, complete with the upward kink to the bottom of the frame above the wheelsests. The buffer beans are also exactly as HSFV1 is now, so I tend to the conclusion that the vid was shot when Alan Wickens was doing the early reasearch into wheel curving.

There are under-chassis lights clearly visible which indicates the test engineers were interested in the wheelsest behaviour, and maybe the red bits were primer paint on some early suspension bracketry?

It's a pity we don't have more detailed information on HSFV1's early days, what changes were made and when etc. and it would good to know if the NRM have any of that filed away.

Having re-watched it an 11th time it must have been taken early on, as the 45/46 on the head end has the small size yellow panel and the test cars are not in the later red/blue scheme either.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry Bates" <gerry@...> wrote:
>
> This is the best I could do to obtain and improve a still from the video.
>
>
>
> Very difficult to be sure, of course, but I don't see the brackets and other features of HSFV1's suspension,
>
> But if it isn't, then what is it? Is it a bogie vehicle? Do I see yaw dampers in the red areas?
>
> Regards
>
> Gerry
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 21/10/2009 at 17:22 SJones7505@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Found this video on you tube
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuCIwkdVU4
>
> around about 17 seconds in there is a test train with what looks like HSFV1 can anyone confirm that.
>
> Steve
>

Ive just spent the last hour, watching the clip agin and again, while comparing bits with HSFV1 as it now.

I think Kit is spot on the money, its all very interesting.

The quality of the film is fantastic also.

Funny how this has appeared when a lot of work has been going on into getting HSFV1 saved.

Fantastic stuff.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...> wrote:
>
> I've watched this about 10 times now.... <g>
>
> Actually I think it is HSFV1, but perhaps in its early days?
>
> The frame is very similar to that on the vehicle now, but has only the longitudinal rail sections on its bed, not the ballast packs. The side frames are just the same as it is now, complete with the upward kink to the bottom of the frame above the wheelsests. The buffer beans are also exactly as HSFV1 is now, so I tend to the conclusion that the vid was shot when Alan Wickens was doing the early reasearch into wheel curving.
>
> There are under-chassis lights clearly visible which indicates the test engineers were interested in the wheelsest behaviour, and maybe the red bits were primer paint on some early suspension bracketry?
>
> It's a pity we don't have more detailed information on HSFV1's early days, what changes were made and when etc. and it would good to know if the NRM have any of that filed away.
>
> Having re-watched it an 11th time it must have been taken early on, as the 45/46 on the head end has the small size yellow panel and the test cars are not in the later red/blue scheme either.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry Bates" <gerry@> wrote:
> >
> > This is the best I could do to obtain and improve a still from the video.
> >
> >
> >
> > Very difficult to be sure, of course, but I don't see the brackets and other features of HSFV1's suspension,
> >
> > But if it isn't, then what is it? Is it a bogie vehicle? Do I see yaw dampers in the red areas?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Gerry
> >
> > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
> >
> > On 21/10/2009 at 17:22 SJones7505@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Found this video on you tube
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuCIwkdVU4
> >
> > around about 17 seconds in there is a test train with what looks like HSFV1 can anyone confirm that.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>

Hi All,
Kits just informed me that this months The Railway Magazine has a mention in the classic traction section of our rescue project for HSFV1.

All good press for the project, which we awaiting news on from the NRM.

Regards

Paul

Alan,

Yes! <g>

All the door pairs on the whole train are the same, they aren't handed and the joint module doors are the same mouldings as the PC service bay doors. The joint-line between the two halves isn't at 90 deg to the side of the train however, to enable one door to close over the top of its partner, thus locking both in position. The doors halves are also assymetric in that the left half is narrower than the right half. That means the split line is offset to the left, but if you saw it from the inside it would also be slightly offset to the left as well as it's angled.

Quite why the drawings show a centre split I'm not sure, as I don't think there ever was a plan to do that, the door pairs were always designed to have the slanted joint line.

In the 'Kit Spackman Collection' pages on Paul's E-Train site, there's one photo that shows the assymetry of the door halves quite clearly. Go to the 2nd batch of phots 'Material taken during the trials of APT-E', the sixth row down and the 3rd photo from the left.

