This was posted to another group and may be useful...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/British-Rail-Advanced-Passenger-Train-APT-Drawings_W0QQitemZ270331723147QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item270331723147

Also this one but unfortunately they have sold out - however the seller may re-list something similar in future (or possibly see a copy other than via ebay on request?)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/British-Rail-Departmental-Research-Vehicles-RTC_W0QQitemZ270331959416QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item270331959416

(The details are still there if you scroll down)


Bod

Hi all,

Thanks Tony - have ordered my copy.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony M
To: advanced-passenger-train@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: <APT Group> Trailer Car Question and Question about Hastings Lab 4


This was posted to another group and may be useful...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/British-Rail-Advanced-Passenger-Train-APT-Drawings_W0QQitemZ270331723147QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item270331723147

Also this one but unfortunately they have sold out - however the seller may re-list something similar in future (or possibly see a copy other than via ebay on request?)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/British-Rail-Departmental-Research-Vehicles-RTC_W0QQitemZ270331959416QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item270331959416

(The details are still there if you scroll down)

Bod




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kit



Thanks for the most helpful response. It does help to explain the
formation of the train, a factor I had not even considered!



regards



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kit
Spackman
Sent: 21 January 2009 18:46
To: APT Group
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Trailer Car Question and Question about
Hastings Lab 4



Paul,

>He has asked of the sides of the train are identical but
>mirror images. As far as I can tell from the drawings I have this is

the

>case apart from trailer car 1 where the plans seem to show different
>locations for the windows on each side for one half of the coach. Can
>anyone confirm this?<

As far as I can recall, and as far as my photos show, TC1 and TC2 are
mirror images left to right, but they are NOT mirrors end to end. This
is
because of the aircon grilles that are only at one end of each vehicle.
They were marshalled the same way round, with the aircon grilles at the
same end, toward PC2. This also obtained when the train was in 3-car
form
in the early days with only TC2 in the consist, ie it was marshalled
aircon
grille at the PC2 end.

In fact it was impossible to marshall them any other way, as we know to
our
cost now the train is at Shildon. Because the pin joints at each end are
gender sensitive it would not be possible to turn each coach the other
way
round as we'd have two male pin-joints together and two female joints on
the other pair. That's exactly the situation we have at Shildon now, due
to
a screw-up when the vehicles were unloaded and placed on the track.
We're
still thinking how to solve that.

Re TC1, it does tend to look asymmetrical as half the windows are
different
to the others. Only the VIP end windows are mirrored, as all of them on
TC2, and the PC1 end windows are clear glass on both sides. That's why
you
can see the tilt pack cover of TC1 but not that of TC2. The centre pair
of
windows of TC1 don't line up exactly with the interior trim and you can
see
the trim framework through the window at the PC1 end. These were the
worst
leaking windows when we started the re-build in 2000, and they've been
changed at least twice now, maybe three times. Paul Leadley will
remember
for sure, as he did most of it! <g>

>This was published by Avon Anglia and principally concerns the P
>train. There are some good photos of he E train as a prelude and an
>interesting photo of the bogies (H4X) under lab 4. These seem to have a
>remarkable resemblance to the E1T bogies although suspension and tilt
>arrangements are different. Does anyone know anything about these? I
>think the photo has been published before as it is described as a
>publicity shot showing the effect of the tilt. I seem to recall Lab 4
>was acquired by Hastings diesels as it was the only surviving Hastings
>Buffet Unit and taken to St Leonard's where I presume it still is
>complete with bogies. I don't know what they intended to do with this
>coach - presumably convert it back to original condition - sacrilege! <

Firstlt, have no fear, Hastings still exists complete with both its H4X
bogies, see later on in this posting.

The H4X bogies used a modified design of the EIT bogie frame and
similar,
but not identical axle boxes etc, but that's as far as it went. E1Ts had
their secondary airsprings mounted directly to the bogie frame, with a
lateral bolster connecting the spring caps to the steering beam. The
tilt
jacks were between the crossbeams at the end of the steering beams and
the
vehicle bodies.

On the H4X bogies the bolster itself tilted as the tilt jacks were
mounted
laterally between the bolster frame and the bogie. The air springs were
mounted on top of the bolster, between it and the body, and thus tilted
with the rest of the vehicle.

It's true that Hastings Diesels did own Hastings Coach (hereafter called
Lab 4 'cos it's shorter....) for some time, and it was indeed an
ex-Hastings line Buffet Car, but they have another one as well, or they
did have anyway. Lab 4 was a survivor from the Hither Green accident and
was surplus to requirements afterwards as there was only enough vehicles
left to make up one set.

As to its current situation, Hastings Diesels were going to scrap Lab 4,
but she was reprieved at the very last minute and was moved by road to
the
Walthamstow Pumphouse Museum where she still is. I'm pleased to say I'm
a
small shareholder in her, although they don't take much notice of
anything
I suggest there, sad to say. The H4Xs are as built, apart from solid
struts
having been fitted in place of the tilt jacks. After the APT project
:Lab 4
was modified to test an active secondary ride system and some of that is
still fitted. Sadly one of the instrumentation racks was moved into the
central VIP compartment, ruining it for its original purpose, although
some
of the plush seats are still there. I suggested that they repaint Lab 4
in
R&D Red/Blue on one side and their preferred Southern Green on the
other,
but they took no noticed and painted her green all over. There was an
intention to use Lab 4 as a buffet for the Museum, but I'm not sure if
they've managed that yet.

The Museum is currently closed but should re-open Easter time I think,
web
page at :- http://www.leavalleyexperience.co.uk/
<http://www.leavalleyexperience.co.uk/>

Regards
Kit



Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With respect to:

>Also this one but unfortunately they have sold out - however the

seller may re-list something similar in future (or possibly see a
copy >other than via ebay on request?)

>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/British-Rail-Departmental-Research-Vehicles-
>RTC_W0QQitemZ270331959416QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?h

ash=item270331959416


There appears to be another copy presently listed as item
270333050336 on eBay.

Vendor also appears to state in the listing that he will make the
item available upon request. (The 'fair' way this usually works on
eBay is that he will agree to a price, and let you know that he will
put up a copy at a "Buy It Now" price of the amount at a particular
time. When the item appears on eBay, you 'Buy It Now' and make
payment.)

Reading between the lines: It would seem that he can easily make up
larger copies of these prints if desired, or prepare special
collections containing just drawings of particular interest. I also
note that he has a catalog of about 1200 drawings (which he
apparently provides along with any order) and I confess to having a
bit of the kid-in-the-candy-store feeling about what might be in that
collection... ;-}


RME

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I also note that he has a catalog of about 1200 drawings (which he
>apparently provides along with any order) and I confess to having a
>bit of the kid-in-the-candy-store feeling about what might be in that
>collection... ;-}

Its worth pointing out that the accuracy of the drawings has been
questioned on other groups. For example this thread notes errors
on the APT drawings amongst others
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36760

Simon

Hi all,

I never trust any model drawing - any I have studied in detail all had mistakes. My preference is to get drawings from as many sources as possible and compare them with photographs. At the end of the day if it looks right it is right.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Bendall
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Trailer Car Question and Question about Hastings Lab 4


>I also note that he has a catalog of about 1200 drawings (which he
>apparently provides along with any order) and I confess to having a
>bit of the kid-in-the-candy-store feeling about what might be in that
>collection... ;-}

Its worth pointing out that the accuracy of the drawings has been
questioned on other groups. For example this thread notes errors
on the APT drawings amongst others
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36760

Simon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan is right. Often what was on the drawing was not what got built as
it was left to the men on the ground to interpret what was required and
this might have been at variance with what was drawn. Clearly there is
less of this with modern techniques and CAD but often rolling stock was
modified and drawings did not exist. Hence if the model drawings were
sourced from engineering originals, the may differ considerably from the
actual prototype.



