I seem to remember there is a D-I-S comparing APT-P with a class 87,
I'm away at the moment, but perhaps Andy Appleton can check his copy.

Rob
www.apt-p.com

Thanks,

To be perfectly honest I didin't click it could have been the POP train as a
matter of fact I didn't even know it was still knocking about in 1982! Does
the POP train still exist today?

Ian

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@...> wrote:

>
>Ian,
>
>Oh yes, I'm sure Kit will tell you everything you need to know when he
>returns from Itay, a little bird tells me he knows a thing or two about the
>POP train!!!!
>
>In the mean time, here's some photos of that " weird shaped red 'thing' "
>without it's skin...
>
>http://www.apt-e.org/kit/option1.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview

I can't say for certain,but I don't think the pop train exist any more.Though as one of coaches was a hasting line train car .it's possible that one of these has been preserved.

All 3 POP vehicles were scrapped at the RTC in October 1985.

Hastings is now at the Pump House Museum, Walthamstow - it
was sold by Hastings Diesels to the present owners.

Simon

James R Moody wrote:

> Please excuse the random untextured grey bits, and the random missing
> pieces, but here it is:
>
> http://www.vsr.org.uk/screenshots/forum/APT_NDM_06.jpg

And a couple of better pics...

http://www.vsr.org.uk/screenshots/quality/APT_NDM_01.jpg
http://www.vsr.org.uk/screenshots/quality/APT_NDM_02.jpg

Any comments, particularly on the shape?

James Moody
--
aka: Major Denis Bloodnok | (¯\
ICQ: 7000473 | \ \ /¯)
http://www.vsr.org.uk | \ \___/ /
No more can they keep us in | |/ _)| )
Listen, damn it, we will win | ( (|_| )
They see it right, they see it well | \ /
But they think this saves us from our hell | |====|

I'll have a look for it later, it's in a box somewhere in my atic!

Andy


- - - - - - - - - - -
Sent via BlackBerry
- - - - - - - - - - -


-----Original Message-----
From: "Rob Latham" <rob@...>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:06:02
To:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Tractive Effort Graph

I seem to remember there is a D-I-S comparing APT-P with a class 87,
I'm away at the moment, but perhaps Andy Appleton can check his copy.

Rob
www.apt-p.com







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi All

John Whitby has just sent me another picture of the POP + PILOT test
train taken on 5 August 1982.


See

http://www.apt-p.com/APTGalleryColourJPW.htm

(double click on the last picture to be taken to John's fotopic website
where a larger picture can be seen).


Rob
www.apt-p.com

I have just reinstated the APT Simulations page -

http://www.apt-p.com/APTSimulators.htm

But need screen shots of other programs ie RAIL3D BVE etc - could you
please email some to me.

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Advanced-Passenger-Train
group.

File : /APT-P performance curve.jpg
Uploaded by : apt_p <AndyAppleton@...>
Description : APT-P performance curve compared with Class 87

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/files/APT-P%20performance%20curve.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

apt_p <AndyAppleton@...>

Attachments :

> A TE vs Speed curve would be the holy grail

John Whitby's Fotopic site is well worth a look as it contains several
APT-P photos & many other BR little gems:

APT-P pics: http://www.johnwhitby.fotopic.net/c767656.html

Home page: http://www.johnwhitby.fotopic.net


Enjoy!
Andy

http://www.AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

Thanks Andy

I was right that a D-I-S existed ! - thanks for scanning it as I will
be away until the weekend.

Hope it's of some use to James.

Rob
www.apt-p.com



--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@...> wrote:

>
> > A TE vs Speed curve would be the holy grail
>
> Hi James,
>
> Is the attached any good?
>
> Andy
>

Andrew Appleton wrote:

> > A TE vs Speed curve would be the holy grail
>
> Is the attached any good?