That shows the joint module with the doors open and you can see how the left half is much narrower than the right half and you can envisage the slanted joint line. In the photo above and to its right, the one with the two train crew looking dwon at the PC bogie, you can see the difference in width of the PC service bay doors as well.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe" <a2cmodel@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> All the drawings I have seen show the centre join between the two halves of the double doors on the side of the PCs and articulation units as being down the centre. Photos of the articulation units show that the centre join (closing line) is offset to the left and not down the middle.
>
> Are the ones on the sides of the PCs similarly offset?
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
>

----- Original Message -----

From: misterrtilt

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:38 AM

Subject: <APT Group> Re:APT-E double doors

 

Alan,

Yes! <g>

All the door pairs on the whole train are the same, they aren't handed and the joint module doors are the same mouldings as the PC service bay doors. The joint-line between the two halves isn't at 90 deg to the side of the train however, to enable one door to close over the top of its partner, thus locking both in position. The doors halves are also assymetric in that the left half is narrower than the right half. That means the split line is offset to the left, but if you saw it from the inside it would also be slightly offset to the left as well as it's angled.

Quite why the drawings show a centre split I'm not sure, as I don't think there ever was a plan to do that, the door pairs were always designed to have the slanted joint line.

In the 'Kit Spackman Collection' pages on Paul's E-Train site, there's one photo that shows the assymetry of the door halves quite clearly. Go to the 2nd batch of phots 'Material taken during the trials of APT-E', the sixth row down and the 3rd photo from the left.

That shows the joint module with the doors open and you can see how the left half is much narrower than the right half and you can envisage the slanted joint line. In the photo above and to its right, the one with the two train crew looking dwon at the PC bogie, you can see the difference in width of the PC service bay doors as well.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com, "Alan Coombe" <a2cmodel@.. .> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> All the drawings I have seen show the centre join between the two halves of the double doors on the side of the PCs and articulation units as being down the centre. Photos of the articulation units show that the centre join (closing line) is offset to the left and not down the middle.
>
> Are the ones on the sides of the PCs similarly offset?
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
>

I met Alastair and Margaret Gilchrist on a train yesterday.

[Dr Gilchrist was head of APT Development under Dr Wickens.]

He is acting as Archivist for BR Research Division, working with the Public
Records Office, the NRM and a variety of rail industry contacts.

He doesn't use the internet and was unaware of this group's existence. He
is vaguely aware of David Coxon's website.

One of the things we discussed was APT-E drawings. He believes that the
original drawings are in the NRM but uncatalogued. He has tried to track
down the drawing Registers from Bob Francis's drawing office. The last
sighting of them that he knows about seems to have been 12 years ago, but
he remains hopeful that they may have survived.

Another was HSFV1, and he is delighted that there is now hope for it,
having been disappointed by the NRM's lack of interest in the past.

He would welcome contact, and his name and address are in the public phone
book.

David 1/2d

Now that raises an interesting point.

As the APT-E Support Group actually own the train, do we not now also own the copyright to the drawings? After all the original copyright holder, British Rail Research, no longer exists, and divested themselves of the responsibility for the drawings when they sent the train to the NRM. Not to mention that it was 33 years ago now. How long does such copyright last for, etc?

Met Cam's drawings may not be correct vis a vis the train as it exists as it had numerous serious modifications after the frames arrived at Derby, but it would interesting to compare those with the existing hardware.