Alan's approach is certainly one that I would support



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Coombe
Sent: 22 January 2009 11:23
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Trailer Car Question and Question about
Hastings Lab 4



Hi all,

I never trust any model drawing - any I have studied in detail all had
mistakes. My preference is to get drawings from as many sources as
possible and compare them with photographs. At the end of the day if it
looks right it is right.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Bendall
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Trailer Car Question and Question about
Hastings Lab 4

>I also note that he has a catalog of about 1200 drawings (which he
>apparently provides along with any order) and I confess to having a
>bit of the kid-in-the-candy-store feeling about what might be in that
>collection... ;-}

Its worth pointing out that the accuracy of the drawings has been
questioned on other groups. For example this thread notes errors
on the APT drawings amongst others
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36760
<http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36760>

Simon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
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as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Kit
 
Thanks for a very interesting response to Paul’s enquiry. Could I just double check one point though? You said “Only the VIP end windows are mirrored, as all of them on TC2, and the PC1 end windows are clear glass on both sides.” I just wondered because the BRR approach to other laboratory coaches with which I had any involvement had the instrumentation sections’ windows mirrored with that plastic film stuff in order to keep people from nosing in! Normal seating areas were left with normal two-way windows.
 
While on the subject, I wonder if you could answer three quick questions. Assuming that I understand it correctly that the VIP area was in TC1:-
1)      Was the VIP section 3 or 4 windows long?
2)      Was the VIP section at the PC2 end or the TC2 end?
3)      Was there a central partition with door to separate the VIP area or was TC1 open plan?
 
Another question of a different sort: Do you need any helpers with whatever you have planned for APT-E? I do not know much about its workings but I know a fair amount about structural stuff or I am happy just to get my hands dirty and help out generally!
 
Best wishes.
 David Round




________________________________
From: Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...>
To: APT Group <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 18:46:08
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Trailer Car Question and Question about Hastings Lab 4


Paul,

>He has asked of the sides of the train are identical but
>mirror images. As far as I can tell from the drawings I have this is the
>case apart from trailer car 1 where the plans seem to show different
>locations for the windows on each side for one half of the coach. Can
>anyone confirm this?<

As far as I can recall, and as far as my photos show, TC1 and TC2 are
mirror images left to right, but they are NOT mirrors end to end. This is
because of the aircon grilles that are only at one end of each vehicle.
They were marshalled the same way round, with the aircon grilles at the
same end, toward PC2. This also obtained when the train was in 3-car form
in the early days with only TC2 in the consist, ie it was marshalled aircon
grille at the PC2 end.

In fact it was impossible to marshall them any other way, as we know to our
cost now the train is at Shildon. Because the pin joints at each end are
gender sensitive it would not be possible to turn each coach the other way
round as we'd have two male pin-joints together and two female joints on
the other pair. That's exactly the situation we have at Shildon now, due to
a screw-up when the vehicles were unloaded and placed on the track. We're
still thinking how to solve that.

Re TC1, it does tend to look asymmetrical as half the windows are different
to the others. Only the VIP end windows are mirrored, as all of them on
TC2, and the PC1 end windows are clear glass on both sides. That's why you
can see the tilt pack cover of TC1 but not that of TC2. The centre pair of
windows of TC1 don't line up exactly with the interior trim and you can see
the trim framework through the window at the PC1 end. These were the worst
leaking windows when we started the re-build in 2000, and they've been
changed at least twice now, maybe three times. Paul Leadley will remember
for sure, as he did most of it! <g>

>This was published by Avon Anglia and principally concerns the P
>train. There are some good photos of he E train as a prelude and an
>interesting photo of the bogies (H4X) under lab 4. These seem to have a
>remarkable resemblance to the E1T bogies although suspension and tilt
>arrangements are different. Does anyone know anything about these? I
>think the photo has been published before as it is described as a
>publicity shot showing the effect of the tilt. I seem to recall Lab 4
>was acquired by Hastings diesels as it was the only surviving Hastings
>Buffet Unit and taken to St Leonard's where I presume it still is
>complete with bogies. I don't know what they intended to do with this
>coach - presumably convert it back to original condition - sacrilege! <

Firstlt, have no fear, Hastings still exists complete with both its H4X
bogies, see later on in this posting.

The H4X bogies used a modified design of the EIT bogie frame and similar,
but not identical axle boxes etc, but that's as far as it went. E1Ts had
their secondary airsprings mounted directly to the bogie frame, with a
lateral bolster connecting the spring caps to the steering beam. The tilt
jacks were between the crossbeams at the end of the steering beams and the
vehicle bodies.

On the H4X bogies the bolster itself tilted as the tilt jacks were mounted
laterally between the bolster frame and the bogie. The air springs were
mounted on top of the bolster, between it and the body, and thus tilted
with the rest of the vehicle.

It's true that Hastings Diesels did own Hastings Coach (hereafter called
Lab 4 'cos it's shorter....) for some time, and it was indeed an
ex-Hastings line Buffet Car, but they have another one as well, or they
did have anyway. Lab 4 was a survivor from the Hither Green accident and
was surplus to requirements afterwards as there was only enough vehicles
left to make up one set.

As to its current situation, Hastings Diesels were going to scrap Lab 4,
but she was reprieved at the very last minute and was moved by road to the
Walthamstow Pumphouse Museum where she still is. I'm pleased to say I'm a
small shareholder in her, although they don't take much notice of anything
I suggest there, sad to say. The H4Xs are as built, apart from solid struts
having been fitted in place of the tilt jacks. After the APT project :Lab 4
was modified to test an active secondary ride system and some of that is
still fitted. Sadly one of the instrumentation racks was moved into the
central VIP compartment, ruining it for its original purpose, although some
of the plush seats are still there. I suggested that they repaint Lab 4 in
R&D Red/Blue on one side and their preferred Southern Green on the other,
but they took no noticed and painted her green all over. There was an
intention to use Lab 4 as a buffet for the Museum, but I'm not sure if
they've managed that yet.

The Museum is currently closed but should re-open Easter time I think, web
page at :- http://www.leavalle yexperience. co.uk/

Regards
Kit





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kit



Please could I also add a sub question to David's? Was the non mirrored
glass smoked (as per the MK2 coaches at the time or plain?



Thanks



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Round
Sent: 22 January 2009 13:25
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: Trailer Car Question and Question about
Hastings Lab 4



Hi Kit

Thanks for a very interesting response to Paul's enquiry. Could I just
double check one point though? You said "Only the VIP end windows are
mirrored, as all of them on TC2, and the PC1 end windows are clear glass
on both sides." I just wondered because the BRR approach to other
laboratory coaches with which I had any involvement had the
instrumentation sections' windows mirrored with that plastic film stuff
in order to keep people from nosing in! Normal seating areas were left
with normal two-way windows.

While on the subject, I wonder if you could answer three quick
questions. Assuming that I understand it correctly that the VIP area was
in TC1:-
1) Was the VIP section 3 or 4 windows long?
2) Was the VIP section at the PC2 end or the TC2 end?
3) Was there a central partition with door to separate the VIP area
or was TC1 open plan?

Another question of a different sort: Do you need any helpers with
whatever you have planned for APT-E? I do not know much about its
workings but I know a fair amount about structural stuff or I am happy
just to get my hands dirty and help out generally!

Best wishes.
David Round

________________________________
From: Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...
<mailto:101453.3657%40compuserve.com> >
To: APT Group <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 18:46:08
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Trailer Car Question and Question about
Hastings Lab 4

Paul,

>He has asked of the sides of the train are identical but
>mirror images. As far as I can tell from the drawings I have this is

the

>case apart from trailer car 1 where the plans seem to show different
>locations for the windows on each side for one half of the coach. Can
>anyone confirm this?<

As far as I can recall, and as far as my photos show, TC1 and TC2 are
mirror images left to right, but they are NOT mirrors end to end. This
is
because of the aircon grilles that are only at one end of each vehicle.
They were marshalled the same way round, with the aircon grilles at the
same end, toward PC2. This also obtained when the train was in 3-car
form
in the early days with only TC2 in the consist, ie it was marshalled
aircon
grille at the PC2 end.

In fact it was impossible to marshall them any other way, as we know to
our
cost now the train is at Shildon. Because the pin joints at each end are
gender sensitive it would not be possible to turn each coach the other
way
round as we'd have two male pin-joints together and two female joints on
the other pair. That's exactly the situation we have at Shildon now, due
to
a screw-up when the vehicles were unloaded and placed on the track.
We're
still thinking how to solve that.