Looks very good indeed - thanks :¬)

James Moody
--
aka: Major Denis Bloodnok | (¯\
ICQ: 7000473 | \ \ /¯)
http://www.vsr.org.uk | \ \___/ /
No more can they keep us in | |/ _)| )
Listen, damn it, we will win | ( (|_| )
They see it right, they see it well | \ /
But they think this saves us from our hell | |====|

> I was right that a D-I-S existed ! - thanks for scanning it

I didn't scan it as my scanner is on the blink - I took a photo of the
page with my digital camera, I'm thinking of photographing the entire
book!

Ian,

>Where did this derailment take place? Anyone know why the train derailed?
>Was there much damage?<

From memory this was the occasion that David Boocock was actually riding in
the vehicle that had the failed axle, but I can't remember where it was.
North of Preston I think.

When I get home I can find the details, but Hugh mentions it in 'The APT
Bible' as I recall. As Gerry says, the bolts on an HK brake axle failed as
they hadn't been torqued up enough and the axle broke in half! There were
no injuries and the train ran for quite a distance before David got it
stopped by hitting the Emergency button.

>What is that weird shaped red 'thing' in the top two photos? And was the
>other red coach taken from an APT set? Why was a test train still running
>when there were three sets 'on test/in service?' at the same time??<

Thing? THING?

That's not a 'thing', that's POP train!

In it's original form it was the first tilting vehicle in Europe, maybe the
world. Most of the pics in my collection on the E-Train site show it in
it's old open form, but there are a few showing it in it's MkII form with
the cladding added as in the pics you referenced.

POP II ran with P-Train bogies in 2 car form for a while before the
prototype P-Train trailer car was added to the consist some months later.
That P-Train car was indeed named 'Pilot', otherwise called Lab 8. POP II
ran with it's original Mk II tilt systems but PC4 also had an underslung Mk
IV system, as supplied for P-Train. 'Pilot' always had it's normal Mk IV
system installed.

PC4 could run in either mode, or, if I got the valves set wrongly, both of
them at once......!

I could fill in more details after I get home possibly.

Regards
Kit

Having staggered back from Italy at 3 am (!) this morning (Ciampino Airport
is a DUMP, don't ever go there!!!!) I can catch up with more interesting
things.

1) That P-Train derailment took place at 125 mph (!) and the only reason
David Boocock noticed it was he heard the ballast banging on the bottom of
the car, having been thrown up by the broken wheelset. The train was
stopped after David pulled the emergency handle, during which it traversed
at 1530 yd reverse curve.

It must have been post-1980 as it was the third P-Train that suffered the
fault, but no date or place is given, somewhat frustratingly. Note this was
pre-public debut, so only BR Staff were aboard, albeit some high ranking
ones apparently.

2) I thought the tractive effort info etc. was in the Brian Haresnape BR
Fleet Survey Book 5 but sadly I was mistaken, sorry. I know I've seen it
somewhere but can't recall where, so I'll keep digging.

3) Nonononononono. We're getting confused here with POP train, POP II,
Pilot and Hastings. The original POP Train was the unclad, 2-car test train
we built in 1970 and it ran in this form for a consderable time,
overlapping with E-Train for a long time and was shopped for conversion in
1976 (I think.............)

Hastings coach was never part of POP in any form, and always ran as a
separate test train with a match generator vehicle, usually Lab 10, to
provide electrical power and a buffer to non-tilting stock. POP II was I
described previously, running in 2 car form for a while before Pilot was
added to make a 3 car set.

As Simon says, POP (in clad form) was scrapped in an act of official
vandalism in 1985. A pity, as it had more significance than anyone realises
I'm sure. More than once I've suggested that a replica POP Train could be
built, after all it was only lengths of RHS welded up with some rudimentary
cabins added plus the cast steel counterweights. As usual, all it costs is
money..........

