--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Ellis" <ianellis_68@h...> wrote:

> I personally reckon the AC Loco Group would love to have the APT in their
> collection

I think we've got enough on our plate just now!

<dream>Would be nice to have all the preserved 25kV traction items under cover in an
electrified museum, though...</dream>

Owen

http://www.aclocogroup.org.uk/

----- Original Message -----

From: Owen Hodgson

<dream>Would be nice to have all the preserved 25kV traction items under cover in an electrified museum, though...</dream>

I do not really care who owns the APT_P so long as they look after her, make
available for the public, and ideally get her running!

--
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Andy how did you do these, whats the software, I could use this for a
project of my own :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andy Appleton
Sent: 09 November 2005 18:25
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: APT-P in Virgin Livery?

APT in Virgin livery:

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p22585435.html


APT-P in reversed BR Blue/Grey (as on HST prototype, and similar to
APT-E):

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p22585434.html


Enjoy!
Andy

http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net









Yahoo! Groups Links









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All

During my lunch break today I thought I would read the piece by Prof
Wickens on Rob's Website.

I was interested in the review in the early 1970s where BR
questioned whether the P-Train design was aviable proposition as per
the full spec. In the words of Prof Wickens, there was a fine
balance but the full spec emerged in tact.

I was surprised by this given the risk involved. It would have
probably been far more sensible to go for a slightly lower top speed
with one uprated power car in push pull formation. (Given the
situation of the power cars because of panto uplift and high power
cables etc not to mention the signalling and lightweight catenary it
seems crazy they continued with the design.)

I guess that BR would have had to better the HST top speed
presentationally but has anyone (I look to Kit again!) got any idea
on the permissible maximum top speed of an 8 car articulated train
with one power car and high performance disk brakes taking into
account signalling restrictions? I know the most obvious thought
here is IC225, but APT was a lightweight train - would 130-140 mph
been possible within the constraints of the railway at that time? (I
ask about disk brakes as the HK brake proved to be a major headache
according to Prof Wickens)

On another theme, could the C-APT system not have been modified to
provide in cab signalling to allow higher speed?

It all seems as though if the decision had gone the other way for a
lower maximum service speed coupled with more conventional disk
brakes, APT might have made it into regular service.

Any thoughts?

Simon Argyle
APT-E Conservation and Support Group (NRM permitting!)

Hello All,
Interesting view Simon.

Its interesting to note, that when myself and Kit spoke to David
Bocock last year, one of the things he did mention was that never
before P train had been constructed, they knew its top service speed
would have to be 125 mph. It would appear that nobody had faith in
the HK brakes but nothing else at that time had the energy extraction
range that the HK brakes had.

If you look at the history of the HST, the disc brakes have always
been problematic, due to the discs cracking and warping, that still
happens to this day. Due to articulation and a heavy axel weight,
discs brakes I think would have proved even more unreliable than the
HK brakes. Moving APT back to un-articulated would have solved this
problem but of cource that would increased the train weight. Mk 4
coaches just couldn't operate if ther were articulated for this reason.

If my memory serves correctly, Rob should be able correct me or not,
plans were already in had to covert or fresh build powercars as like
the Class 91 for push pull use, Im sure if that had gone ahead, the
APT would have been more viable to the mass multi route market.

As it is, all we can do is say, what if, only what if.

As a side note, its interesting to note that the NRM display details
for E train are all incorrect, they says its max speed was 143 mph and
a host of other incorrect stuff. Ive tried to get them to correct it,
and also state that E train is still Britains faster none electric
train.

Im sure Kit will have something to say about these subjects.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Brian,

These 'excellent' livery applications weren't done by me, I only
supplied the original image, so I can't answer your question - sorry!

Andy

http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net


"Brian Johnson Pianos" wrote:

Andy how did you do these, whats the software, I could use this for a
project of my own :-)

Would you Adam and Eve it – there is another "Mega Rare" "The APT
Story" VHS Video for sale on eBay! See item number 6015392488.

Just like my local bus service... you wait ages for 1 and 2 turn up at the
same time !