Re TC1, it does tend to look asymmetrical as half the windows are
different
to the others. Only the VIP end windows are mirrored, as all of them on
TC2, and the PC1 end windows are clear glass on both sides. That's why
you
can see the tilt pack cover of TC1 but not that of TC2. The centre pair
of
windows of TC1 don't line up exactly with the interior trim and you can
see
the trim framework through the window at the PC1 end. These were the
worst
leaking windows when we started the re-build in 2000, and they've been
changed at least twice now, maybe three times. Paul Leadley will
remember
for sure, as he did most of it! <g>

>This was published by Avon Anglia and principally concerns the P
>train. There are some good photos of he E train as a prelude and an
>interesting photo of the bogies (H4X) under lab 4. These seem to have a
>remarkable resemblance to the E1T bogies although suspension and tilt
>arrangements are different. Does anyone know anything about these? I
>think the photo has been published before as it is described as a
>publicity shot showing the effect of the tilt. I seem to recall Lab 4
>was acquired by Hastings diesels as it was the only surviving Hastings
>Buffet Unit and taken to St Leonard's where I presume it still is
>complete with bogies. I don't know what they intended to do with this
>coach - presumably convert it back to original condition - sacrilege! <

Firstlt, have no fear, Hastings still exists complete with both its H4X
bogies, see later on in this posting.

The H4X bogies used a modified design of the EIT bogie frame and
similar,
but not identical axle boxes etc, but that's as far as it went. E1Ts had
their secondary airsprings mounted directly to the bogie frame, with a
lateral bolster connecting the spring caps to the steering beam. The
tilt
jacks were between the crossbeams at the end of the steering beams and
the
vehicle bodies.

On the H4X bogies the bolster itself tilted as the tilt jacks were
mounted
laterally between the bolster frame and the bogie. The air springs were
mounted on top of the bolster, between it and the body, and thus tilted
with the rest of the vehicle.

It's true that Hastings Diesels did own Hastings Coach (hereafter called
Lab 4 'cos it's shorter....) for some time, and it was indeed an
ex-Hastings line Buffet Car, but they have another one as well, or they
did have anyway. Lab 4 was a survivor from the Hither Green accident and
was surplus to requirements afterwards as there was only enough vehicles
left to make up one set.

As to its current situation, Hastings Diesels were going to scrap Lab 4,
but she was reprieved at the very last minute and was moved by road to
the
Walthamstow Pumphouse Museum where she still is. I'm pleased to say I'm
a
small shareholder in her, although they don't take much notice of
anything
I suggest there, sad to say. The H4Xs are as built, apart from solid
struts
having been fitted in place of the tilt jacks. After the APT project
:Lab 4
was modified to test an active secondary ride system and some of that is
still fitted. Sadly one of the instrumentation racks was moved into the
central VIP compartment, ruining it for its original purpose, although
some
of the plush seats are still there. I suggested that they repaint Lab 4
in
R&D Red/Blue on one side and their preferred Southern Green on the
other,
but they took no noticed and painted her green all over. There was an
intention to use Lab 4 as a buffet for the Museum, but I'm not sure if
they've managed that yet.

The Museum is currently closed but should re-open Easter time I think,
web
page at :- http://www.leavalle yexperience. co.uk/

Regards
Kit


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Blimey, that one question set off an avalanche. <g>

David,

>Could I just double check one point though? You said 'Only the VIP end

windows are mirrored, as all of them on TC2, and the PC1 end windows are
clear glass on >both sides.' I just wondered because the BRR approach to
other laboratory coaches with which I had any involvement had the
instrumentation sections windows >mirrored with that plastic film stuff in
order to keep people from nosing in! Normal seating areas were left with
normal two-way windows.<

That's what I meant by 'mirrored'. TC2 had that plastic film on the inside
of all its windows and TC1 only had it applied to the VIP compartment
windows. Nowadays TC1 has clear glass all the way along (I think, Paul
Leadley could confirm that though I reckon) as we had to replace almost all
of them while the train was at York, and at the time there was no chance to
apply the film. I believe the intention of the film for the VIP compartment
was to cut down on the solar heating effect, with the sloped sides.
 

>While on the subject, I wonder if you could answer three quick questions.

Assuming that I understand it correctly that the VIP area was in TC1:-

>1)      Was the VIP section 3 or 4 windows long?<

4 windows, it was half the coach length. But because of the interior trim
only about half the window at each end of the compartment was able to be
used, from the inside. Of course from the outside it was impossible to see
that when the train was in 'service'. On the APT-E web site there's a photo
of mine, taken in the early morning at Uffington Loop, where you can see
this effect clearly as the interior lights show the window frames and trim
quite clearly.

>2)      Was the VIP section at the PC2 end or the TC2 end?<

That's the same question <g> I think you meant the PC1 end. It was toward
TC2, which in turn was behind PC2. The VIP compartment was as near the
centre of the train as was possible.

>3)      Was there a central partition with door to separate the VIP area

or was TC1 open plan?<

A VERY substantial central partition, with two doors even, so that it
formed an air-lock almost. The doors are not centralised and trying to get
the seats through them was almost impossible when we stripped out TC1 at
York. The partition is still there, together with both doors, and a
speedometer mounted alongside the door, but no speedo needle.
 

>Another question of a different sort: Do you need any helpers with

whatever you have planned for APT-E? I do not know much about its workings
but I know a fair >amount about structural stuff or I am happy just to get
my hands dirty and help out generally!<

In theory we need all the help we can get, but in practice we can't do a
thing just now, thanks to the obduracy of the NRM. While there are now
workshop facilities at Shildon there are no staff to 'oversee' us at the
weekends, and that of course is the time when volunteers are available. Far
be it for me to suggest anything about 'conspiracy theories'' of
course..........

Paul,

>Please could I also add a sub question to David's? Was the non mirrored
>glass smoked (as per the MK2 coaches at the time or plain?<

Plain as I recall. Certainly the ones we have spare now are plain, and I'm
not sure I've ever seen any smoked ones. The E-Train windows weren't the
same size at any standard BR windows AFAIK, they were true 'specials'.

Regards
Kit

Hi All,
Myself and Kit have just had a reply from the NRM, it reads : -

Hello Paul,

I am sorry that you had trouble reaching me, and that I have been
slow in responding.

I had become aware that this vehicle might still exist only recently
and your e-mail of course confirmed it.

I have discussed the possibilty of collection with collegues to find
that the idea of collection had already been discussed previously by
the Collections Development Group, and the decision taken that it
would not be collected. This was mainly on the grounds that we are
unable to house or care for the vehicle, and that even with the
Shildon development we are still far from housing all the vehicle
collections and have some way to go in further disposals before the
collections become sustainable.

I am sorry that you and Kit will obviously find this dissappionting
and hope that you will still be able to progress work on the APT-E at
Shildon.

Sincerely, Jim.

Jim Rees
Curator Rail Vehicles
NRM

The reply only came because of the email/letter I sent Andrew Scott
last week.

Maybe if we place a boiler on HSFV1 they would take it into the
national collection. My patience with the NRM (Steam boys) is just
about exhausted.................................

Anyone got a big garden with some track, LOL!

Regards

Paul

Hi Kit
 
Thanks for such a full answer. That was really useful. I hope I am not being too boring but could you clarify something: Do I assume from your correction of my numbering that the normal formation was PC2-TC2-TC1-PC1. If so my confusion had come about because I saw a photo of APTE in York NRM yard with TC1 coupled to PC2. Also the Andy Arthur diagram on the APT-E website has TC1 coupled to PC2.
 
Best wishes
 
David Round




________________________________
From: Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...>
To: APT Group <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 17:14:55
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Trailer Car Question and Question about Hastings Lab 4


Blimey, that one question set off an avalanche. <g>

David,

>Could I just double check one point though? You said 'Only the VIP end

windows are mirrored, as all of them on TC2, and the PC1 end windows are
clear glass on >both sides.' I just wondered because the BRR approach to
other laboratory coaches with which I had any involvement had the
instrumentation sections windows >mirrored with that plastic film stuff in
order to keep people from nosing in! Normal seating areas were left with
normal two-way windows.<

That's what I meant by 'mirrored'. TC2 had that plastic film on the inside
of all its windows and TC1 only had it applied to the VIP compartment
windows. Nowadays TC1 has clear glass all the way along (I think, Paul
Leadley could confirm that though I reckon) as we had to replace almost all
of them while the train was at York, and at the time there was no chance to
apply the film. I believe the intention of the film for the VIP compartment
was to cut down on the solar heating effect, with the sloped sides.
 

>While on the subject, I wonder if you could answer three quick questions.

