http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6521295.stm

Still very interesting.

Paul

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6521295.stm<

What? No snide remarks about APT ANYWHERE in the piece? The Beeb must be
slipping........... <g>

Not quite sure about the '.......the TGV technology which was invented in
France 30 years ago ......' bit. Without Dr Alan Wickens' ground work in
the 60s and 70s they wouldn't be there now.

Plus my Dad, if he was still alive, would have a few things to say about
the 'The train travelled almost as fast as a World War II Spitfire fighter
at top speed.' bit as well. While a Spitfire Vb maxed out at 320 kts (13%
faster than the TGV), and the later PR19s that Dad flew were almost 100
kts faster at altitude.

Regards
Kit

I was wondering if there was any news on the drawing front?

Peter

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140105933898

A must for all APT enthusiasts!

Andy

Attachments :

See attachement, APT-P at Crewe doomed?!? Not to mention a big kick in the
b*ll*cks for our good freind Rob Lathom who has almost given his life for
the past several years looking after the train!

I'm in shock :-(
Andy

Hi all

Thanks for the news, its been on the cards for a while and that why I
created my site to highlight this in a way. Like to hear Rob Lathom
views to this? It's about time that we start to move and to save the
APT-P. Just because it does not puff steam does not make it any more
less important. Views welcome

Justin Coleman

>>>>>>>>>>>>> A P T - P .info

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew
Appleton" <APT370@...> wrote:

>
> See attachement, APT-P at Crewe doomed?!? Not to mention a big kick

in the

> b*ll*cks for our good freind Rob Lathom who has almost given his

life for

> the past several years looking after the train!
>
> I'm in shock :-(
> Andy
>

NRM - we need you!

Andy

Unfortunately cannot see attachment - but guess it is been sold/scrapped. If any would the
AC Loco group have an interest?

> Unfortunately cannot see attachment - but guess it is been sold/scrapped.

Hello Simon,

I'll email you the article & if any other group members, who don't receive
individual email, would like to see the article posted to the group please
contact me OFF-GROUP & I'll email it to you direct.

I don't think the APT-P has been sold just yet but it would appear that the
sand timer is well in flow!

APT in need - NRM / AC Loco Group - we need you!
Andy

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Advanced-Passenger-Train
group.

File : /HR001.jpg
Uploaded by : apt_p <APT370@...>
Description : APT-P doomed? (Heritage Railways news article)

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/files/HR001.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

apt_p <APT370@...>

Andy,

>NRM - we need you!<

The last hing we need is the NRM to get it's hands on P -Train!

Just look at the tender loving care they've vested on the last P-Train
Power car at Shildon. A bigger load of junk would be difficult to find
frankly. Paul and I walked through it when were moving E-Train up there and
I was appalled. This was meant to be a historical exhibit for goodness
sake, and they left it to rot on some siding somewhere for years.

Why does that sound familiar then??????

If it's not steam the NRM don't give a damn as far as I can see.

What it needs is Pete Waterman to put his money up, after all he always
says it's 'his train' ............

Regards
Cynical Kit

I've mixed feelings about this. Clearly the P-train is deteriorating.
It's current owners lack the funds to restore and maintain it and it
is only going to get worse out in the open with each winter we have.

So, it passing into current hands could be a big opportunity.

I don't think any preservation group would have both the resources and
the inclination to do it justice. Forget the ac loco group. I don't
think the major players - DPS, Fifty Fund, DTG etc would see it as
fitting into their field.

So as much as Kit laments the abject failure of the NRM thus far to
take diesel and electric preservation seriously, I think they are the
only outfit with the necessary resources.

The set undoubtedly meets the criteria to be in the National
Collection as a unique and historic piece of kit. The NRM should be
made to face up to their responsibilities and step in.

Mark







--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@...> wrote:

>
> Andy,
>
> >NRM - we need you!<
>
> The last hing we need is the NRM to get it's hands on P -Train!
>
> Just look at the tender loving care they've vested on the last P-Train
> Power car at Shildon. A bigger load of junk would be difficult to find
> frankly. Paul and I walked through it when were moving E-Train up

there and

> I was appalled. This was meant to be a historical exhibit for goodness
> sake, and they left it to rot on some siding somewhere for years.
>
> Why does that sound familiar then??????
>
> If it's not steam the NRM don't give a damn as far as I can see.
>
> What it needs is Pete Waterman to put his money up, after all he always
> says it's 'his train' ............
>
> Regards
> Cynical Kit
>

It would take considerable resources to restore the train into presentable,
let alone tow-able condition. I would see the biggest headache being finding
secure accomodation for the unit.

I wonder if the E-trains old siding could be used again? Have we still got
the tent :-)


Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Peterborough, UK
Website: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
My Blog: http://captainelectra.blogspot.com/


-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Drury
Sent: 16 April 2007 18:40
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: re :URGENT - Very Bad News regarding APT-P @ Crewe
!!!!!

I've mixed feelings about this. Clearly the P-train is deteriorating.
It's current owners lack the funds to restore and maintain it and it is
only going to get worse out in the open with each winter we have.

So, it passing into current hands could be a big opportunity.

I don't think any preservation group would have both the resources and the
inclination to do it justice. Forget the ac loco group. I don't think the
major players - DPS, Fifty Fund, DTG etc would see it as fitting into their
field.

So as much as Kit laments the abject failure of the NRM thus far to take
diesel and electric preservation seriously, I think they are the only outfit
with the necessary resources.