Here's the proper URL:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6015392488

Current bid �205 with 7 days to go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ian

--- "Alan" wrote:

>Would you Adam and Eve it � there is another "Mega Rare" "The APT Story"
>VHS Video for sale on eBay! See item number 6015392488.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger 7.5 is now out. Download it for FREE here.
http://messenger.msn.co.uk

http://trains.and.transport.fotopic.net/p23177935.html

http://trains.and.transport.fotopic.net/p23177934.html

http://trains.and.transport.fotopic.net/p23177936.html

http://trains.and.transport.fotopic.net/p23177938.html

http://trains.and.transport.fotopic.net/p23177937.html

http://trains.and.transport.fotopic.net/p3922269.html

very nice,
Ian

_________________________________________________________________
Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

Photo link below; I'm sure the trees must be causing unnecessary damage to
the APT at Crewe or maybe the railway age just want to hide it - out of
sight out of mind?

http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p6999675.html

What do you think?

Ian

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger 7.5 is now out. Download it for FREE here.
http://messenger.msn.co.uk

http://photos.m-t-p.org.uk/p11638263.html

http://photos.m-t-p.org.uk/p11640324.html

http://neilevans7744.fotopic.net/p23246190.html

http://neilevans7744.fotopic.net/p23243272.html

http://bluecont.fotopic.net/c690601.html

http://davestraintravels.fotopic.net/

http://david6769.fotopic.net/p18456308.html

http://mirfield-mpd.fotopic.net/p9374425.html

http://mirfield-mpd.fotopic.net/p9374426.html

http://ncrp.fotopic.net/p4945195.html

http://andrew-hadley.fotopic.net/c424136_25.html

http://kmr3061.fotopic.net/p18107608.html

http://davestraintravels.fotopic.net/c504884.html

http://david4010.fotopic.net/p16490449.html

http://monkeysnaps3.fotopic.net/p15355919.html

http://kmr3061.fotopic.net/p18929984.html

_________________________________________________________________
Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

Great shots,
Love the ones of E train in Thrall, thing is, I was there and me and
Kit are in the photos, not sure who took them, but well done.

Regards

Paul

Hi all

I am not sure if anybody can help given the prices that the APT video
went for the other week, but i am looking for a (copy) of any APT
videos that have been done over the years, I am not sure on the
legality of asking of such on the web, so if you could kindly contact
me off list, I will pay somebody for this type of material, oh and I
may have an interesting APT service manual that I can copy for someone
that can help me.

Thanks people

tom

Tom

just a friendly note to inform you that your request is illegal and
against the rules of this group.

The price of that video on eBay suprised us all ! The good news is that
E For Experimental will be available from the BFI in the spring of 2006.


Best wishes


Rob Latham
(Group moderator)

On 5 Dec 2005, at 10:30 am, Rob Latham wrote:

> just a friendly note to inform you that your request is illegal and
> against the rules of this group.
>
> The price of that video on eBay suprised us all ! The good news is
> that
> E For Experimental will be available from the BFI in the spring of
> 2006.

I would also like to offer friendly advise - people with close links
with the copyright holders - the British Film Institute - are also
railway enthusiasts and are members of several yahoo groups (hint hint).

Why do you think E For Experimental is getting a sparkling DVD release?

'Pirating' such films will genuinely jeopardise future releases. MGM,
Universal, etc are big enough to take a hit on their expensive
productions due to the sheer volumes they shift. Niche titles like
British Transport Films can not.

The more we buy - through the proper channels - the more will be
justified for future release.

Best wishes to all.

Nick
www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk

Hi All
I was the person who purchased The APT Story on ebay for £205 a bargin in my
eyes and a nice Xmas bonus for the seller no doubt!
Ive been trying to get hold of the vid for many many years now

----- Original Message -----
From: "heyshammorecamberailway" <heyshammorecamberailway@...>
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 2:53 PM
Subject: <APT Group> apt videos/ film footage anyone? contact me off list if
you can help!