The Hastings coach does indeed still exist, and it's on display in the
Walthamstow Museum, also noted by Simon. I'm pleased to say I'm a part
owner of it, albeit for a nominal sum, and I was partly involved in it's
very 'last minute' escape from the St Leanards site. The people there were
going to scrap it less than 24hrs after we managed to get it out! I have
some pics of the state of it at that time, not a pretty sight! Maybe I
should post them somewhere?

Hastings is still on it's H4X bogies, but the tilt system is mostly
missing, but I could probably build a Mk III Tilt pack from memory <g> The
centre VIP compartment is still partly present but there is no sign of the
lab area. Worth a trip to just be able to walk through the only publically
accessable APT vehicle of the period.

Regards
Kit

Just found it on eBay £5 cheaper, £14.99 (+P&P):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9140110360


--- "Andrew Appleton" wrote:

> Released 29th May - E for Experimental - An account of the

development of British Rail's experimental Advanced Passenger Train
(APT) The film explains in simple terms some of the many novel
design features of the APT, including the tilt mechanism and the
hydro-kinetic brake, and shows the train in action during its
trials. Full details & order info at:

>
> http://www.bfi.org.uk/booksvideo/video/details/btf/dvd_3.html
>
> Take care,
> Andy
>
> http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

On 24 May 2006, at 9:48 am, Andrew Appleton wrote:

> Just found it on eBay £5 cheaper, £14.99 (+P&P):
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9140110360

Ebay is risky because of the poor quality bootlegs flying around and
dubious online traders with hazardous returns policies.

Why not buy it from a reputable online trader?

Bensons World are well respected and are offering the DVD for £12.82
and that includes free P&P !!!!

http://www.bensonsworld.co.uk/dvd/7000000112736.asp

It's your decision :-)

Nick

Many thanks for that link Nick, I haven't bought a copy yet so I'm glad you posted that info.

I've bought 100's of items from eBay without any problems, after checking the feedback of the person who's selling it on eBay I don't think I would have bought it from him/her, but as you quite rightly said “It's your decision :-)”

Take care,
Andy
(who's buying his copy from Bensons World)

http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

- - - - - - - - - - -
Sent via BlackBerry
- - - - - - - - - - -

I've just come across the following stamp from Bequia

see

http://www.apt-p.com/APTStamps.htm

Rob
www.apt-p.com

The picture was taken on the day Virgin unveiled the repainted APT-P -
but do you know who took the photo' ?

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Advanced-Passenger-Train
group.

File : /BequiaStamps.jpg
Uploaded by : aptp370 <rob@...>
Description : Bequia stamps inc APT-P

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/files/BequiaStamps.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

aptp370 <rob@...>

Hi all,
Im not sure if Rob has heard about this yet, but Softflare are no long
willing to host the P and E train sites, so Paul Fletcher (ex
softflare) is moving the hosting to his new company digitalwigwam.

The move is going to take place over the next few days so there maybe
time that the sites are down.

Please try again later and all should be well.

Regards

Paul
APT-E.ORG

I was aware of the problems as The Railway Age website is (was) also
hosted by Softflare and the domain name expired recently.

Paul (F) assures me that all the sites will be working normally
throughout the changeover.


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Hi All,
If there are any problems, it should only mean DNS hasnt updated, on
very busy days this has been known to take upto 6 hours, and often
does!

Regards

Paul

Hi All

I'd just like to take the time to publicly thank Paul Fletcher of
DIGITAL Wigwam for the continued support, by way of hosting both
WWW.APT-P.COM and WWW.APT-E.ORG and to wish him well with his new
venture.

Rob
www.apt-p.com

Hi all,
Yes, I would like to add my great thanks to Paul Fletcher for his
support with the APT sites, a very big thank you.

ROB,
Have you any details on how to access the new sites/email as Paul
doesnt have my details to contact me.

If you could mail my spare account, silver_dream_racer@...

Thanks

Paul

Hi All

I've just received the following query and wondered if anyone here
can help ??