Paul recently came across a drawing of TC2 which shows the proposed Auxiliary Tilt Pack, that was intended to be right across the corridor from my seat, but was never fitted. There were many schemes proposed, and many mods made without any drawings as well, so the relevancy of any particular drawing needs to be treated with some circumspection.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Rowlinson" <paul.rowlinson@...> wrote:
>
> David
>
>
>
> They were certainly there in the 1980's as they copied some of them for
> me after I made a fuss. The ones they could not find were relating to
> the power cars although I subsequently came across a copy at a model
> railway exhibition and I believe this to be one of the working drawings
> that Met Cam had. I did write to them at the time but their official
> response was that all drawings were returned to British Rail.
>
>
>
> These drawings have been scanned by Alan Coombe and I have copies but
> we do not believe that copyright permits them to be put on the Internet
> or on general release.
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> Paul Rowlinson
>
> Head of Operations, London
>
> Sanctuary Management Services
>
> Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,
>
> London, N1 9NF
>
>
>
> Tel: 0207 812 0022
>
> Mob: 07787 834807
>
>
>
> Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group
>
>
>
> paul.rowlinson@...
> <mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
> Halfpenny gmail
> Sent: 29 November 2009 20:36
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: <APT Group> RD Archivist
>
>
>
>
>
> I met Alastair and Margaret Gilchrist on a train yesterday.
>
> [Dr Gilchrist was head of APT Development under Dr Wickens.]
>
> He is acting as Archivist for BR Research Division, working with the
> Public
> Records Office, the NRM and a variety of rail industry contacts.
>
> He doesn't use the internet and was unaware of this group's existence.
> He
> is vaguely aware of David Coxon's website.
>
> One of the things we discussed was APT-E drawings. He believes that the
> original drawings are in the NRM but uncatalogued. He has tried to track
>
> down the drawing Registers from Bob Francis's drawing office. The last
> sighting of them that he knows about seems to have been 12 years ago,
> but
> he remains hopeful that they may have survived.
>
> Another was HSFV1, and he is delighted that there is now hope for it,
> having been disappointed by the NRM's lack of interest in the past.
>
> He would welcome contact, and his name and address are in the public
> phone
> book.
>
> David 1/2d

On 2 Dec 2009, at 16:08, misterrtilt wrote:

> As the APT-E Support Group actually own the train, do we not now
> also own the copyright to the drawings? After all the original
> copyright holder, British Rail Research, no longer exists, and
> divested themselves of the responsibility for the drawings when they
> sent the train to the NRM. Not to mention that it was 33 years ago
> now. How long does such copyright last for, etc?

The BR Board still exists...

http://www.brb.gov.uk
(I prefer the barbed wire logo!)

Nick

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Rowlinson" <paul.rowlinson@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:19 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: <APT Group> RD Archivist

> 50 years rings a bell for copyright but I may be wrong.
>

Copyright has been extended considerably beyond that.


First port of call for Intellectual Property issues is:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/

and failing that a trawl through the Act itself, best read as a PDF from
the IPO since that includes all the amendments since it was drafted.

- Technical drawings are considered Graphic Works, which is a subset of
Artistic Works.

- We can discount the role of Contract Draughtsmen that far back - these
days the Contractor may hold the Copyright rather than the Commissioner,
but not back then.

- I've not found a specific reference to Corporate Copyright, but Copyright
in Artistic Works is normally 70 years from the end of the calendar year in
which the last remaining author of the work dies.
If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of
the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made
available to the public during that time, (by publication, exhibition,
etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the
work was first made available.

David 1/2d

Hi all,

Kit wrote, "As the APT-E Support Group actually own the train,"

When did this happen? Missed that bit of news.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

Dealing with the copyright issue first....

What good does it do ANYone, BRB (Residual) PLC, the Contractors who drew the drawings, or the NRM, to get bloody-minded about the copyright because no-ones going to build another E-Train! Or if they do it wil be us!

I really don't see why there should be any issue here, are we likely to mass produce the drawings and sell them on ebay? No, we want access to them so we can do work on the train! In any case someone already has done the ebay selling business and no doubt made a pretty penny out of it, but did anyone sue them for loss of copyright? Not as far as I heard anyway.

The the Support Group owning E-Train, a certain Mr Leadley mentioned this a short while ago, and it seems this took place way back when the NRM were talking about scrapping her. And a good thing we did too.

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe" <a2cmodel@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Kit wrote, "As the APT-E Support Group actually own the train,"
>
> When did this happen? Missed that bit of news.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:10 PM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: <APT Group> RD Archivist

> Dealing with the copyright issue first....
>
> What good does it do ANYone, BRB (Residual) PLC, the Contractors who drew
> the drawings, or the NRM, to get bloody-minded about the copyright
> because no-ones going to build another E-Train! Or if they do it wil be
> us!