> Hi all
>
> I am not sure if anybody can help given the prices that the APT video
> went for the other week, but i am looking for a (copy) of any APT
> videos that have been done over the years, I am not sure on the
> legality of asking of such on the web, so if you could kindly contact
> me off list, I will pay somebody for this type of material, oh and I
> may have an interesting APT service manual that I can copy for someone
> that can help me.
>
> Thanks people
>
> tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi all,
Just a quick note to say, copyright in this country lasts for 30 years
(only) so if BTF havent re-copyrighted there productions then they
become public domain. Just been looking through the laws regarding
copyright.

Note : I do not support piracy in any form, just thourght it was an
interesting fact.

Interesting! Very!

Regards

Paul

>Why do you think E For Experimental is getting a sparkling DVD release?

EXCELLENT! Is 'A round trip to Glasgow' getting a sparkling DVD release? It
would be a great shame if not.

Ian

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN Search Toolbar now includes Desktop search!
http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@A...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
> Just a quick note to say, copyright in this country lasts for 30 years
> (only)

If anyone wants to see the full details of UK copyright law, the Patent Office website at
http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/ is a wealth of information, as is the Government's own
Intellectual Property website at http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk . Both disagree
with the 30 years mentioned above, however.

The following is a quote from
http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/faq/copyright/how_long.htm

"How long does copyright last?

"...in general, the terms of protection in the UK are as follows:

"Copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work lasts for the life of the author
and 70 years from the end of the year in which he/she died.

"Copyright in a film expires 70 years after the end of the year in which the death occurs of
the last to survive of the principal director, the authors of the screenplay and dialogue,
and the composer of any music specially created for the film.

"Copyright in a sound recording expires 50 years from the end of the year in which it was
made or, if published in this time, 50 years from the end of the year of publication. If not
published during that 50 year period, but it is played in public or communicated to the
public during that period, 50 years from the first of these to happen.

"Copyright in a broadcast expires 50 years from the end of the year of making of the
broadcast.

"Copyright in a published edition expires 25 years from the end of the year in which the
edition was first published.

"The term of protection is particularly complicated for photographs taken before 1 January
1996."


See also http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/definition.htm for a full definition.

Owen

On 6 Dec 2005, at 9:14 am, Ian Ellis wrote:

>> Why do you think E For Experimental is getting a sparkling DVD
>> release?
>
> EXCELLENT! Is 'A round trip to Glasgow' getting a sparkling DVD
> release? It
> would be a great shame if not.

A great shame it is then!

Pity as they would have gone so well together.

Nick

Hello Nick,

Do you know why are BTF are only releasing 'E for experimental on DVD' & not
'A round trip to Glasgow'?

Ian

_________________________________________________________________
Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

Pity about 'A round trip to Glasgow' not being released as I know a lot of
people would love to own 'The APT Story' on DVD, I know a lot of people who
would love to own it on video too as it's so rare.

A mate of mine has just bought a new DVD player/recorder and he can connect
it to his video so he can create a DVD from a VHS tape - 'The APT Story' on
DVD is possible - we (the APT group) could have sold it to raise funds to
get the APT-P under cover/indoors or for the APT-E restoration project.
Obviously we can't do this (and won't) if it's still copyrighted so I'll
just have to dream on....

It would be great if BTF would release 'The APT Story' on DVD = hint hint.

Ian

_________________________________________________________________
Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

On 6 Dec 2005, at 9:35 am, Ian Ellis wrote:

> Do you know why are BTF are only releasing 'E for experimental on
> DVD' & not
> 'A round trip to Glasgow'?

The BFI issued 9 VHS volumes of British Transport Film compilations -
none of which included the APT films.

The full list is here...

http://www.bfi.org.uk/booksvideo/video/details/btf

These are all digitally re-mastered - at considerable cost because
the BFI is committed to the highest quality of source material -
from the best prints available. Some of the more popular titles -
Elizabethan Express, Train Time, etc are available on several other
VHS compilations and one or two have been transferred to DVD. None of
these 3rd party releases have been digitally remastered or enhanced
with many having been sourced from old or 'tired' prints. They were
simply chucked out as is from existing transfers.

If you compare the 'Locomotion, Rail & Snow' trilogy of Geoffrey
Jones produced BTF films from the tired old VHS release and then view
the re-mastered and restored DVD from the BFI - the difference in
quality is simply stunning!