The set undoubtedly meets the criteria to be in the National Collection as a
unique and historic piece of kit. The NRM should be made to face up to
their responsibilities and step in.

Mark







--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@...> wrote:

>
> Andy,
>
> >NRM - we need you!<
>
> The last hing we need is the NRM to get it's hands on P -Train!
>
> Just look at the tender loving care they've vested on the last P-Train
> Power car at Shildon. A bigger load of junk would be difficult to find
> frankly. Paul and I walked through it when were moving E-Train up

there and

> I was appalled. This was meant to be a historical exhibit for goodness
> sake, and they left it to rot on some siding somewhere for years.
>
> Why does that sound familiar then??????
>
> If it's not steam the NRM don't give a damn as far as I can see.
>
> What it needs is Pete Waterman to put his money up, after all he
> always says it's 'his train' ............
>
> Regards
> Cynical Kit
>

Yahoo! Groups Links




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16:22


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16:22

First of all thanks Andy for emailing the article.

Second and I am sorry if this all sounds a bit blunt but we seem to moan about this but
seldom follow up (please correct me if I am wrong)? The E train work was just to get its
exterior in a fit state to display (quite frankly all the NRM wanted) and despite Robs valiant
efforts the fact that p-train is outside was a key marker to where we are now.

I commend those who have been involved with preservation efforts so far but what is
needed is strategy - what are the two groups hoping to acheive with their efforts? In my
view what is needed is a clear strategic direction which can then be steered in bite size
pieces. Money is needed but where are the letters to potential parties and the coordinated
lobbying effort? If the NRM won't listen then perhaps their masters at the DCMS or NMSI
might (I say this as a civil servant)!

We don't know if Pete Waterman is interested, what about Virgin trains? Could the AC
Loco group take it on if there was some funding elements from these latter two parties?

I suggest what is needed is one coordinated APT group set up to meet (soon) to agree an
overall strategy and preservation plan and then deliver real impact. It is clear that TRA
would prefer to dispose of the train and we therefore need to start acting by fiirstly
influencing TRA/NRM/ACLG and then developing options.

Any thoughts on this but I think we could use the expertise of the ACLG and obtaining buy
in from those already closely involved (Rob, Paul, Kit et al) will be critical.

It would be interesting to see how much money was raised via a petition akin to the recent
Class 89 fund, or indeed how may signatures could be attracted by lobbying directly to No
10.

Simon

Hi all,
Ron sent me the article last week, and Ive been trying to contact TRA
since then. What we need for a start is clarification on what they
intend to do with P train, they must have an idea by now.

As Rob has been asked not to have anything to do with P train and all
the support staff have been asked to leave, I think we are in very
dark waters.

If the plan is to scrap P train then we really do need to act fast,
like Simon says, we need to meet ASAP and get some form of action
group together, one I will support with everything I have and Im sure
many will help. Me and Kit with large boots on maybe required, like
we had to do to the NRM when they planned to move E train.

I see it like this, problems.....

1. Time
2. Purchase of P train, (if they dont want it, surely they might
donate it)
3. A place to keep it, Shildon isnt big enough so the NRM would not
be able to help, even in the event they wanted to.
4. A way to move P train, and who would pay for it. (I wonder if
Andrew Goodman could help with that!!!)

We need to act now, or Britains faster train for over 25 years will
pass into history.

Lets get something started, E train is safe now, P train needs us.

Lets do it.

Regards

Paul

Ive emailed and left a voice message to Jim Rees (NRM) about the future
of APT-P, in case we do have to use them.

I doubt of the response, but I live in hope, at least it gets the ball
rolling.

Regards

Paul

I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to donate the set, after
all on the balance sheet it would show as a net liability. The cost
of moving it, either by road or rail would be huge.

It may be necessary to think the unthinkable - losing some of the
trailers to save the other vehicles. A 4 car set would fit in Shildon,
for example.

I wonder if the Railway Heritage Committee would have a role in
designating the set as historically significant?

Mark






--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
<PAUL@...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
> Ron sent me the article last week, and Ive been trying to contact TRA
> since then. What we need for a start is clarification on what they
> intend to do with P train, they must have an idea by now.
>
> As Rob has been asked not to have anything to do with P train and all
> the support staff have been asked to leave, I think we are in very
> dark waters.
>
> If the plan is to scrap P train then we really do need to act fast,
> like Simon says, we need to meet ASAP and get some form of action
> group together, one I will support with everything I have and Im sure
> many will help. Me and Kit with large boots on maybe required, like
> we had to do to the NRM when they planned to move E train.
>
> I see it like this, problems.....
>
> 1. Time
> 2. Purchase of P train, (if they dont want it, surely they might
> donate it)
> 3. A place to keep it, Shildon isnt big enough so the NRM would not
> be able to help, even in the event they wanted to.
> 4. A way to move P train, and who would pay for it. (I wonder if
> Andrew Goodman could help with that!!!)
>
> We need to act now, or Britains faster train for over 25 years will
> pass into history.
>
> Lets get something started, E train is safe now, P train needs us.
>
> Lets do it.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>

Minimum length would have to be 5 cars including the powercar, you
might just get that into Shildon, if they gave it a full lane, but
the formation would still have to be split, like E train is for fire
reasons, no way around that.