Assuming that I understand it correctly that the VIP area was in TC1:-

>1)      Was the VIP section 3 or 4 windows long?<

4 windows, it was half the coach length. But because of the interior trim
only about half the window at each end of the compartment was able to be
used, from the inside. Of course from the outside it was impossible to see
that when the train was in 'service'. On the APT-E web site there's a photo
of mine, taken in the early morning at Uffington Loop, where you can see
this effect clearly as the interior lights show the window frames and trim
quite clearly.

>2)      Was the VIP section at the PC2 end or the TC2 end?<

That's the same question <g> I think you meant the PC1 end. It was toward
TC2, which in turn was behind PC2. The VIP compartment was as near the
centre of the train as was possible.

>3)      Was there a central partition with door to separate the VIP area

or was TC1 open plan?<

A VERY substantial central partition, with two doors even, so that it
formed an air-lock almost. The doors are not centralised and trying to get
the seats through them was almost impossible when we stripped out TC1 at
York. The partition is still there, together with both doors, and a
speedometer mounted alongside the door, but no speedo needle.
 

>Another question of a different sort: Do you need any helpers with

whatever you have planned for APT-E? I do not know much about its workings
but I know a fair >amount about structural stuff or I am happy just to get
my hands dirty and help out generally!<

In theory we need all the help we can get, but in practice we can't do a
thing just now, thanks to the obduracy of the NRM. While there are now
workshop facilities at Shildon there are no staff to 'oversee' us at the
weekends, and that of course is the time when volunteers are available. Far
be it for me to suggest anything about 'conspiracy theories'' of
course...... ....

Paul,

>Please could I also add a sub question to David's? Was the non mirrored
>glass smoked (as per the MK2 coaches at the time or plain?<

Plain as I recall. Certainly the ones we have spare now are plain, and I'm
not sure I've ever seen any smoked ones. The E-Train windows weren't the
same size at any standard BR windows AFAIK, they were true 'specials'.

Regards
Kit





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul and Kit
 
Maybe it is time to rattle some cages. Who is Number 1 at the NRM? Which government body do they report too? Maybe it is time for a brief but learned discourse to be sent to the relevant person on the lack of vision, lack of technical understanding, and lack of support at the NRM.  You probably need to maintain a good working relationship with the NRM but I do not! I am happy to write something if you would support it when the fan starts whirring! What do you think?
 
Best wishes
 
David Round



________________________________
From: Paul Leadley <PAUL@...>
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 17:34:57
Subject: <APT Group> HSFV1 and the NRM, or not!!! ITS NOT STEAM!


Hi All,
Myself and Kit have just had a reply from the NRM, it reads : -

Hello Paul,

I am sorry that you had trouble reaching me, and that I have been
slow in responding.

I had become aware that this vehicle might still exist only recently
and your e-mail of course confirmed it.

I have discussed the possibilty of collection with collegues to find
that the idea of collection had already been discussed previously by
the Collections Development Group, and the decision taken that it
would not be collected. This was mainly on the grounds that we are
unable to house or care for the vehicle, and that even with the
Shildon development we are still far from housing all the vehicle
collections and have some way to go in further disposals before the
collections become sustainable.

I am sorry that you and Kit will obviously find this dissappionting
and hope that you will still be able to progress work on the APT-E at
Shildon.

Sincerely, Jim.

Jim Rees
Curator Rail Vehicles
NRM

The reply only came because of the email/letter I sent Andrew Scott
last week.

Maybe if we place a boiler on HSFV1 they would take it into the
national collection. My patience with the NRM (Steam boys) is just
about exhausted... ......... ......... ......... ...

Anyone got a big garden with some track, LOL!

Regards

Paul






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi, does anyone know where i can find any info on the Apt-S, just curious.

-------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:34 PM

> My patience with the NRM (Steam boys) is just
> about exhausted.................................
>
> Anyone got a big garden with some track, LOL!
>

Well, let's think about that.

If you could choose, where would you like the garden to be?

The Design & Development team were all based at Derby at one time, but I
don't know where the winds have scattered the key players.

It's just that last weekend I stumbled over an old marshalling yard full of
diesel shunters. A geezer popped out with a paint brush in one hand and
begging bowl in the other. I didn't check for spare capacity at that
particular site, but the principle could be useful.

David 1/2d

There is some information in the book APT - A promise Unfulfilled and I
believe there was a Modern Railways article about the development of
APT-P that covered the topic. As the train never existed, other than on
paper details are sketchy to say the least



regards



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
bendownpls
Sent: 22 January 2009 21:43
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Apt-S



hi, does anyone know where i can find any info on the Apt-S, just
curious.



Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
amdZYClRsc9CfHdvR4cNu5+F8PTtog5X2XhPbv5+FCDqIw==> to report this email
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

This morning received my copy of the APT drawings advertised on ebay - nice prompt service.

Unfortunately the APT-E drawings are in my opinion the worst I have ever seen. I believe most if not all of the dimensions listed are at variance with those that Kit and others have supplied me with.

Should have known because the PC at 75'6" long will not go on an A4 page in 4mm scale.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan



It will be interesting to compare these with the engineering drawings I
have. As these came from the draughtsman's originals, they should be
correct!



regards



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Coombe
Sent: 23 January 2009 11:22
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re:APT-E drawings



Hi all,

This morning received my copy of the APT drawings advertised on ebay -
nice prompt service.

Unfortunately the APT-E drawings are in my opinion the worst I have ever
seen. I believe most if not all of the dimensions listed are at variance
with those that Kit and others have supplied me with.

Should have known because the PC at 75'6" long will not go on an A4 page
in 4mm scale.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
yh2+ioq2jSjuCYkXmE0Q1AUs86QdXRX8PIgeaPLWGci2!g==> to report this email
as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
(Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)





View our disclaimer at:
http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Alan

I am not able to answer your questions entirely but from my own
researches, this is my understanding:

> a) Do the TCs look the same from each side?

As viewed, the TCs appear to be identical both sides. They are also
symmetrical about a vertical centre line except for the air-
conditioning grill and number at the right hand end.

> b) Are the sides of the PCs mirror images?

No! The PCs appear to be identical to each other but they are not the
same on both sides. The waist line grills added at different times in
its early life are different The rear-most one is under the
last `blue' grill on the right-hand side (as the driver would sit)
but under the last of the first block of `blue' grills on the left-
hand side. I do not have any dimensions: It is something for my next
trip to Shildon. The under-floor grills are completely different.
There are, I think, several more on the left-hand side; again
something for my next trip.

> c) Are the bogies the same from each side or mirror images?

As viewed from the outside, and leaving out the instrumentation and
the sanding equipment, the bogies are the same on both sides. That is
the traction arm points forwards on one side but backwards on the
other.

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes

David Round




--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe"
<alan@...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> Paul, there are potentially going to be two G1 models of APT-E. One

by David R and one by myself. Our concepts are somewhat different,
mine very much KISS whereas David will be pushing the envelope with
his. We are even using different scales, he 1/32 and me 10 mm:ft
which is 5% larger. On mine I intend to make the degree of tilt
proportional to both speed and curvature. The curvature function will
be by mechanical coupling to the shared bogies 2 and 4. The speed
function will be derived from the motor speed control signal which
will drive four servos connected to the coach pivot points. The pivot
points will be moved to change the degree of tilt. Four ladder frames
made from 10mm steel box section will be supported on the bogies.
Light weight bodies will be able to swing on bearings attached to the
frames.

>
> As for drawings, I am waiting on Kit to finish cleaning up the

drawing he has - reckoned to be very accurate. David R and myself
have been exchanging ideas and I would be happy to do the same with
you Paul.

>
> Some questions:
>
> a) Do the TCs look the same from each side?
>
> b) Are the sides of the PCs mirror images?
>
> c) Are the bogies the same from each side or mirror images?
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi David,
The relationship between the NRM and E train group has always been
frosty to say the least. We have always said what we mean when it
comes to the staff of the NRM. Richards Gibbon was the best of the
bunch, and did help out a lot, so very great thanks to him.

The head of the NRM is Andrew Scott, and the NRM itself is part of
the Science Museum, so they have the final word. Im not sure who is
the boss there.

There are items in the NRM collection which have little or no
importance, as in most cases, plent already exist. This of course
cannot be said for HSFV1. Without this, no HST, no Class 91 no high
speed trains that could run safely over 100 mph. Its crazy to think
the NRM just dont see the importance of this vehichle.