To make the new DVD sets appealing to those already in possession of
some or all of the tapes - as well as the attraction of the higher
definition and quality of DVD - extra films were included on the DVDs
which were not previously released by the BFI.

These extras cost a lot of money to produce and the selected titles
must be justified. It was recognised by the producers that the APT
was still generating considerable interest amongst certain
enthusiasts and 'E for Experimental' was included in the programme
because of this.

It must be realised that the BFI must make a return on its
considerable investment and there are other niche groups than people
like us who are interested in APT to consider. 'Wires Over The
Border' is a far more historically important and critically acclaimed
film than RTtG and I think the decision to include it will be warmly
applauded - especially when those that have yet to see it, do so.

Let's be grateful that EfE was included and will look stunning when
released - I wasn't expecting it to even be in the running and am
thrilled it is!

'Round Trip' may well be included on a future DVD release, but I
doubt it will be for some considerable time if ever.

Regards

Nick

On 6 Dec 2005, at 9:48 am, Ian Ellis wrote:

> Pity about 'A round trip to Glasgow' not being released as I know a
> lot of
> people would love to own 'The APT Story' on DVD, I know a lot of
> people who
> would love to own it on video too as it's so rare.
>
> A mate of mine has just bought a new DVD player/recorder and he can
> connect
> it to his video so he can create a DVD from a VHS tape - 'The APT
> Story' on
> DVD is possible - we (the APT group) could have sold it to raise
> funds to
> get the APT-P under cover/indoors or for the APT-E restoration
> project.
> Obviously we can't do this (and won't) if it's still copyrighted so
> I'll
> just have to dream on....
>
> It would be great if BTF would release 'The APT Story' on DVD =
> hint hint.

There is nothing to stop any group licensing films from the BFI/NFTVA
and creating a DVD release of their own.

But this would be very expensive in terms of sourcing, hiring,
mastering, duplicating and licensing the use of original prints.

BCL Video couldn't sell the APT Story on video - and with people now
owning DVD recorders as previous posters have (riskily) alluded to,
what makes you think it would sell in sufficient volumes now?

Sadly (and predictably), demand in the enthusiast market is for
cheaply produced videos showing endless processions of contemporary
trains shot from the end of a platform. The market is awash with
these as TV quality camera equipment and capable editing software on
a standard PC has never been more affordable.

British Transport Films were professionally produced and crafted
documentary programmes, but because they didn't show continual train
movements and had musical scores and informative commentary instead
of 'thrash', they don't sell in the volume that you might think apart
from only a handful of films that naturally appealed to enthusiasts -
and these were done to death ages ago!

E For Experimental is a wonderful record of the APT-E programme, but
only the dedicated could watch it without become quickly bored of H-K
brake schematics, test jigs and assembly line shots!

Regards

Nick

Why not contact BTF and see if they'd give you a limited license for x
number of DVDs? Or if they'd be interested in marketing some of the copies
you make, perhaps in return for 'free' distribution of the others, or a
'cut' of the revenue specifically for preservation/restoration of P or E?

Much depends upon their perception of how 'valuable' a re-issue of the whole
"APT Story" would be *to them*. A case could be made that a few DVDs to an
enthusiast group isn't enough of a market for them to run the whole
production, but significant enough that a few dollars in licensing would be
sufficient. (Of course, if they'll be 'dog-in-the-manger', or want inflated
rarity prices for the license alone, there might be trouble, but I think it
would be worth it to, at least, try...)

----- Original Message -----

From: Nick Wheat

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:51 AM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: apt videos/ film footage anyone? contact me off list if you

On 6 Dec 2005, at 9:35 am, Ian Ellis wrote:

> Do you know why are BTF are only releasing 'E for experimental on 
> DVD' & not
> 'A round trip to Glasgow'?

The BFI issued 9 VHS volumes of British Transport Film compilations - 
none of which included the APT films.

The full list is here...

http://www.bfi.org.uk/booksvideo/video/details/btf

These are all digitally re-mastered - at considerable cost because 
the BFI is committed to the highest quality of source material  - 
from the best prints available. Some of the more popular titles - 
Elizabethan Express, Train Time, etc are available on several other 
VHS compilations and one or two have been transferred to DVD. None of 
these 3rd party releases have been digitally remastered or enhanced 
with many having been sourced from old or 'tired' prints. They were 
simply chucked out as is from existing transfers.