We can still, live and hope.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Drury"
<world.domination@...> wrote:

>
> I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to donate the set,

after

> all on the balance sheet it would show as a net liability. The cost
> of moving it, either by road or rail would be huge.
>
> It may be necessary to think the unthinkable - losing some of the
> trailers to save the other vehicles. A 4 car set would fit in

Shildon,

> for example.
>
> I wonder if the Railway Heritage Committee would have a role in
> designating the set as historically significant?
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
> <PAUL@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Ron sent me the article last week, and Ive been trying to contact

TRA

> > since then. What we need for a start is clarification on what

they

> > intend to do with P train, they must have an idea by now.
> >
> > As Rob has been asked not to have anything to do with P train and

all

> > the support staff have been asked to leave, I think we are in

very

> > dark waters.
> >
> > If the plan is to scrap P train then we really do need to act

fast,

> > like Simon says, we need to meet ASAP and get some form of action
> > group together, one I will support with everything I have and Im

sure

> > many will help. Me and Kit with large boots on maybe required,

like

> > we had to do to the NRM when they planned to move E train.
> >
> > I see it like this, problems.....
> >
> > 1. Time
> > 2. Purchase of P train, (if they dont want it, surely they might
> > donate it)
> > 3. A place to keep it, Shildon isnt big enough so the NRM would

not

> > be able to help, even in the event they wanted to.
> > 4. A way to move P train, and who would pay for it. (I wonder if
> > Andrew Goodman could help with that!!!)
> >
> > We need to act now, or Britains faster train for over 25 years

will

> > pass into history.
> >
> > Lets get something started, E train is safe now, P train needs

us.

> >
> > Lets do it.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
>

With Virgin back in charge of the WCML, perhaps they may be able to offer
some sort of corporate sponsorship for any move. As has been pointed out,
the main obstacle must be secure accomodation.

We have the fledgling Railworld stie in Peterborough, which is expanding
rapidly both sides of the river - could be worth a try as the APT fits in
well with their objectives for promoting green, fst rail travel.

Count me in for any preservation effort that may come about.

Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Peterborough, UK
Website: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
My Blog: http://captainelectra.blogspot.com/


-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leadley
Sent: 17 April 2007 18:48
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P

Minimum length would have to be 5 cars including the powercar, you might
just get that into Shildon, if they gave it a full lane, but the formation
would still have to be split, like E train is for fire reasons, no way
around that.

We can still, live and hope.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Drury"
<world.domination@...> wrote:

>
> I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to donate the set,

after

> all on the balance sheet it would show as a net liability. The cost
> of moving it, either by road or rail would be huge.
>
> It may be necessary to think the unthinkable - losing some of the
> trailers to save the other vehicles. A 4 car set would fit in

Shildon,

> for example.
>
> I wonder if the Railway Heritage Committee would have a role in
> designating the set as historically significant?
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
> <PAUL@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Ron sent me the article last week, and Ive been trying to contact

TRA

> > since then. What we need for a start is clarification on what

they

> > intend to do with P train, they must have an idea by now.
> >
> > As Rob has been asked not to have anything to do with P train and

all

> > the support staff have been asked to leave, I think we are in

very

> > dark waters.
> >
> > If the plan is to scrap P train then we really do need to act

fast,

> > like Simon says, we need to meet ASAP and get some form of action
> > group together, one I will support with everything I have and Im

sure

> > many will help. Me and Kit with large boots on maybe required,

like

> > we had to do to the NRM when they planned to move E train.
> >
> > I see it like this, problems.....
> >
> > 1. Time
> > 2. Purchase of P train, (if they dont want it, surely they might
> > donate it) 3. A place to keep it, Shildon isnt big enough so the
> > NRM would

not

> > be able to help, even in the event they wanted to.
> > 4. A way to move P train, and who would pay for it. (I wonder if
> > Andrew Goodman could help with that!!!)
> >
> > We need to act now, or Britains faster train for over 25 years

will

> > pass into history.
> >
> > Lets get something started, E train is safe now, P train needs

us.

> >
> > Lets do it.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
>

Yahoo! Groups Links




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04:43


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04:43

i was under the impression that the P train was on the railway heratige
register and thus cant be scrapped without all hell breaking loose.

is crew oipen at the moment. i want to take some measurements before
anything drastic happens.

Peter

"I want to take some measurements before anything drastic happens."

Me too!


It's currently open on Saturdays, Sundays, and Bank Holidays, 10am-4pm
(last admin 3pm), till the end of September 2007:
www.therailwayage.co.uk

As far as I know the power car at Shildon is the only safeguarded item in
the national collection. The trailers face a very uncertain future unless
drastic action is taken.

A posting on the RMWeb model railway forum sheds a little light...

It is true, the Railway Age are looking for either someone to take
responsibility for the unit or a new home for it.

While it does have an important part in the history of express passenger
transport in the UK it does not have any specific connection with Crewe. The
unit is suffering from severe rotting internally and the paintwork is
peeling off the outside.

If anyone has a (serious) offer of help for the future of this train please
get in touch with the Railway Age, contact details can be found on their
website.

http://www.therailwayage.co.uk

Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Peterborough, UK
Website: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
My Blog: http://captainelectra.blogspot.com/


-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pedromorgan
Sent: 18 April 2007 13:47
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P

i was under the impression that the P train was on the railway heratige
register and thus cant be scrapped without all hell breaking loose.

is crew oipen at the moment. i want to take some measurements before
anything drastic happens.