Id love to kick some butt! Im up for it for sure....

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group
--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, David Round
<david007round@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Paul and Kit
>  
> Maybe it is time to rattle some cages. Who is Number 1 at the NRM?

Which government body do they report too? Maybe it is time for a
brief but learned discourse to be sent to the relevant person on the
lack of vision, lack of technical understanding, and lack of support
at the NRM.  You probably need to maintain a good working
relationship with the NRM but I do not! I am happy to write something
if you would support it when the fan starts whirring! What do you
think?

>  
> Best wishes
>  
> David Round
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Leadley <PAUL@...>
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 17:34:57
> Subject: <APT Group> HSFV1 and the NRM, or not!!! ITS NOT STEAM!
>
>
> Hi All,
> Myself and Kit have just had a reply from the NRM, it reads : -
>
> Hello Paul,
>
> I am sorry that you had trouble reaching me, and that I have been
> slow in responding.
>
> I had become aware that this vehicle might still exist only

recently

> and your e-mail of course confirmed it.
>
> I have discussed the possibilty of collection with collegues to

find

> that the idea of collection had already been discussed previously

by

> the Collections Development Group, and the decision taken that it
> would not be collected. This was mainly on the grounds that we are
> unable to house or care for the vehicle, and that even with the
> Shildon development we are still far from housing all the vehicle
> collections and have some way to go in further disposals before the
> collections become sustainable.
>
> I am sorry that you and Kit will obviously find this dissappionting
> and hope that you will still be able to progress work on the APT-E

at

> Shildon.
>
> Sincerely, Jim.
>
> Jim Rees
> Curator Rail Vehicles
> NRM
>
> The reply only came because of the email/letter I sent Andrew Scott
> last week.
>
> Maybe if we place a boiler on HSFV1 they would take it into the
> national collection. My patience with the NRM (Steam boys) is just
> about exhausted... ......... ......... ......... ...
>
> Anyone got a big garden with some track, LOL!
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Paul,

I hope your drawings look nothing like the ones I bought - intend sending them back and getting a refund.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rowlinson
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: <APT Group> Re:APT-E drawings


Alan

It will be interesting to compare these with the engineering drawings I
have. As these came from the draughtsman's originals, they should be
correct!

regards

Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF

Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807

Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group

paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Coombe
Sent: 23 January 2009 11:22
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re:APT-E drawings

Hi all,

This morning received my copy of the APT drawings advertised on ebay -
nice prompt service.

Unfortunately the APT-E drawings are in my opinion the worst I have ever
seen. I believe most if not all of the dimensions listed are at variance
with those that Kit and others have supplied me with.

Should have known because the PC at 75'6" long will not go on an A4 page
in 4mm scale.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
yh2+ioq2jSjuCYkXmE0Q1AUs86QdXRX8PIgeaPLWGci2!g==> to report this email
as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
(Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)

View our disclaimer at:
http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

Thanks for the reply David.

Bit confused though.

From photos where I could clearly see the side grill on the TCs, they always appeared to be on the right hand side as you look square on. This indicated to me that there was an aircon unit at each end of the TC and the grills were on the diagonal as you look down in plan view. In this case the sides would not be mirror images which I believe is what David is saying.

However, as I understand it, Kit wrote that the aircon grills were both at the same end of the TC. This of course would make the sides of each individual TC mirror images.

Am I missing a trick here? Can someone unconfuse me?

Yours,

Alan Coombe

----- Original Message -----
From: david007round
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:37 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: APT-E models


Hi Alan

I am not able to answer your questions entirely but from my own
researches, this is my understanding:

> a) Do the TCs look the same from each side?

As viewed, the TCs appear to be identical both sides. They are also
symmetrical about a vertical centre line except for the air-
conditioning grill and number at the right hand end.

> b) Are the sides of the PCs mirror images?

No! The PCs appear to be identical to each other but they are not the
same on both sides. The waist line grills added at different times in
its early life are different The rear-most one is under the
last `blue' grill on the right-hand side (as the driver would sit)
but under the last of the first block of `blue' grills on the left-
hand side. I do not have any dimensions: It is something for my next
trip to Shildon. The under-floor grills are completely different.
There are, I think, several more on the left-hand side; again
something for my next trip.

> c) Are the bogies the same from each side or mirror images?

As viewed from the outside, and leaving out the instrumentation and
the sanding equipment, the bogies are the same on both sides. That is
the traction arm points forwards on one side but backwards on the
other.

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes

David Round

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe"
<alan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Paul, there are potentially going to be two G1 models of APT-E. One
by David R and one by myself. Our concepts are somewhat different,
mine very much KISS whereas David will be pushing the envelope with
his. We are even using different scales, he 1/32 and me 10 mm:ft
which is 5% larger. On mine I intend to make the degree of tilt
proportional to both speed and curvature. The curvature function will
be by mechanical coupling to the shared bogies 2 and 4. The speed
function will be derived from the motor speed control signal which
will drive four servos connected to the coach pivot points. The pivot
points will be moved to change the degree of tilt. Four ladder frames
made from 10mm steel box section will be supported on the bogies.
Light weight bodies will be able to swing on bearings attached to the
frames.
>
> As for drawings, I am waiting on Kit to finish cleaning up the
drawing he has - reckoned to be very accurate. David R and myself
have been exchanging ideas and I would be happy to do the same with
you Paul.
>
> Some questions:
>
> a) Do the TCs look the same from each side?
>
> b) Are the sides of the PCs mirror images?
>
> c) Are the bogies the same from each side or mirror images?
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi guys,
Look at the hundreds of photos of E train on the E train site. If
you cannot see it on there, then it doesnt exists.

The workdays section is myabe the best.

Regards

Paul L

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe"
<alan@...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the reply David.
>
> Bit confused though.
>
> From photos where I could clearly see the side grill on the TCs,

they always appeared to be on the right hand side as you look square
on. This indicated to me that there was an aircon unit at each end of
the TC and the grills were on the diagonal as you look down in plan
view. In this case the sides would not be mirror images which I
believe is what David is saying.

>
> However, as I understand it, Kit wrote that the aircon grills were

both at the same end of the TC. This of course would make the sides
of each individual TC mirror images.

>
> Am I missing a trick here? Can someone unconfuse me?
>
> Yours,
>
> Alan Coombe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: david007round
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:37 PM
> Subject: <APT Group> Re: APT-E models
>
>
> Hi Alan
>
> I am not able to answer your questions entirely but from my own
> researches, this is my understanding:
>
> > a) Do the TCs look the same from each side?
>
> As viewed, the TCs appear to be identical both sides. They are

also

> symmetrical about a vertical centre line except for the air-
> conditioning grill and number at the right hand end.
>
> > b) Are the sides of the PCs mirror images?
>
> No! The PCs appear to be identical to each other but they are not

the

> same on both sides. The waist line grills added at different

times in

> its early life are different The rear-most one is under the
> last `blue' grill on the right-hand side (as the driver would

sit)

> but under the last of the first block of `blue' grills on the

left-

> hand side. I do not have any dimensions: It is something for my

next

> trip to Shildon. The under-floor grills are completely different.
> There are, I think, several more on the left-hand side; again
> something for my next trip.
>
> > c) Are the bogies the same from each side or mirror images?
>
> As viewed from the outside, and leaving out the instrumentation

and

> the sanding equipment, the bogies are the same on both sides.

That is

> the traction arm points forwards on one side but backwards on the
> other.
>
> I hope this is helpful.
>
> Best wishes
>
> David Round
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Coombe"
> <alan@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Paul, there are potentially going to be two G1 models of APT-E.

One

> by David R and one by myself. Our concepts are somewhat

different,

> mine very much KISS whereas David will be pushing the envelope

with

> his. We are even using different scales, he 1/32 and me 10 mm:ft
> which is 5% larger. On mine I intend to make the degree of tilt
> proportional to both speed and curvature. The curvature function

will

> be by mechanical coupling to the shared bogies 2 and 4. The speed
> function will be derived from the motor speed control signal

which

> will drive four servos connected to the coach pivot points. The

pivot

> points will be moved to change the degree of tilt. Four ladder

frames

> made from 10mm steel box section will be supported on the bogies.
> Light weight bodies will be able to swing on bearings attached to

the

> frames.
> >
> > As for drawings, I am waiting on Kit to finish cleaning up the
> drawing he has - reckoned to be very accurate. David R and myself
> have been exchanging ideas and I would be happy to do the same

with

> you Paul.
> >
> > Some questions:
> >
> > a) Do the TCs look the same from each side?
> >
> > b) Are the sides of the PCs mirror images?
> >
> > c) Are the bogies the same from each side or mirror images?
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Alan Coombe
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Alan et al,

>From photos where I could clearly see the side grill on the TCs, they

always appeared to be on the right hand side as you look square on. This
indicated to me that >there >was an aircon unit at each end of the TC and
the grills were on the diagonal as you look down in plan view. In this case
the sides would not be mirror images >which I >believe is what David is
saying.