Absolutely.
In any case, it isn't a Copyright infringement to use the drawings to make
another E-train. That's a modeller's myth.

The only possible legal issue is publishing the original drawings.

David 1/2d

The copyright on the drawings will still inhere with the BRB residuary.
Owning something that is based on drawings does not make you the owner of
copyright of the drawings, even if it is a unique example.. I do not own the
copyright on drawings of my car just because I own an example. Neither do I
own the patent rights, which is actually a more important issue here.
There should be no problem with making copies of the drawings for research
purposes, including maintaining the thing. The law on copyright allows
plenty of loopholes - ones large enough to drive a tilting train through!

Miss Tanya Jane Jackson

HMRS Transfer Development Manager and British Rail carriage steward
www.hmrs.org.uk
transfersdev@...

List owner: LMSReg
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lmsreg

List owner: Trackwork
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/trackwork/

Not quite the point I feel, There is only ONE E-Train and in reality there will only ever be one.

And when it comes down to details, do I own the copyright of the first Mk 2 Tilt Pack Assembly drawing because I sketched it out, or does Alison Allan own it as she actually drew the final drg. Or does Alison's employers at the time own it, as she was a contractor draughtswoman, or does BRB (Residual) own it?

As I mentioned before, there have been books of these drawings sold on ebay in the past, and did anyone sue anyone? If they did it was all very hushed up.

And in the end does it matter and who cares?

What is the issue about anyway?

Regards
Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "tanyajane" <tanyajane@...> wrote:
>
> The copyright on the drawings will still inhere with the BRB residuary.
> Owning something that is based on drawings does not make you the owner of
> copyright of the drawings, even if it is a unique example.. I do not own the
> copyright on drawings of my car just because I own an example. Neither do I
> own the patent rights, which is actually a more important issue here.
> There should be no problem with making copies of the drawings for research
> purposes, including maintaining the thing. The law on copyright allows
> plenty of loopholes - ones large enough to drive a tilting train through!
>
> Miss Tanya Jane Jackson
>
> HMRS Transfer Development Manager and British Rail carriage steward
> www.hmrs.org.uk
> transfersdev@...
>
> List owner: LMSReg
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lmsreg
>
> List owner: Trackwork
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/trackwork/
>

-------------------------------------------------
From: "misterrtilt" <bosspecops@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:11 AM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: <APT Group> RD Archivist

> Not quite the point I feel, There is only ONE E-Train and in reality
> there will only ever be one.
>
> And when it comes down to details, do I own the copyright of the first Mk
> 2 Tilt Pack Assembly drawing because I sketched it out, or does Alison
> Allan own it as she actually drew the final drg. Or does Alison's
> employers at the time own it, as she was a contractor draughtswoman, or
> does BRB (Residual) own it?

The technical answer is that because of how the law stood at the time BRB
owns the Copyright, rather than the designer, draughtsman, or contractor.

Modellers often imagine that the Copyright owner controls the use made of
the drawing. That's a fundamental misunderstanding: anyone can use the
drawing to maintain or replicate the tilt pack.
(Design rights are a different type of law that we don't need to dig up
here.)

> What is the issue about anyway?

On the human side, one always gets better cooperation out of people when
they feel treated with respect.
The Copyright Act acknowledges that by saying that even when one has a
legal right to use somebody else's Copyright material without their
permission, one should Acknowledge the source.

On the legal side, we should carry on doing what's sensible - in a
respectful way, eg giving due acknowledgement.
We don't need to back off unless some Jobsworth actually threatens
legal action.

David 1/2d

Hi All,
Kit is right, the APT-E Conservation & Support Group technically own APT-E. It was sold to us for £1 in 1999, it was done really to stop the Science Museum from helping themselfs to any part of E train, which could have been the case before we took ownership.

It was an idea put together by myself and Richard as he, and I was paniced when we found out that the NMSI could take any part of the train, and anothing else for that matter, whenever they felt like it.

So, documentation was put in place so this could never happen, its more a legal thing that anything else, but the agreement still stands so the NMSI cannot do a thing about it.