If you compare the 'Locomotion, Rail & Snow' trilogy of Geoffrey 
Jones produced BTF films from the tired old VHS release and then view 
the re-mastered and restored DVD from the BFI - the difference in 
quality is simply stunning!

To make the new DVD sets appealing to those already in possession of 
some or all of the tapes - as well as the attraction of the higher 
definition and quality of DVD - extra films were included on the DVDs 
which were not previously released by the BFI.

These extras cost a lot of money to produce and the selected titles 
must be justified. It was recognised by the producers that the APT 
was still generating considerable interest amongst certain 
enthusiasts and 'E for Experimental' was included in the programme 
because of this.

It must be realised that the BFI must make a return on its 
considerable investment and there are other niche groups than people 
like us who are interested in APT to consider. 'Wires Over The 
Border' is a far more historically important and critically acclaimed 
film than RTtG and I think the decision to include it will be warmly 
applauded - especially when those that have yet to see it, do so.

Let's be grateful that EfE was included and will look stunning when 
released - I wasn't expecting it to even be in the running and am 
thrilled it is!

'Round Trip' may well be included on a future DVD release, but I 
doubt it will be for some considerable time if ever.

Regards

Nick

Hm, the source I was reading from was the UK Law society corporate
sales laws, a copy of which most librarys have a copy, they say 30
years as of 2001, so Im not sure who to believe.

Either way, it isnt good news for a re-release of the APT Story.

Im sure BTF and Ian Allen both want to make money, and the APT sadly
isnt the way to do that, dispite the hundreds of people still
interested in it.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Owen Hodgson"
<owen@a...> wrote:

>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"

<PAUL@A...> wrote:

> >
> > Hi all,
> > Just a quick note to say, copyright in this country lasts for 30

years

> > (only)
>
> If anyone wants to see the full details of UK copyright law, the

Patent Office website at

> http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/ is a wealth of information, as is

the Government's own

> Intellectual Property website at http://www.intellectual-

property.gov.uk . Both disagree

> with the 30 years mentioned above, however.
>
> The following is a quote from
> http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/faq/copyright/how_long.htm
>
> "How long does copyright last?
>
> "...in general, the terms of protection in the UK are as follows:
>
> "Copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work lasts

for the life of the author

> and 70 years from the end of the year in which he/she died.
>
> "Copyright in a film expires 70 years after the end of the year in

which the death occurs of

> the last to survive of the principal director, the authors of the

screenplay and dialogue,

> and the composer of any music specially created for the film.
>
> "Copyright in a sound recording expires 50 years from the end of

the year in which it was

> made or, if published in this time, 50 years from the end of the

year of publication. If not

> published during that 50 year period, but it is played in public

or communicated to the

> public during that period, 50 years from the first of these to

happen.

>
> "Copyright in a broadcast expires 50 years from the end of the

year of making of the

> broadcast.
>
> "Copyright in a published edition expires 25 years from the end of

the year in which the

> edition was first published.
>
> "The term of protection is particularly complicated for

photographs taken before 1 January

> 1996."
>
>
> See also http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/definition.htm for a full

definition.

>
> Owen
>

>Why do you think E For Experimental is getting a sparkling DVD release?<

I must have missed something here.......

Is my AFWUL purple, black and white kipper tie being transfered for
posterity onto DVD? Mary will die laughing.......

Regards
Kit

Hi kit,
Your tie will be high res for all the world to see, nice!

Mr Tilt in full flow.

Regards

Paul

On 7 Dec 2005, at 8:43 am, Paul Leadley wrote:

> Hi kit,
> Your tie will be high res for all the world to see, nice!

And DVD players have a 'zoom in' facility :-)

Nick

Hi,

I can confirm for you that Copyright exists in all BTF films - it was
renewed by the bfi around 1999. I am also under the impression that the LT
Museum and other respective holders of BTF material also renewed their hold
on these films at the same time. Pre BTF railway company films are also well
protected and highly treasured by their rights owners.