>However, as I understand it, Kit wrote that the aircon grills were both at

the same end of the TC. This of course would make the sides of each
individual TC mirror images.<

Being 200+ miles away from E-Train is a bit of a pain, so I've been digging
through my photos to try and clear this up. You need to know which side of
the train you are looking at of course, and that's almost impossible unless
you can see the difference in the TC1 and TC2 windows, or you can see the
numbers on the side of the vehicles, which is even more impossible!

It's not helped by the fact that most photos of E-Train were taken from the
same side, that is the South side of the train when it was parked at the
RTC. Because of the way the P&C work was laid on the way to the Test Track,
and the layout of the MR and WR main lines this meant the same side of the
train was photographed much more often than the North side (at the RTC)
Because of this PC2 was to the right side in the majority of photos.

So I've just spent a long time ploughing through my original photos, and
I've found a few, v ery few, taken from the 'other' side, and one of them,
taken on the first run b y Trevor Easton, was within minutes of another
official BR photo taken of the other side. As a result of this search I'd
have to say there is an aircon grille on BOTH right and left hand sides of
the trailer cars, and both are to the right hand end of the vehicle. So the
car sides are similar and the cars themselves are similar too. This makes
some sense as only one set of drawings would have to be made for the
vehicle side panels. As far as I can recall there was only one aircon set
per vehicle though, so the other end grille was effectively a dummy.

We'll be able to confirm this for sure next time anyone goes to Shildon of
course, assuming the NRM staff there would let any of us do anything as
dangerous as walk down between APT-E and the Deltic
prototype................

Re the PC grilles, there were two major changes in the configuration, the
first for the initial run and the second after Rebuild 1. There were many
other changes as time went on though, grilles being enlarged and new ones
cut as we solved the various overheating problems. You need to know the
date a photo was taken to be sure what the condition was at the time, and
that's not easy to work out unless it was taken on a particular occasion
which can be dated. In general terms if the photo shows square shaped
grilles above the 'hip line' of the train it was taken after Rebuild 1, as
those grilles were added alongside each turbine at the time the heat
exchangers were removed.

Regards
Kit

Hi all,

Many thanks for your reply Kit. Getting closer to where I will be happy to cut metal.

Yours,

Alan Coombe

----- Original Message -----
From: Kit Spackman
To: APT Group
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 2:28 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: APT-E models


Alan et al,

>From photos where I could clearly see the side grill on the TCs, they
always appeared to be on the right hand side as you look square on. This
indicated to me that >there >was an aircon unit at each end of the TC and
the grills were on the diagonal as you look down in plan view. In this case
the sides would not be mirror images >which I >believe is what David is
saying.

>However, as I understand it, Kit wrote that the aircon grills were both at
the same end of the TC. This of course would make the sides of each
individual TC mirror images.<

Being 200+ miles away from E-Train is a bit of a pain, so I've been digging
through my photos to try and clear this up. You need to know which side of
the train you are looking at of course, and that's almost impossible unless
you can see the difference in the TC1 and TC2 windows, or you can see the
numbers on the side of the vehicles, which is even more impossible!

It's not helped by the fact that most photos of E-Train were taken from the
same side, that is the South side of the train when it was parked at the
RTC. Because of the way the P&C work was laid on the way to the Test Track,
and the layout of the MR and WR main lines this meant the same side of the
train was photographed much more often than the North side (at the RTC)
Because of this PC2 was to the right side in the majority of photos.

So I've just spent a long time ploughing through my original photos, and
I've found a few, v ery few, taken from the 'other' side, and one of them,
taken on the first run b y Trevor Easton, was within minutes of another
official BR photo taken of the other side. As a result of this search I'd
have to say there is an aircon grille on BOTH right and left hand sides of
the trailer cars, and both are to the right hand end of the vehicle. So the
car sides are similar and the cars themselves are similar too. This makes
some sense as only one set of drawings would have to be made for the
vehicle side panels. As far as I can recall there was only one aircon set
per vehicle though, so the other end grille was effectively a dummy.

We'll be able to confirm this for sure next time anyone goes to Shildon of
course, assuming the NRM staff there would let any of us do anything as
dangerous as walk down between APT-E and the Deltic
prototype................

Re the PC grilles, there were two major changes in the configuration, the
first for the initial run and the second after Rebuild 1. There were many
other changes as time went on though, grilles being enlarged and new ones
cut as we solved the various overheating problems. You need to know the
date a photo was taken to be sure what the condition was at the time, and
that's not easy to work out unless it was taken on a particular occasion
which can be dated. In general terms if the photo shows square shaped
grilles above the 'hip line' of the train it was taken after Rebuild 1, as
those grilles were added alongside each turbine at the time the heat
exchangers were removed.

Regards
Kit




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All

the next issue of Modern Locomotives Illustrated, out on sale 27 March
2009 will feature APT-E & APT-P (unfortunatly it shares this issue with
the Blue Pullman)

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Right - as I work at a fairly senior level in the Civil Service I thought I would shed a bit of
light on a possible way forward. The Department for Culture Media and Sport would
exercise some oversight of the Science Museum - it must in some way approve funding
levels etc agreed between the Museum and the Treasury and agree to its business
strategy/model (if you can call it that!). My suggestion would be to arrange an
appointment with your local MP and ask him/her to write to the Secretary of State for
CM&S about this. It would help if we could identify a like minded MP that takes a personal
interest in Modern Railways.

Paul is right, both HSVF and the APT-P made a huge contribution to modern high speed
rail travel and it is very disappointing that the NRM fail to strike the right balance in telling
the story of the development of the railways. Unfortunately I work in another Government
department so can't really influence things....

Any takers?

Simon

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@...> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
> The relationship between the NRM and E train group has always been
> frosty to say the least. We have always said what we mean when it
> comes to the staff of the NRM. Richards Gibbon was the best of the
> bunch, and did help out a lot, so very great thanks to him.
>
> The head of the NRM is Andrew Scott, and the NRM itself is part of
> the Science Museum, so they have the final word. Im not sure who is
> the boss there.
>
> There are items in the NRM collection which have little or no
> importance, as in most cases, plent already exist. This of course
> cannot be said for HSFV1. Without this, no HST, no Class 91 no high
> speed trains that could run safely over 100 mph. Its crazy to think
> the NRM just dont see the importance of this vehichle.
>
> Id love to kick some butt! Im up for it for sure....
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, David Round
> <david007round@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Paul and Kit
> >  
> > Maybe it is time to rattle some cages. Who is Number 1 at the NRM?
> Which government body do they report too? Maybe it is time for a
> brief but learned discourse to be sent to the relevant person on the
> lack of vision, lack of technical understanding, and lack of support
> at the NRM.  You probably need to maintain a good working
> relationship with the NRM but I do not! I am happy to write something
> if you would support it when the fan starts whirring! What do you
> think?
> >  
> > Best wishes
> >  
> > David Round
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Paul Leadley <PAUL@>
> > To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 17:34:57
> > Subject: <APT Group> HSFV1 and the NRM, or not!!! ITS NOT STEAM!
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> > Myself and Kit have just had a reply from the NRM, it reads : -
> >
> > Hello Paul,
> >
> > I am sorry that you had trouble reaching me, and that I have been
> > slow in responding.
> >
> > I had become aware that this vehicle might still exist only
> recently
> > and your e-mail of course confirmed it.
> >
> > I have discussed the possibilty of collection with collegues to
> find
> > that the idea of collection had already been discussed previously
> by
> > the Collections Development Group, and the decision taken that it
> > would not be collected. This was mainly on the grounds that we are
> > unable to house or care for the vehicle, and that even with the
> > Shildon development we are still far from housing all the vehicle
> > collections and have some way to go in further disposals before the
> > collections become sustainable.
> >
> > I am sorry that you and Kit will obviously find this dissappionting
> > and hope that you will still be able to progress work on the APT-E
> at
> > Shildon.
> >
> > Sincerely, Jim.
> >
> > Jim Rees
> > Curator Rail Vehicles
> > NRM
> >
> > The reply only came because of the email/letter I sent Andrew Scott
> > last week.
> >
> > Maybe if we place a boiler on HSFV1 they would take it into the
> > national collection. My patience with the NRM (Steam boys) is just
> > about exhausted... ......... ......... ......... ...
> >
> > Anyone got a big garden with some track, LOL!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

APT-P model on eBay -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170305657783

This is being sold by new owners of the company who made them and is in
mint condition !