Rob
www.apt-p.com


Good Afternoon Rob,

I work for Kingfisher Railtours (we own a rake of Mk 2 excursion
stock based at Old Oak Common in West London) and I am trying to find
out more information about our buffet car. What I do know is that it
was built in 1973 as a Mk 2f TSO but converted in 1974 to a prototype
self-service buffet for APT-P. It's original number was 5970 although
it has been better known as 1800 (the number it carries today.) We
also know it was sold to Northern Ireland Railways in 1983 (where it
was numbered NIR 546) and re-gauged to run in the Belfast - Dublin
Enterprise service for which it had a generator fitted to run all the
equipment in the kitchen.

After withdrawal it was purchased by the late Brian Pickett for his
embryonic Wessex Trains charter business and overhauled at
Lancastrian C&W in Heysham. It entered service on the UK main line
again during 2003 and now runs regularly for Kingfisher who bought
Wessex Trains in 2005.

Do you know anything about this vehicles use with the APT-P? It has
an interesting history and I'm trying to fill in as many of the gaps
as I can. I would like to put up an information panel about it's
history in the coach so any info you have would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance

Best regards



Iain Pate

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Latham" <rob@...> wrote:

> I work for Kingfisher Railtours (we own a rake of Mk 2 excursion
> stock based at Old Oak Common in West London) and I am trying to find
> out more information about our buffet car. What I do know is that it
> was built in 1973 as a Mk 2f TSO but converted in 1974 to a prototype
> self-service buffet for APT-P.

Here's an excerpt from "British Rail Mk 2 Coaches" (Michael Harris):

"With the catering facilities to be provided on the APT-Ps the principle was that first-class
passengers would receive at-seat service. In the second-class accommodation there
would be three or four galleys or small service-points for the service of light refreshments
to one or more adjacent vehicles; alternatively there might be a self-service buffet,
passengers returning to their seats having made their choices and paid for the items.

"During the summer of 1973 a mock-up of the proposed [APT-P] catering service point
was constructed, and authority was given ... for the conversion of an existing vehicle to
demonstrate the proposed arrangements. This would be tested in service ... in order to
simulate expected working conditions onboard APT. Another vehicle would also be
provided which would feature the self-service buffet. [...] Both experimental conversions
would involve Mk2f vehicles. The design of the catering section would simulate the
restricted cross-section of the APT body, and so the internal panels would slope inwards
towards the ceiling."

Paraphrasing: The 'galley' conversion was Mk2F TSO 5962: Two seat bays replaced by
kitchen and fridges (no counter). Tested in Oct 1974 from KX. (Later converted back to
standard TSO.) The 'self service buffet' was Mk2F 5970: Four seat bays replaced by
counter and display unit, food prep area, boiler and microwave. Entered service March
1975 on Euston-Glasgow services. Renumbered M1800 and remained a catering vehicle:
sold 1983 to NIR.

The chapter also has a couple of photos.

Hope that helps!

Owen

Hi All

I've just received the following query and wondered if anyone here
can help ??

Rob
www.apt-p.com

Good Afternoon Rob,

I work for Kingfisher Railtours (we own a rake of Mk 2 excursion
stock based at Old Oak Common in West London) and I am trying to find
out more information about our buffet car. What I do know is that it
was built in 1973 as a Mk 2f TSO but converted in 1974 to a prototype
self-service buffet for APT-P. It's original number was 5970 although
it has been better known as 1800 (the number it carries today.) We
also know it was sold to Northern Ireland Railways in 1983 (where it
was numbered NIR 546) and re-gauged to run in the Belfast - Dublin
Enterprise service for which it had a generator fitted to run all the
equipment in the kitchen.

After withdrawal it was purchased by the late Brian Pickett for his
embryonic Wessex Trains charter business and overhauled at
Lancastrian C&W in Heysham. It entered service on the UK main line
again during 2003 and now runs regularly for Kingfisher who bought
Wessex Trains in 2005.