Peter


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.2/766 - Release Date: 18/04/2007
07:39

Did I read that APT-P is built from Aluminium and with scrap values so
high at the moment there will clearly be an incentive to go with the
most cash, particularly if it can be diverted into other restoration
projects. It would be very galling if this happened particularly if it
funded steam restoration.

Distance prevents my involvement but a digital photo library of just
about every aspect of the train inside and out, top, bottom and
underneath might be a useful idea if it could be made available to the
group. Any volunteers>

regards

Paul Rowlinson
Head of Student Housing
Tel : 0207 812 0022
Mob : 07787 834807

-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Warr
Sent: 18 April 2007 19:44
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P

As far as I know the power car at Shildon is the only safeguarded item
in
the national collection. The trailers face a very uncertain future
unless
drastic action is taken.

A posting on the RMWeb model railway forum sheds a little light...

It is true, the Railway Age are looking for either someone to take
responsibility for the unit or a new home for it.

While it does have an important part in the history of express passenger
transport in the UK it does not have any specific connection with Crewe.
The
unit is suffering from severe rotting internally and the paintwork is
peeling off the outside.

If anyone has a (serious) offer of help for the future of this train
please
get in touch with the Railway Age, contact details can be found on their
website.

http://www.therailwayage.co.uk

Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Peterborough, UK
Website: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
My Blog: http://captainelectra.blogspot.com/


-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
pedromorgan
Sent: 18 April 2007 13:47
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P

i was under the impression that the P train was on the railway heratige
register and thus cant be scrapped without all hell breaking loose.

is crew oipen at the moment. i want to take some measurements before
anything drastic happens.

Peter


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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.2/766 - Release Date:
18/04/2007
07:39





Yahoo! Groups Links




This message is confidential and intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately. No warranty is given that attachments received are Virus-free, but messages are scanned for all viruses by Star Internet/MessageLabs. Any views expressed herein are not necessarily those of Sanctuary Housing Association or its subsidiaries or of Shaftesbury Housing Association or its subsidiaries. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ

Shaftesbury Housing Association is a charitable Industrial and Provident Society No. 19574R and a member of the Sanctuary Housing Group. www.shaftesburyhousing.org.uk

Banbury Homes Housing Association Limited, trading as Banbury Homes, is a charitable Industrial and Provident Society No. 27909R and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member of the Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ www.banburyhomes.org.uk

Kingsmead Homes (Hackney) Limited is a company limited by guarantee registered in England No. 3375788 and is a registered charity No. 1068684 and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member of Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ. www.kingsmeadhomes.org.uk

Paul and I had a lengthy phone conversation about this today as I was en
route across Cambridgeshire at some speed.

(Not quite as fast as the 'E-Train Special Stage' Paul....... <g>)

As usual the limiting factor is money, always is and always will be. While
the train may be donated for just a peppercorn fee, the costs of moving
would make
the E-Train moving costs look like a light lunch by comparison. There's
also the issue of lack of technical expertise for P-Train, there isn't an
equivalent of me
around the place with the background knowledge as far as I know.

As well as searching for a location and money to finance the move we should
be looking for an engineer with that knowledge. Anyone got any suggestions,
or even a link person? I'm tempted to suggest it may be worth starting with
Ron Puntis. Even if he doesn't want to be actively involved he may know
someone who could help out.

After our phone call I was thinking of possible financers, and came up with
the same solution as Adam, ie Virgin. When the Pendelino service opened up
Virgin were very positive about P-Train's contribuition to high speed
railway service on the WCML and may well not be too hapy to see it cast
away.

Peter also has a good point about it being on the register, in which case
TRA may have a problem on their hands whether they like it or not.

How knows how the register operates and who does operate it?

Regards
Kit

>As well as searching for a location and money to finance the move we should
>be looking for an engineer with that knowledge. Anyone got any suggestions,
>or even a link person? I'm tempted to suggest it may be worth starting with
>Ron Puntis. Even if he doesn't want to be actively involved he may know
>someone who could help out.

Have you tried John Harris? He was the senior commissioning engineer for
P-Train - I saw him (and Brian King) at a lecture recently. John surely
knows every nut and bolt on the train. He's a professional that could bring
much credability to a proposal if resources were found to attempt a move.

APT was moved across the car park when the super market moved in, what was
involved in that? Who carried it out? Can anything positive be learned from
that?

Regards,
Steve.

_________________________________________________________________
Could you be the guest MSN Movies presenter? Click Here to Audition
http://www.lightscameraaudition.co.uk

With regard to scrap value... Coming from a museums background I'd like to
think that if the Railway Age is going to dispose of it - then it has a
moral responsibility to ensure it is disposed of firstly to another museum
or preservation group over and above any possible scrap value.

Ethically: they shouldn't be considering making money out of it's disposal
if the objective is to remove it from possible future expenditure. Certainly
The Railway Age would not be able to hold its head high if they allowed it
to be broken up on site without trying their hardest to ensure it could be
placed securely into other hands. This appears to be what they are doing
now, sounding out the possibilities of disposal by saying they are open to
any thoughts.

Unfortunately Multiple units (particularly EMU's) are the most awkward to
preserve due to their sheer size and in the case of EMU's - never likely to
operate under their own power again; remember what happened to the old
Glossop 1500v EMU at The Midland Railway Centre?

Is the agenda to remove it from TRA's books and future responsibility? ...
or do they just plain want rid of it off their site?