Happy Bidding !


Rob
www.apt-p.com

...on ebay.co.uk, item # 160320300244

Modern Locomotives Illustrated Issue 176, out on sale 27 March 2009, will feature APT-E & APT-P

APT-E Design & Build
APT-E Main Line Tests
APT-E Cab Equipment
APT-E Technical Data & Detail
APT-E Fleet List
APT Project Support Vehicles
APT-E Design Options
Class 370 Design & Build
Class 370 Testing....Testing....
Class 370 Into Service
APT On the Road
Class 370 Interior Design
Class 370 Cab and Equipment
Class 370 Fleet List
APT for the Modeller

http://www.modern-locoillustrated.com/


Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Rob,

Thanks for the heads-up, sounds interesting.

I wonder how accurate it will be as it doesn't look as if they talked to
any of us............ <g>

Regards
Kit

well having read this id love to know were they got all there information from because it seems suprisingly accurate and has some exellent photos and facts. both of apt-e and apt-p.
it also has info on what happend to the other test rigs like hastings. its a good read and worth getting

----- Original Message -----
From: Kit Spackman
To: APT Group
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: MLI


Rob,

Thanks for the heads-up, sounds interesting.

I wonder how accurate it will be as it doesn't look as if they talked to
any of us............ <g>

Regards
Kit




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If its been written by Colin Marsden he may have access to other
material. He wrote two books on the Research Centre. One a Modern
Railways Special and the other called 25 years of Railway research by
OPC. If I recall both books came out at about the same time. He also
edited the Modern Railways Pictorial Profile series which ran to 12
issues commencing in 1983. There was one on High Speed Trains - mostly
the HST but including reference to APT and one on Blue Pullmans. These
were nothing more than glorified magazines and had very few pages but
they seem well enough written. He may have written other books too



regards



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t.sage
Sent: 20 October 2006 21:35
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: MLI



well having read this id love to know were they got all there
information from because it seems suprisingly accurate and has some
exellent photos and facts. both of apt-e and apt-p.
it also has info on what happend to the other test rigs like hastings.
its a good read and worth getting

----- Original Message -----
From: Kit Spackman
To: APT Group
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: MLI

Rob,

Thanks for the heads-up, sounds interesting.

I wonder how accurate it will be as it doesn't look as if they talked to
any of us............ <g>

Regards
Kit

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
53quD9I8nupw!PAmbOEPlzxin1sXaD2bKN1TQ40Is2HDWw==> to report this email
as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
(Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)





Sanctuary Group
Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700

View our disclaimer at: http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That sounds promising, I must see if I can find one in the various WH
Smiths that I frequent.

Are we saying that it has been written by Colin Marsden or is that an
assumption? If it is him it should be fine, he seemed to have an 'in' at
the RTC that few other writers had and his photos and text were rarely
inaccurate.

I think that series of 12 magazine-like publications, the British Rail
Fleet Survery, published by Ian Allan, was written my the late Brian
Haresnape, apart from the last few that were done by Alec Swain. That is
unless there was another similar series I'm confusing these with.

Regards
Kit

Kit



Yes the two publications were different. The fleet surveys covered a
type of traction such as 2nd generation DMU's whereas the MRP Profiles
were focusing on a particular class. I think MLI seeks to replicate
these but availability is distinctly poor as far as I can see. I know
they sell them in the Ian Allan bookshops and you can get them by post
from their web site



regard



Paul Rowlinson

Head of Operations, London

Sanctuary Management Services

Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,

London, N1 9NF



Tel: 0207 812 0022

Mob: 07787 834807



Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group



paul.rowlinson@...
<mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>

________________________________

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kit
Spackman
Sent: 29 March 2009 13:35
To: APT Group
Subject: <APT Group> Re: MLI



That sounds promising, I must see if I can find one in the various WH
Smiths that I frequent.

Are we saying that it has been written by Colin Marsden or is that an
assumption? If it is him it should be fine, he seemed to have an 'in' at
the RTC that few other writers had and his photos and text were rarely
inaccurate.

I think that series of 12 magazine-like publications, the British Rail
Fleet Survery, published by Ian Allan, was written my the late Brian
Haresnape, apart from the last few that were done by Alec Swain. That is
unless there was another similar series I'm confusing these with.

Regards
Kit





Click here
<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
AtQ8!jhNCFsjqqD4djzHGE5NZmMkI2sgXx9THufDF4Ashw==> to report this email
as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
(Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)





Sanctuary Group
Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700

View our disclaimer at: http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I failed to get one at W H Smith at Sheffield station but found one at the W H Smith store in the centre of Sheffield.

Regards

Gerry

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 29/03/2009 at 14:11 Paul Rowlinson wrote:

>Kit
>
>
>
>Yes the two publications were different. The fleet surveys covered a
>type of traction such as 2nd generation DMU's whereas the MRP Profiles
>were focusing on a particular class. I think MLI seeks to replicate
>these but availability is distinctly poor as far as I can see. I know
>they sell them in the Ian Allan bookshops and you can get them by post
>from their web site
>
>
>
>regard
>
>
>
>Paul Rowlinson
>
>Head of Operations, London
>
>Sanctuary Management Services
>
>Dinwiddy House, 189-205 Pentonville Road,
>
>London, N1 9NF
>
>
>
>Tel: 0207 812 0022
>
>Mob: 07787 834807
>
>
>
>Sanctuary Management Services is part of Sanctuary Group
>
>
>
>paul.rowlinson@...
><mailto:paul.rowlinson@...>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kit
>Spackman
>Sent: 29 March 2009 13:35
>To: APT Group
>Subject: <APT Group> Re: MLI
>
>
>
>That sounds promising, I must see if I can find one in the various WH
>Smiths that I frequent.
>
>Are we saying that it has been written by Colin Marsden or is that an
>assumption? If it is him it should be fine, he seemed to have an 'in' at
>the RTC that few other writers had and his photos and text were rarely
>inaccurate.
>
>I think that series of 12 magazine-like publications, the British Rail
>Fleet Survery, published by Ian Allan, was written my the late Brian
>Haresnape, apart from the last few that were done by Alec Swain. That is
>unless there was another similar series I'm confusing these with.
>
>Regards
>Kit
>
>
>
>
>
>Click here
><https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg==
>AtQ8!jhNCFsjqqD4djzHGE5NZmMkI2sgXx9THufDF4Ashw==> to report this email
>as spam to Sanctuary's managed spam filter, Websense Hosted Security.
>(Do NOT click on 'remove me' or other links from spam as that may
>confirm your email to the spam sender or lead to malicious websites)
>
>
>
>
>
>Sanctuary Group
>Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
>Tel: 01905 338600 Fax: 01905 338700
>
>View our disclaimer at: http://www.sanctuary-housing.co.uk/disclaimer.html
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kit Spackman" <101453.3657@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 1:34 PM

> Are we saying that it has been written by Colin Marsden or is that an
> assumption?

- the Editor is Colin J Marsden
- of 14 APT articles, one is attributed to "Neville Hill" and the others
are unattributed
- these 13 are full of high quality and official photos attributed to
Author or Author's Collection

CJM has got to be a suspect ;-)

David 1/2d

Hi All

I bought MLI the weekend, it is a good read although I do have a couple of points about the diposal os some of the APT-E support vehicles. Is HSFV 1 RDB511023 still in existence? I thought it was as there was a topic on here about saving it, yet the mag suggsts that it was scrapped 'by unknown contractors' in 1989.The same is also stated for the converted trestol RDB906103. What I do know is that this vehicle seems to be an enigma. I have only ever seen 3 photos of it and two of those are from Kit's collection. The other is from an official source, which make me woder if there are any more. No-one seems to know when this vehicle was disposed of, if indeed it ever was!Wishful thinking on my part as I would love to model this one.I will on day but it may not be entirely accurate but in the abscense of any info who will know? Kit- for your reference RDB906103 was the bogie/panto test thing, also known as Lab 24. I remember you saying that it was an awful thing to ride in, so bad in fact that after a short while no-one did, you monitored it from an adjacent coach.