Do you know anything about this vehicles use with the APT-P? It has
an interesting history and I'm trying to fill in as many of the gaps
as I can. I would like to put up an information panel about it's
history in the coach so any info you have would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance

Best regards



Iain Pate

--
This email has been verified as Virus free
Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

Second attempt to post this.

When did Yahoo wreck the system to reply to msgs NOT read on the web site?
And why?????

Why don't they just LEAVE WELL ALONE? It worked just fine before thanks and
I really don't need '....a better experience...' grrrrrrrrrrrr

Regards
Kit

--------------------------

Gerry,

>I wonder if they went to the trouble of installing a false internal

profile! Probably not if it still retains the same layout.<

I have an idea they did.

I'm sure I've seen a pic somewhere of the interrior of the car and you
could see two sets of windows at different angles to one another. I can't
imagine them building just a mockup with a standard external shape, so I
assumed it was built inside a MkIII or similar. It seems it was actually a
MkII though.

Amazing it still exists.

Regards
Kit

I agree 100% with your comments Kit, as a matter of fact I voiced my
concerns to Yahoo last week regarding the so called "enancements" = rubbish!

Yahoo encourage feedback so please feel free to let them know what you
think of the new changes:

http://surveylink.yahoo.com/wix/p1412899.aspx

Anyway, I have opted to set all of my groups back to the "Traditional"
settings. This may be done by logging in to Yahoo! Groups, selecting the
relevant group and clicking "Edit Membership". At the bottom there should
be and option to receive messages in "Traditional" or "Fully Featured". Once
saved it may take a few hours to take effect.

Take care,
Andy

http://www.AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kit Spackman"

> When did Yahoo wreck the system to reply to msgs NOT read on the web site?
> And why?????
>
> Why don't they just LEAVE WELL ALONE? It worked just fine before thanks
> and
> I really don't need '....a better experience...' grrrrrrrrrrrr

Hi all,
A few years ago, someone posted a short video clip of E train rounding
Derby curve (I think) with a voice over saying something like (another
train tested in the midlands was British rails Advanced Passenger
Train), has anyone got a copy of this still.

It stands out as a little odd, because as PC2 rounds the curve, the
nearside steps are down.

Does anyone remember this clip being posted, or am I just going mad
(waiting for Locomotion to get a workshop)!!!

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon

Paul,

>It stands out as a little odd, because as PC2 rounds the curve, the

nearside steps are down.<

Odd? That's not odd, it was almost Standard Operational E-Train Procedure!
<G>

Mind you it wasn't MEANT to be, but it just happened with monotonous
regularity. And yes, I do remember that clip, not sure if I have it filed
away somewhere though.

Regards
Kit

Hi Andy,
Sadly, the video footage I was thinking off, isnt part of the ITN
stuff, although, its interesting to see I am now part of the Archive.

I think the clip in questions was something to do with
Experimental/Prototype locos, if only I could remember.

Regard

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@...> wrote:

>
> Just been browsing through the APT related news articles in the

ITN archives:

>
> http://www.itnarchive.com/search/?

sumsent=3&sumchar=500&q_words_all=&Submit=Search&q_words_any=&q_words
_exact=Advanced+Passenger+Train&q_not_words_all=&q_date_period_type=a
ll&q_ago_period=&q_year_range=&date_from_day=1&date_from_month=1&date
_from_year=2006&date_to_day=1&date_to_month=1&date_to_year=2006&sort=
Date&df=ISO&numresults=25&databasematch=ITN&databasematch=GranadaProg
s&databasematch=Airtime&databasematch=Channel4&checkall=all&databasem
atch=4learning&databasematch=IOW&databasematch=LNNNews&databasematch=
FoxNews&databasematch=FoxMovietone

>
> (if the link doesn't work simply copy & paste it into your browser)
>
>
> Andy
>
> http://www.AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net
>

On 18 Jun 2006, at 10:37, Paul Leadley wrote:

> Hi all,
> A few years ago, someone posted a short video clip of E train rounding
> Derby curve (I think) with a voice over saying something like (another
> train tested in the midlands was British rails Advanced Passenger
> Train), has anyone got a copy of this still.
>
> It stands out as a little odd, because as PC2 rounds the curve, the
> nearside steps are down.
>
> Does anyone remember this clip being posted, or am I just going mad
> (waiting for Locomotion to get a workshop)!!!
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group, Locomotion, Shildon

From 'Classic Railway Newsreels" video by Video 125.