I felt that, if we (the group) were going to put in time and effort into restoring E train, I didnt want the NMSI to step in, and just take her away. Its kept the train safe from that point on.

Hope that has cleared that up.

Hate to do this, but if you own an origional drawing, like I do own several, surly the copyright for that single origional drawing goes to the present owner, Ive seen this many times in the past!!!!

Regards

Paul

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Silver_Dream_Racer" <PAUL@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:49 PM

> if you own an origional drawing, . . surely the copyright for that
> single origional drawing goes to the present owner,

Not in law.

But don't worry about it.

David 1/2d

Hi All

Martin Corbett's long awaited APT-P for BVE has now been released - see

http://bvetmd.org.uk/

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Rob

Following your message I was inspired to download openBVE, which I hadn't heard of before. However, I'm left somewhat bewildered - there doesn't seem to be any source of help for the application. There is the forum but I'm not sure it's where to take 'getting started' questions.

I can't work out where to get routes from nor what to do with the route and train data when I've downloaded it. Has anyone done a simple 'get-you-going' help file for the system?

Regards

Gerry Bates


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 31/12/2009 at 16:50 aptp370 wrote:

>Hi All
>
>Martin Corbett's long awaited APT-P for BVE has now been released - see
>
>http://bvetmd.org.uk/
>
>Best wishes
>
>
>Rob
>www.apt-p.com
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro.........

http://videovault.dyndns.org:8080/etrain.htm

This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.

Have your speaker on.

Hope you enjoy.

E train has never been so out-spoken!!!!

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.

----- Original Message -----

From: Silver_Dream_Racer

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM

Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......

 

Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro....... ..

http://videovault. dyndns.org: 8080/etrain. htm

This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.

Have your speaker on.

Hope you enjoy.

E train has never been so out-spoken!! !!

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.

Excellent Paul !! A great idea & ten out of ten for [factual] enjoyment :-)

Keep up the good work,
Andy

----- Original Message -----

From: Silver_Dream_Racer

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM

Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......

 

Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro....... ..

http://videovault. dyndns.org: 8080/etrain. htm

This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.

Have your speaker on.

Hope you enjoy.

E train has never been so out-spoken!! !!

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.

I guess it does Tim..................

Gonna find a better voice, as I can record anything via a wav file and them give E train to talk, its great fun.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> dose this also make it the first speaking train aswell?
> coz thomas and friends arnt real are they!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silver_Dream_Racer
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM
> Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......
>
>
>
> Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro.........
>
> http://videovault.dyndns.org:8080/etrain.htm
>
> This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.
>
> Have your speaker on.
>
> Hope you enjoy.
>
> E train has never been so out-spoken!!!!
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Silver_Dream_Racer

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:25 AM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......

 

I guess it does Tim......... .........

Gonna find a better voice, as I can record anything via a wav file and them give E train to talk, its great fun.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> dose this also make it the first speaking train aswell?
> coz thomas and friends arnt real are they!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silver_Dream_ Racer
> To: Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM
> Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website..... .
>
>
>
> Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro....... ..
>
> http://videovault. dyndns.org: 8080/etrain. htm
>
> This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.
>
> Have your speaker on.
>
> Hope you enjoy.
>
> E train has never been so out-spoken!! !!
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
>

OOOOOOh, look at the size of those turbines. LOL!!!!!

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> well as e-train is slim, beutifull, sofisticated, nice curves, and has a nak to charm you. the voice should reflect this i think? mmmm? could always hold a beuty pagent to see whos worthy enuf for such an honerd privalage of being the voice of e-train??? bikinis alowed!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silver_Dream_Racer
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......
>
>
>
> I guess it does Tim..................
>
> Gonna find a better voice, as I can record anything via a wav file and them give E train to talk, its great fun.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@> wrote:
> >
> > dose this also make it the first speaking train aswell?
> > coz thomas and friends arnt real are they!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Silver_Dream_Racer
> > To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM
> > Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro.........
> >
> > http://videovault.dyndns.org:8080/etrain.htm
> >
> > This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.
> >
> > Have your speaker on.
> >
> > Hope you enjoy.
> >
> > E train has never been so out-spoken!!!!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> > APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
> >
>

Attachments :

122109021751.jpg

----- Original Message -----

From: Silver_Dream_Racer

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:19 PM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......