If the purpose is to remove responsibility from TRA then a proposal along
the following lines might be the best hope of a serious plan as I suspect
that the long term responsibility and current state of the set are the key
turn offs for the museum... it's fairly easy, low key and allows the museum
a professional solution to a problem.... and no moving of vehicles
involved!! In the long term it could even be profitable for TRA.

1) An official and credible body be set up to take responsibility and
custody of the vehicles.
2) The Railway Age transfer (or sell at a nominal fee) the vehicles to the
new body.
3) An agreement be reached whereby the new group may rent the track or land
that the vehicles currently occupy.
4) Some kind of non-offensive screen (ideally a tent a'la APT-E) be errected
over and around the vehicles as they stand so the train is covered and no
longer visible.
5) The tent provides a clean appearence for the museum, the vehicles out of
site, and allows the new group the potential to sell advertising space
(maybe sponsorship from Virgin?) on the outside. Going really wild - how
about a tent thats Pendolino shaped at both ends?? I know Richard would love
that!
The tent then encases the APT from the elements and also provides
possibilites of charging admission fees to a) get in the tent and see the
restoration work done by volunteers and b) see possible exhibitions in the
vehicles which could be changed frequently and attract sponsors.

A happy solution and one that could even be an attraction!

As long as rent can be met and visible progress is seen then I doubt the
museum would wish the vehicles elsewhere. There was no talk of getting rid
when the vehicles were fully repainted was there??

Talk of disposal on the grounds of no importance to Crewe is no valid
reason. Crewe Heritage became the Railway Age to take on a wider scope of
exhibits.
The Railway Age ?? ..The APT is THE AGE OF THE TRAIN and it represents major
advancements in Britain's electric future and the world over!
The Gas Turbine 18000 and Exeter West signal box are of no importance to
Crewe either, other than that's where they now reside?? However, in the
Railway Age of Britain - they are very important exhibits, likewise so is
APT - it just needs looking after on a grander scale than has thus been
allowed. If the museum can't cope with it alone - then I would hope they
would be open to a proposal that would help them achieve this.

Steve.

>From: "Paul Rowlinson" <pwr@...>
>Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:52:32 +0100
>
>Did I read that APT-P is built from Aluminium and with scrap values so
>high at the moment there will clearly be an incentive to go with the
>most cash, particularly if it can be diverted into other restoration
>projects. It would be very galling if this happened particularly if it
>funded steam restoration.
>
>Distance prevents my involvement but a digital photo library of just
>about every aspect of the train inside and out, top, bottom and
>underneath might be a useful idea if it could be made available to the
>group. Any volunteers>
>
>regards
>
>Paul Rowlinson
>Head of Student Housing
>Tel : 0207 812 0022
>Mob : 07787 834807
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Warr
>Sent: 18 April 2007 19:44
>To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P
>
>As far as I know the power car at Shildon is the only safeguarded item
>in
>the national collection. The trailers face a very uncertain future
>unless
>drastic action is taken.
>
>A posting on the RMWeb model railway forum sheds a little light...
>
>It is true, the Railway Age are looking for either someone to take
>responsibility for the unit or a new home for it.
>
>While it does have an important part in the history of express passenger
>transport in the UK it does not have any specific connection with Crewe.
>The
>unit is suffering from severe rotting internally and the paintwork is
>peeling off the outside.
>
>If anyone has a (serious) offer of help for the future of this train
>please
>get in touch with the Railway Age, contact details can be found on their
>website.
>
>http://www.therailwayage.co.uk
>
>Best Regards,
>Adam Warr
>Peterborough, UK
>Website: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
>My Blog: http://captainelectra.blogspot.com/
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
>pedromorgan
>Sent: 18 April 2007 13:47
>To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: <APT Group> Re: Future of APT-P
>
>i was under the impression that the P train was on the railway heratige
>register and thus cant be scrapped without all hell breaking loose.
>
>is crew oipen at the moment. i want to take some measurements before
>anything drastic happens.
>
>Peter
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.2/766 - Release Date:
>18/04/2007
>07:39
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>This message is confidential and intended for the exclusive use of the
>addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the
>sender immediately. No warranty is given that attachments received are
>Virus-free, but messages are scanned for all viruses by Star
>Internet/MessageLabs. Any views expressed herein are not necessarily those
>of Sanctuary Housing Association or its subsidiaries or of Shaftesbury
>Housing Association or its subsidiaries. Registered office: Sanctuary
>House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
>
>Shaftesbury Housing Association is a charitable Industrial and Provident
>Society No. 19574R and a member of the Sanctuary Housing Group.
>www.shaftesburyhousing.org.uk
>
>Banbury Homes Housing Association Limited, trading as Banbury Homes, is a
>charitable Industrial and Provident Society No. 27909R and is a subsidiary
>of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member of the Sanctuary Housing
>Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street,
>Worcester, WR1 3ZQ www.banburyhomes.org.uk
>
>Kingsmead Homes (Hackney) Limited is a company limited by guarantee
>registered in England No. 3375788 and is a registered charity No. 1068684
>and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member of
>Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court,
>Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ. www.kingsmeadhomes.org.uk

_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
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I said.....

Hello,
I am deeply worrid by the recent press releases regarding the future
of the APT-P at The Railway Age.
As the founder member of the APT-E Conservation & Support group,
which stopped the NRM from scrapping the first experimental APT in
1995, I feel I must try and help in the conservation of the most
important railway item.