I have never heard of a 30 year rule for film copyright? - 70 years after
the death of the last surviving contributor is the rule that my legal team
advise is current. But then you can renew that anyway and it all starts over
again.

EforE was chosen over RTTG as Round Trip is a rather disappointing film. The
budget was pulled on the film half way through and the end just drops off to
nothing - it was produced very half hearted as the unit never really knew
when the APT was actually going to enter service. The main film was shot
several years before it was actually released. Like some other highly sought
after titles - they are rare because they are not very good. The spin off -
of course, is everybody quite rightly wants to be the judge of that
themselves. There is a case to release Round Trip and I will try to
programme it in the future although as Nick says - that will be a while as
the films have to appeal and I have to justify every title with a good cross
sectional mix of films. The plain truth is there are not hundreds of APT
fans out there so I cannot swamp a release with APT. There are not many
hundreds of first generation electric fans either - I wish there were more!

I am a railway enthusiast (although I am a film man first) and I have a
great sympathy for both the APT and AC Electrics. (sorry Owen - I never
renewed my membership - I will do!) I always try to put an Electric element
in the releases - Wires Over the Border had to win for Volume Three though!
Long live the 87's!

Regards to all,
Steve Foxon.
BFI BTF Producer.

With all the talk about an APT DVD, I thought the group might like to
know about the release we're planning at Nova Home Video.

"The Story of the APT" is to be a comprehensive look at the APT
history, with archive footage, interviews and new footage all working
to detail this broken dream.

The intention is to include archive footage - so I'm looking to the
group for any video footage you may have of the APT in action...

Also, I'm in talks with various archive libraries in using news footage
of both APT's - but this is a hugely difficult area, and may end up
costing too much - we'll see...

I'm interested in hearing from anyone who might be able to help with
this project, which is rather a labour of love than a money-making
venture.

Andrew White
www.novahomevideo.co.uk

Hey guys - just another favour to ask...

Am on my final chapter now, regarding the intervention of the
government and the media. If anyone has any comments or information
they feel I should know regarding the government and the media in
terms of the APT-P, please contact me. Obviously, you will be fully
referenced as part of my project.

Thanks for your help,

Ben Goodwin

> I can confirm for you that Copyright exists in all BTF films - it was
> renewed by the bfi around 1999. I am also under the impression that the LT
> Museum and other respective holders of BTF material also renewed their
> hold
> on these films at the same time.

I'm intrigued as to how copyright can be "renewed". In this country it has
always been automatic - you need do nothing to obtain copyright - it is a
right, and as you say, persists for 70 years. Is there a process by which
you can extend it?

Cheers, Howard.

Hi all,
This is gonna course a stink but.........

If you feel there is no case to re-produce most APT material, why
spend money and time updating the copyright.

It would appear that is a case, we dont won't you to see this.

Maybe just my view, but if material, of which I still stand by my
first research of 30 years, because the rules seem to be 6 of one
and half a dozen of the other go out of copyright, why cannot people
have copies, as long as they are not sold.

Red tape is all I can say, Im just glad Ive collected "ORIGIONAL"
apt material so I can get to watch them.

Even after the APT has gone, its still wrapped up in red tape.

Regards

Paul

Well said Paul!

Andy
(Group Owner)

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@...>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:33:06
To:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: BTF APT The law and Copyright.

Hi all,
This is gonna course a stink but.........

If you feel there is no case to re-produce most APT material, why
spend money and time updating the copyright.

It would appear that is a case, we dont won't you to see this.

Maybe just my view, but if material, of which I still stand by my
first research of 30 years, because the rules seem to be 6 of one
and half a dozen of the other go out of copyright, why cannot people
have copies, as long as they are not sold.

Red tape is all I can say, Im just glad Ive collected "ORIGIONAL"
apt material so I can get to watch them.

Even after the APT has gone, its still wrapped up in red tape.

Regards

Paul









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On 7 Dec 2005, at 21:33, Paul Leadley wrote:

> Hi all,
> This is gonna course a stink but.........
>
> If you feel there is no case to re-produce most APT material, why
> spend money and time updating the copyright.
>
> It would appear that is a case, we dont won't you to see this.