 

OOOOOOh, look at the size of those turbines. LOL!!!!!

--- In Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> well as e-train is slim, beutifull, sofisticated, nice curves, and has a nak to charm you. the voice should reflect this i think? mmmm? could always hold a beuty pagent to see whos worthy enuf for such an honerd privalage of being the voice of e-train??? bikinis alowed!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silver_Dream_ Racer
> To: Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website..... .
>
>
>
> I guess it does Tim......... .........
>
> Gonna find a better voice, as I can record anything via a wav file and them give E train to talk, its great fun.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@> wrote:
> >
> > dose this also make it the first speaking train aswell?
> > coz thomas and friends arnt real are they!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Silver_Dream_ Racer
> > To: Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM
> > Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website..... .
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro....... ..
> >
> > http://videovault. dyndns.org: 8080/etrain. htm
> >
> > This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.
> >
> > Have your speaker on.
> >
> > Hope you enjoy.
> >
> > E train has never been so out-spoken!! !!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> > APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
> >
>

Hi Tim,
I cannot see the piccy, sent it to my normal email address please.

I HATE TO THINK!!!! lol

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> maybe one of the dancers in my club?? or maybe i should use them as chere leaders for e-train? mmm you giving me to many idears now paul ha ha
> check out the attacht photo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silver_Dream_Racer
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:19 PM
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......
>
>
>
> OOOOOOh, look at the size of those turbines. LOL!!!!!
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@> wrote:
> >
> > well as e-train is slim, beutifull, sofisticated, nice curves, and has a nak to charm you. the voice should reflect this i think? mmmm? could always hold a beuty pagent to see whos worthy enuf for such an honerd privalage of being the voice of e-train??? bikinis alowed!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Silver_Dream_Racer
> > To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess it does Tim..................
> >
> > Gonna find a better voice, as I can record anything via a wav file and them give E train to talk, its great fun.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@> wrote:
> > >
> > > dose this also make it the first speaking train aswell?
> > > coz thomas and friends arnt real are they!
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Silver_Dream_Racer
> > > To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM
> > > Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website......
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro.........
> > >
> > > http://videovault.dyndns.org:8080/etrain.htm
> > >
> > > This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.
> > >
> > > Have your speaker on.
> > >
> > > Hope you enjoy.
> > >
> > > E train has never been so out-spoken!!!!
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
> > >
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: t.sage

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 8:46 PM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website...... [1 Attachment]

 

maybe one of the dancers in my club?? or maybe i should use them as chere leaders for e-train? mmm you giving me to many idears now paul ha ha

check out the attacht photo

----- Original Message -----

From: Silver_Dream_ Racer

To: Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com

Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:19 PM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website..... .

 

OOOOOOh, look at the size of those turbines. LOL!!!!!

--- In Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@...> wrote:
>
> well as e-train is slim, beutifull, sofisticated, nice curves, and has a nak to charm you. the voice should reflect this i think? mmmm? could always hold a beuty pagent to see whos worthy enuf for such an honerd privalage of being the voice of e-train??? bikinis alowed!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silver_Dream_ Racer
> To: Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website..... .
>
>
>
> I guess it does Tim......... .........
>
> Gonna find a better voice, as I can record anything via a wav file and them give E train to talk, its great fun.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com, "t.sage" <T.SAGE@> wrote:
> >
> > dose this also make it the first speaking train aswell?
> > coz thomas and friends arnt real are they!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Silver_Dream_ Racer
> > To: Advanced-Passenger- Train@yahoogroup s.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:58 PM
> > Subject: <APT Group> A bit of fun while I am working on a new E train website..... .
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe gonna use something like this on the intro....... ..
> >
> > http://videovault. dyndns.org: 8080/etrain. htm
> >
> > This is hosted on my home web server so it may take a little whiloe to start.
> >
> > Have your speaker on.
> >
> > Hope you enjoy.
> >
> > E train has never been so out-spoken!! !!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> > APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
> >
>