Cheers

Shane

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny gmail" <davidhalfpenny@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Kit Spackman" <101453.3657@...>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 1:34 PM
>
> > Are we saying that it has been written by Colin Marsden or is that an
> > assumption?
>
> - the Editor is Colin J Marsden
> - of 14 APT articles, one is attributed to "Neville Hill" and the others
> are unattributed
> - these 13 are full of high quality and official photos attributed to
> Author or Author's Collection
>
> CJM has got to be a suspect ;-)
>
> David 1/2d
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "shane.wilton" <shane.wilton@...>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:51 PM

>I remember you saying that (Trestrol) was an awful thing to ride in, so
>bad in fact that after a short while no-one did, you monitored it from an
>adjacent coach.
>

Another awful thing to ride in is an airsprung vehicle with airsprings
deflated.

We (DM&EE Design and Testing teams) did some 125mph running on WCML with a
Mark 3 coach down on its bumpstops to get some objective measurements with
a portable ridemeter. Unfortunately for muggins here, the situation was a
lot worse than it would have been for a passenger because the car was
stripped bare and I was crashing about on the ridged metal floor, being
thrown into the air at every railjoint and unable to leave the car or
communicate with the rest of the crew. I soon decided that one run would be
sufficient!

David 1/2d

was curious kit, why was it approved to run e-train on standard desil when turbines can run on a variaty of different and more combustable fuels? what would the speed record have been if it ran on alternative fuel? i presume it was availibility of desil at BR?

----- Original Message -----
From: Kit Spackman
To: APT Group
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: MLI


That sounds promising, I must see if I can find one in the various WH
Smiths that I frequent.

Are we saying that it has been written by Colin Marsden or is that an
assumption? If it is him it should be fine, he seemed to have an 'in' at
the RTC that few other writers had and his photos and text were rarely
inaccurate.

I think that series of 12 magazine-like publications, the British Rail
Fleet Survery, published by Ian Allan, was written my the late Brian
Haresnape, apart from the last few that were done by Alec Swain. That is
unless there was another similar series I'm confusing these with.

Regards
Kit




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shane,

>I bought MLI the weekend, it is a good read although I do have a couple of

points about the diposal os some of the APT-E support vehicles. Is HSFV 1

>RDB511023 still in existence? I thought it was as there was a topic on

here about saving it, yet the mag suggsts that it was scrapped 'by unknown
contractors' in 1989.<

Just for a change it looks like 'CJM' is wrong. Paul Leadley and I have
been active in trying to get the NRM to take HSV1 as a historically
significant exhibit, as it DOES still exist and it's at the RTC in Derby
under Serco's ownership. Serco will be happy to donate the vehicle to the
APT-E Support Group, but saldy the NRM's attention seems to be solely on
things with boilers or those built in the Orient.......

We're still working on it, but the guy who's '......contacting you in the
near future............' from Serco seems to have a rather odd definition
of 'near future'. It's been 3 months now....

>The same is also stated for the converted trestol RDB906103. What I do

know is that this vehicle seems to be an enigma. I have only ever seen 3
photos of it and two of >those are from Kit's collection. The other is from
an official source, which make me woder if there are any more.<

Who in their right mind would want to photograph the ugly thing? <g> I've
never seen a full length photo of the Trestrol anywhere, apart from that
one of mine tilted over under the gauge test bridge on the test track.
There must have been some but the official ones seem to be lost. It's
possible they'll show up in the RTC archives at the NRM if anyone ever gets
round to sorting them out.

>No-one seems to know when this vehicle was disposed of, if indeed it ever

was!Wishful thinking on my part as I would love to model this one.I will on
day but it may not be >entirely accurate but in the abscense of any info
who will know?<

Good point indeed, who WOULD know? Think of a shed on top of a Trestrol
perched on two APT-P power bogies and you won't be far wrong. The
pantograph was only at one end, but the other end looked similar, complete
with B&Q type kitchen door to gain access to the shed.

>Kit- for your reference RDB906103 was the bogie/panto test thing, also

known as Lab 24. I remember you saying that it was an awful thing to ride
in, so bad in fact that after a >short while! No-one did, you monitored it
from an adjacent coach.<

Dead right, it was APPALLING in there! The drive shaft from the bogie,
there was only one shaft I think, came up through the floor and drove the
brake assembly that was solid mounted to the floor right behind the Mk IV
tilt pack. The Mk IV was badly underpowered but it was made from spare bits
as the proper MK IVs were late coming from the contractors, thus it was
running flat out the whole time. So you had the tilt pack noise, the drive
shaft noise, the track noise coming through holes in the floor, the airflow
noise coming through the holes in the roof, the rough ride as the vehicle
didn't weigh enough to get the Flexicoils in their proper working range,
and it was dark because there were no lights! Apart from that it was
terrific.............

I can't recall how many times we had people ride on board for a test or
transit run, but in my case it was one! I rode the darn thing out to Old
Dalby from the RTC on its first run and that was quite enough, the other
test crew members looks as I staggered down its 'ships ladder' spoke
columes. Apparently I looked like I'd just been bouncing around inside a
dustbin for a week. It sounds as if Dave Halfpenny's experiences on the
bump stops were about the same level, NOT recommended!

We always had a Lab Coach on any of the test vehicle runs, and they were
sumptuously appointed by comparison, they even had a few seats and a kichen
for goodness sake. No wonder we 'monitored' it from there.

As to Trestrol's disposal, I too have heard it was scrapped, but have no
idea where or when. It still existed when I left BR in April '78 but had
been static in the RTC Yard for some time even then. I'd like to see a
model of it sometime though.

Regards
Kit

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kit Spackman" <101453.3657@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:50 PM

> Who in their right mind would want to photograph the ugly thing? <g> I've
> never seen a full length photo of the Trestrol anywhere, apart from that
> one of mine tilted over under the gauge test bridge on the test track.
> There must have been some but the official ones seem to be lost. It's
> possible they'll show up in the RTC archives at the NRM if anyone ever
> gets
> round to sorting them out.

I love the Ugly Bug look of Trestrol! Probably my favourite RTC vehicle.

I think I have some pictures of it, but I'm not in a position to check at
the moment.

David 1/2d

David

I would love to see the pics of Trestol when you find them.

Shane

-- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny gmail" <davidhalfpenny@...> wrote:

>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Kit Spackman" <101453.3657@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:50 PM
>
> > Who in their right mind would want to photograph the ugly thing? <g> I've
> > never seen a full length photo of the Trestrol anywhere, apart from that
> > one of mine tilted over under the gauge test bridge on the test track.
> > There must have been some but the official ones seem to be lost. It's
> > possible they'll show up in the RTC archives at the NRM if anyone ever
> > gets
> > round to sorting them out.
>
> I love the Ugly Bug look of Trestrol! Probably my favourite RTC vehicle.
>
> I think I have some pictures of it, but I'm not in a position to check at
> the moment.
>
> David 1/2d
>

Hi All

In a previous posting reference was made by Kit to the RTC archive at the NRM and if they ever get round to sorting it out. Is it possible to gain access to it and make a start on sorting it or has this already been attempted?

Shane

This looks very interesting:
http://www.networkdvd.net/product_info.php?products_id=829

Slightly cheaper at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Railways-Beeching-Beyond-DVD/dp/B001TJKVXM/ref=sr_gnr_fkmr?ie=UTF8&qid=1238609734

Enjoy!
Andy

Has anyone bought a copy? I`ve just ordered mine.

guess every one has, pls delete my last post.

Yes, from WH Smith.

You'll love it. David 1/2d

--------------------------------------------------
From: "bendownpls" <bendownpls@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:56 AM
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: <APT Group> Modern Locomotives Illustrated Issue 176

> Has anyone bought a copy? I`ve just ordered mine.

Am I right in thinking the APT-E is in Shildon and the APT-P is in Crewe?

>Am I right in thinking the APT-E is in Shildon and the APT-P is in Crewe?<

Unless someone snuck them away in the last few weeks, the answer's 'yes'.
<g>

Regards
Kit