If any rescue plan is to be prepared we first must understand what
TRA is planning to do with the P train future. If, as stated, you
are unable to bring the P train back from the brink, then a
formulated rescue plan must be put together and a new home found for
the train.

Any information at this time would be very helpfull.

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon


There reply.............

Hi Paul,
Firstly let me put your mind at rest, what has appeared in the press
is partially the truth and partially media hype.

We have been assessing everything we have on site for the past few
months, and the reality is that the APT-P has been allowed to
deteriorate to a point where it needs a large amount of money and
resources to bring it back to a suitable 'preserved' state, and this
is money and resources which at the moment we haven't got.

We are therefore saying that we need help to secure the future of the
APT-P.

We are open to suggestions concerning the future of the train, we
have certainly not discussed scrapping it, we would like to see it
restored back to pristine condition. If that means it leaves our site
then so be it, likewise it could be restored where it is, we are more
than happy for it to stay on site. But we have to look at whats best
for this unique vehicle.

We would certainly welcome your input into it.

Regards
Glynne


What do we think people?

I think that's about the best reply we could have hoped for.

The worry and urgency has significantly dropped, but I don't think we
should totally relax just yet. This could be a chance for good things
to happen.

The idea of approaching Virgin etc for cash could still go ahead.

The most interesting thing to note, is they are willing to l,et the
train go, if need be.

The train still needs to be under cover ASAP so plans for a new home
should still be looked at.

At least we now know, (for the present time), the only remaining P
train will not go the same as the rest, a trip to Rotheram.

Regards

Paul

it appears that railway age are happy for apt to stay at crewe then,
its the perfect place for unit, all it needs now is money, money and
some knowhow

kev

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
<PAUL@...> wrote:

>
> I said.....
>
> Hello,
> I am deeply worrid by the recent press releases regarding the

future

> of the APT-P at The Railway Age.
> As the founder member of the APT-E Conservation & Support group,
> which stopped the NRM from scrapping the first experimental APT in
> 1995, I feel I must try and help in the conservation of the most
> important railway item.
>
> If any rescue plan is to be prepared we first must understand what
> TRA is planning to do with the P train future. If, as stated, you
> are unable to bring the P train back from the brink, then a
> formulated rescue plan must be put together and a new home found

for

> the train.
>
> Any information at this time would be very helpfull.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Leadley
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon
>
>
> There reply.............
>
> Hi Paul,
> Firstly let me put your mind at rest, what has appeared in the

press

> is partially the truth and partially media hype.
>
> We have been assessing everything we have on site for the past few
> months, and the reality is that the APT-P has been allowed to
> deteriorate to a point where it needs a large amount of money and
> resources to bring it back to a suitable 'preserved' state, and

this

> is money and resources which at the moment we haven't got.
>
> We are therefore saying that we need help to secure the future of

the

> APT-P.
>
> We are open to suggestions concerning the future of the train, we
> have certainly not discussed scrapping it, we would like to see it
> restored back to pristine condition. If that means it leaves our

site

> then so be it, likewise it could be restored where it is, we are

more

> than happy for it to stay on site. But we have to look at whats

best

> for this unique vehicle.
>
> We would certainly welcome your input into it.
>
> Regards
> Glynne
>
>
> What do we think people?
>

Hi Paul,

That has to be some degree of good news, anyhow. Fingers crossed that a
concerted preservation effort can commence.


Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Peterborough, UK
Website: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
My Blog: http://captainelectra.blogspot.com/


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.0/775 - Release Date: 24/04/2007
17:43

Paul - this is good news for the time being and you know my thoughts about a group
which are still valid.

I would argue that the plan should be to move the train away from Crewe if this is possible
as there is no under cover accomodation and any money ploughed in will have to go to
continually maintaining it against the elements - not an efficient use of funds and we all
saw the state e-trian was in at the first NRM meet.

I still think the ACLG and or NRM route (perhaps with sponsorship from some third party)
is the preferable route (and one which I think could be acheived if we coordinate ourselves
effectively).

Simon

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...>
wrote:

>
> Paul and I had a lengthy phone conversation about this today as I was en
> route across Cambridgeshire at some speed.
>
> (Not quite as fast as the 'E-Train Special Stage' Paul....... <g>)
>
> As usual the limiting factor is money, always is and always will be. While
> the train may be donated for just a peppercorn fee, the costs of moving
> would make
> the E-Train moving costs look like a light lunch by comparison. There's
> also the issue of lack of technical expertise for P-Train, there isn't an
> equivalent of me
> around the place with the background knowledge as far as I know.
>
> As well as searching for a location and money to finance the move we should
> be looking for an engineer with that knowledge. Anyone got any suggestions,
> or even a link person? I'm tempted to suggest it may be worth starting with
> Ron Puntis. Even if he doesn't want to be actively involved he may know
> someone who could help out.
>
> After our phone call I was thinking of possible financers, and came up with
> the same solution as Adam, ie Virgin. When the Pendelino service opened up
> Virgin were very positive about P-Train's contribuition to high speed
> railway service on the WCML and may well not be too hapy to see it cast
> away.
>
> Peter also has a good point about it being on the register, in which case
> TRA may have a problem on their hands whether they like it or not.
>
> How knows how the register operates and who does operate it?
>
> Regards
> Kit
>

Hello All,
I asked the NRM to see if they could offer any help, be it, practical
or suggestion about the state of APT-P.

I receieved this today.....