Nick

Just had these words of thanks from Iain about the buffet mock-up


Rob
www.apt-p.com


Hi Rob,

Thanks again.

The interior of the kitchen area is very much as built and it is
built to the false internal profile of an APT Buffet Car. On one of
my early tours with this vehicle we had a gentleman come and talk to
us who had worked in it on test with BR. He told us the catering
staff had a high regard for the layout, there was good ventilation,
plenty of room and it was a comfortable working environment. He said
that the Buffet was much praised by all who worked in it.

Unfortunately at some stage the air conditioning system seems to have
been disconnected and we're currently looking at options to restore
it as the coach is extremely hot on hot summer days.

It is an interesting vehicle though, I'll get some 'photos next week
when I'm getting it ready for our next tour and send them to you.

Many thanks for your help.

Best regards



Iain

Hi all,
Thanks Kit and Nick,

As I remember the camera was track side as E train slowly rounds the
bend. The voice over man saying, it really is a train built for speed,
as she goes past the camera at 15 mph, LOL.

Cheers

Paul

For anyone who cannot get to Crewe:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=53.094182~-2.436192&style=a&lvl=18&scene=4254538

 

Well after seeing the ATP-P from the air it got me thinking. What if
the images of the NRM had'nt been updated, surely enough i found the
ATP-E sitting outside still but with one of the power cars under cover.

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=jork~york&cp=53.958794~-1.098775&style=a&lvl=19&scene=4254538&sp=aN.szs00mgx8rcn_York%252c%2520England%252c%2520United%2520Kingdom___~aN.szstj7gx7kss_Untitled%2520pushpin___

>Well after seeing the ATP-P from the air it got me thinking. What if
>the images of the NRM had'nt been updated, surely enough i found the
>ATP-E sitting outside still but with one of the power cars under cover.>

Ahah, I bet Paul could date that photo almost to the day! <g>

That was taken when the Support Group was at it's most active, probably
with large parts of the PC-2 roof off for re-rivetting etc. It's
pre-repaint for sure, you can even see the 'washed-out' look of PC-1 and
TC-1 in the photo.

Regards
Kit

Hi all,
Yep, sure can Kit, looking throught the support group pictures, the
position of E train, the coaches and wagons round and about, the state
of e trains paintwork, I would say it was taken on or around the 23rd
August 2003. Its has to be the Saturday or Sunday because I wasnt at
work, my bike isnt in my parking place at York College.

The railings on the platform next to E train havent been completed so
at has to be around that date, most likely the Sunday, as the support
group isnt working on her.

Regards

Paul

Paul,

>I would say it was taken on or around the 23rd August 2003. Its has to be

the Saturday or >Sunday because I wasnt at work, my bike isnt in my
parking place at York College. <

Hehehe, can't you get closer than that? <g>

Nice one, I knew you could do it.

Regards
Kit

Oh, I forgot, due to the date and the position of the shadows on the
ground, it must be late afternoon, LOL.

HAHAHAHAHA, is that better Kit.

Regards

Paul

Well it's six years to the date since I founded this group & 2153
messages later the group is still going strong.

Many thanks for supporting the group!

Long live the APT...
Andy

My gosh, 6 years.

Thanks Andy for all your support to the APT, you have our thanks.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Can someone tell me the basic dimensions (length, width and height) of
an APT-E Powercar

cheers,
James