APT-P from the APT-E support group.
Hello Paul,

Good to hear from you again. I did read the article in Heritage
Railway about the APT at Crewe, although I didn't read it as a firm
intention to scrap, but as an honest admission that there wasn't the
money to care for it properly, and certainly not to house it properly
for real long term care. I'm sure we would all agree that that is no
more than an honest assessment.

I felt that the article was partly to gauge the level of interest out
there, and so your own interest will be very helpful.

I am not sure what the NRM can do to help. Whilst I certainly hope it
does survive, the very reason that the NRM disposed of it in the
first place was that it, too, realised that it could never hope to
care for both, and that we should concentrate on caring for the one
we have, and housing it properly, plus a power car from this one as a
representative.

My comment - Hm.... concentrate on caring for the one we have!!!!!!!

As you know this all took a very long time, to fund and build
Shildon, never mind the vast cost of moving it. We certainly do not
have the resources or space to take it on again now, much as I hope
that the current owners do manage to find the money to house it.

My comment - NEWS TO ME ON THIS PART, Richard Gibbon told me in 1995,
if it wasnt for my interest, it "WAS" going.

When you say that you helped rescue the APT from the scrap yard,
whilst very happy to acknowledge the great help of the Group, the
vehicle was not in a scrap yard, it was in our South Yard, whist
money was successfully found to house it!

My Comment - "SOUTH YARD", yes, since 1987/8, and left!!!! "SOUTH
YARD", it was the same as a scrap yard.

With best wishes for the success of your rescue plan.

Jim.

Credit to the E train group for doing all we did is only fare I think.

Oh well......

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon

There's a full two-page spread in the latest (June) edition of The Railway Magazine.

It's VERY good too !!!!

Andy

Paul,

>.....whilst very happy to acknowledge the great help of the Group...<

Great help????

If it wasn't for the existence of the Group they'd have scrapped E-Train
without turning a hair! The Group, your invention, was VITAL to the current
existence of E-Train and I'm sure the NRM hadn't any intention of putting
her in Shildon when Locomotion was first mooted.

'If it's not steam we don't care....'

Regards
Kit

Hi Kit and all,
When I first approached the NRM about saving the E train, Shildon
wasnt even on the cards. It was at my first proper (pestering)
meeting with Richard Gibbon, that he mentioned that E train was on
the draft scrapping list, needless to say, that really did get me
going to save E train.

The good news is, the last parts of the workshop are being put in
place this month, and Locomotion has employed a workshop manager so
things may, after over 2 years, get going again.

I think I (we) had the last laugh, as Jim also said that E train was
never on a scrapping list, I sent him a copy of the Tyne Tees
Television two part news report that has Richard saying in 1995, E
train was going for scrap!

At least E train is safe, less hope P train can also be.

Regards to all,

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@...> wrote:

>
> Paul,
>
> >.....whilst very happy to acknowledge the great help of the

Group...<

>
> Great help????
>
> If it wasn't for the existence of the Group they'd have scrapped E-

Train

> without turning a hair! The Group, your invention, was VITAL to the

current

> existence of E-Train and I'm sure the NRM hadn't any intention of

putting

> her in Shildon when Locomotion was first mooted.
>
> 'If it's not steam we don't care....'
>
> Regards
> Kit
>

Hi all,
The article in The Railway Magazine, is really just a re-hash of the
first article, but at least its another publication showing and
supporting the APT as a national treasure.

It can only help.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Rowlinson"
<pwr@...> wrote:

>
> HI all
>
>
>
> There is an article in the railway magazine published today, about

the

> plight of the P train and The railway Age. I have not read it yet

but it

> does run to two pages
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> Paul Rowlinson
>
> Head of Student Housing
>
> Tel : 0207 812 0022
>
> Mob : 07787 834807
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Leadley
> Sent: 02 May 2007 22:18
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: <APT Group> Re: NRM reply to APT-P Fate ! ! !
>
>
>
> Hi Kit and all,
> When I first approached the NRM about saving the E train, Shildon
> wasnt even on the cards. It was at my first proper (pestering)
> meeting with Richard Gibbon, that he mentioned that E train was on
> the draft scrapping list, needless to say, that really did get me
> going to save E train.
>
> The good news is, the last parts of the workshop are being put in
> place this month, and Locomotion has employed a workshop manager so
> things may, after over 2 years, get going again.
>
> I think I (we) had the last laugh, as Jim also said that E train

was

> never on a scrapping list, I sent him a copy of the Tyne Tees
> Television two part news report that has Richard saying in 1995, E
> train was going for scrap!
>
> At least E train is safe, less hope P train can also be.
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train%40yahoogroups.com> , Kit Spackman
> <101453.3657@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > >.....whilst very happy to acknowledge the great help of the
> Group...<
> >
> > Great help????
> >
> > If it wasn't for the existence of the Group they'd have scrapped

E-

> Train
> > without turning a hair! The Group, your invention, was VITAL to

the

> current
> > existence of E-Train and I'm sure the NRM hadn't any intention of
> putting
> > her in Shildon when Locomotion was first mooted.
> >
> > 'If it's not steam we don't care....'
> >
> > Regards
> > Kit
> >
>
>
>
>
> This message is confidential and intended for the exclusive use of

the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please
notify the sender immediately. No warranty is given that attachments
received are Virus-free, but messages are scanned for all viruses by
Star Internet/MessageLabs. Any views expressed herein are not
necessarily those of Sanctuary Housing Association or its
subsidiaries or of Shaftesbury Housing Association or its
subsidiaries. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court,
Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ

>
> Shaftesbury Housing Association is a charitable Industrial and

Provident Society No. 19574R and a member of the Sanctuary Housing
Group. www.shaftesburyhousing.org.uk

>
> Banbury Homes Housing Association Limited, trading as Banbury

Homes, is a charitable Industrial and Provident Society No. 27909R
and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member
of the Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House,
Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ
www.banburyhomes.org.uk

>
> Kingsmead Homes (Hackney) Limited is a company limited by guarantee

registered in England No. 3375788 and is a registered charity No.
1068684 and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a
member of Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary
House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ.
www.kingsmeadhomes.org.uk

>

This message is confidential and intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately. No warranty is given that attachments received are Virus-free, but messages are scanned for all viruses by Star Internet/MessageLabs. Any views expressed herein are not necessarily those of Sanctuary Housing Association or its subsidiaries or of Shaftesbury Housing Association or its subsidiaries. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ

Shaftesbury Housing Association is a charitable Industrial and Provident Society No. 19574R and a member of the Sanctuary Housing Group. www.shaftesburyhousing.org.uk

Banbury Homes Housing Association Limited, trading as Banbury Homes, is a charitable Industrial and Provident Society No. 27909R and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member of the Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ www.banburyhomes.org.uk

Kingsmead Homes (Hackney) Limited is a company limited by guarantee registered in England No. 3375788 and is a registered charity No. 1068684 and is a subsidiary of Shaftesbury Housing Association and a member of Sanctuary Housing Group. Registered office: Sanctuary House, Chamber Court, Castle Street, Worcester, WR1 3ZQ. www.kingsmeadhomes.org.uk

Paul,

>Very reminiscent of the E-train's attempt on the 150mph barrier.<

Add 5 mph to that......... <g>

We were aiming at 155, but with the heat of the day and the lack if time
caused by the two faulty fuel control units on #10 turbine we hadn't got
much chance really. Even with the late Ray Coleman doing his thing I doubt
we'd have made 155 even if we'd have gone all the way to Paddington. I'm
sure the last 0.3 mph were produced purely by the willpower of the team on
the train! <g>

Regards
Kit

See fotos section

MAX

Well I never,
When was this photo taken Max.....

Cheers

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "max.walrus"
<max.walrus@...> wrote:

>
> See fotos section
>
> MAX
>

Hi Paul

I did not record the dates of my fotos then

MAX

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
<PAUL@...> wrote:

>
> Well I never,
> When was this photo taken Max.....
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "max.walrus"
> <max.walrus@> wrote:
> >
> > See fotos section
> >
> > MAX
> >
>

I'm new to the group, so hi everyone!
This is a great grouo, from what i've seen so far, and i hope to be
posting and contributing a bit more soon!

One day, i will get to Crewe and York, too!!!!

Thanks, Damon!

Presumably this was 977527, ex 48204, scrapped in November 1989.

Jonathan

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "max.walrus"
<max.walrus@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Paul
>
> I did not record the dates of my fotos then
>
> MAX
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
> <PAUL@> wrote:
> >
> > Well I never,
> > When was this photo taken Max.....
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "max.walrus"
> > <max.walrus@> wrote:
> > >
> > > See fotos section
> > >
> > > MAX
> > >
> >
>

In May's edition of the RCTS The Railway Observer there is a photograph
of a 5 car APT in 1983. Previously the shortest formation I recall
seeing was a 6 car (i.e. two power cars)in February 1984 Railway
Magazine. And that means we have every justification to run the Hornby
5 car set just as it comes.

Having said that a 14 car set is just a little more impressive...

Jonathan

Hi All

I have been sent a recording of an APT-Ps air horns 'rescued' from CF
Booths.

See the files section for the mp3



Rob
www.apt-p.com

Attachments :

Hello All

Well its come to this has it. Lets throw the seats
away. What a bloddy shame. Imagine throwing the seat
away from the pullman car. No chance in hell. So if we
ever and I mean ever get the train into some state of
order well have a load of seats missing.

Cost £1000's to get them remade. All the good will in
the world does not make it right.

What a sad sad end to a train you may as well send the
lot to the scrap or a park to let kids play in.

THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN TO A STEAM TRAIN !!!!!!!!!!

Thanks all

Justin Colemabn
apt-p.info

--- Andrew Appleton <APT370@...> wrote:

> Taken from the wnxx forum:
> http://wnxx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7476
>
> "If anyone wants a complete apt passenger seat then
> for a donation to the centre you can have one, you
> will have to collect though otherwise they go to the
> scrapman. The pics below show a seatpad, headrest
> the apt seat subframes, the covers/cusions are with
> them too, there are 2 types, single and double
> seats!! Like i say pm me on here if you are
> interested, may well ebay an apt seat this week!! 1
> coach of the train is completly stripped now ready
> to be the kids party room, its going to have new
> flooring, carpet and dancefloor!!"
>
> "We are hoping to do stuff like put the buffet area
> back to its original state with replica 1980s food
> packaging on show, think maxpax coffee cups and
> marathon bars! We would also like copies of any pics
> people may have of the apt in service being built
> etc to put on display on the train itself, again
> over to you, pm me if you have any !"
>
> "We need the space to finally try and use the apt to
> get some money back with the kids parties and
> functions/conferences in the empty coach. As you can
> see its finding the space to store them would be the
> problem, its going to be a case of being cruel to be
> kind i think!!"