The copyright holder can still license clips from its holdings - which
is a very lucrative market - to documentary and TV producers.

BTF is small fry compared to Pathé, Movietone, ITN, etc, etc - most of
their holdings may never be seen again.

But someone has to pay for storage when the other clips are licensed.

Nick

Thats correct, but as already been said, nobody is interested in
APT, apart from us, so the main reason for holding onto the
copyright has to be , not for cash value, again red tape. They
cannot have it both ways. ITN have thousands of feet of rushes, but
will not release a single shot, all that material going to waste.

It still boils down to, if they think nobday wants to see the
material, then why re-copyright it. I wrote and co-wrote several
Commodore 64 best sellers during the 1980s, and I was asked some
time ago if I would release them into PD, of which I did as I
thought nobody would be interested in them. Im just glad people
still play them on the retro gaming market.

Anyway, it doesnt really cost for digital storage now a days.

If they want to copyright again, they should use them.

Regards

Paul

On 8 Dec 2005, at 8:55 am, Paul Leadley wrote:

> Thats correct, but as already been said, nobody is interested in
> APT, apart from us, so the main reason for holding onto the
> copyright has to be , not for cash value, again red tape. They
> cannot have it both ways. ITN have thousands of feet of rushes, but
> will not release a single shot, all that material going to waste.

ITN will release as much as you want but it will cost so many pounds
per feet of film used!!

The track safety films from the 1970s are as obsolete as the APT
footage but clips from 'Robbie' are to be used in a forthcoming TV
documentary on childrens film (being made by Endomol for the 30
something nostalgia market). That is just one example from one BTF
film still being used in 2005!! How many other documentaries are
being produced worldwide? millions of productions from thousands of
comapnies - all needing footage.

Video 125, Transport Video Publishing - all have produced several
videos of trains using clips from these sources - ITN, Movietone,
Pathé. They are being used!!!!

That's how archives work - supply footage. But it all cost money.
Without fees, the archives go bust and the system of providing clips
to media companies dies with them.

> Anyway, it doesnt really cost for digital storage now a days.

Anyone who junks tangible film in favour of 1s and 0s is asking for
trouble!

People who back up their digital photos on CD-Rom will be getting a
nasty shock when they want to look at them in 5 years time, I assure
you. I backed up to branded CDs a few years ago and already the media
has failed (BASF if you want to avoid my misfortune), losing the work
which took hours and hours to create. Instead of a work archive, I
got silver coasters.

> If they want to copyright again, they should use them.

They are - 9 VHS volumes and 3 DVD double disc collections have
already been released or are scheduled for release but the BFI cannot
flood the market with 1000 different film titles (many of which are
rather tiresome by today's standards) at once to a market comprising
a minute amount of people.

Let's be real, people!

I'm as eager to get BTF stuff into the market place as anyone but I'm
also realistic as to how the system works.

It may be flawed but it's all we have!

Nick

Hi Nick,
As a very highly trained IT guy, I must disagree with statemnts
about storage, optical storage, isnt the way safe by any means, BUT
there are plenty of other media which have already proved its worth
in the long term. Lets face it, FILM IS on the way out, digital
media has just about taken over in everything, just look at what
they used for the last star wars movies.

As for ITN, I looked into there collection, and if you have a spare
30k you can have the lot!

A half way house on this matter would be, allow low res copies to be
streamed or duplicated, and allow cash purchase for the rest.

There is no point saving material if nobody can see it, or afford it.

Lots of other places now do this, it allows vintage material to be
viewed by the masses, as apposed to hording, and view by the few.

Technically, the E train is owned by the E train group, so we should
have access to all material it is included in, but we dont.

Looks like all the material covering APT will just be stored for
ever then, with no one being able to get at it, unless you are rich.

Just as a last note on this as I think this topic has gone on for
long enough.

If there is a system, it maybe flawed, but its all we have.

In that case, if I didnt challenge the system the NRM had, you would
be stirring your coffee with what would be left of APT-E. Instead
she is now safe, undercover and being looked after, so for years to
come, anyone can see her, all be it, in restored cosmetic form.

If there are flaws in a system, then change must be made.

I see you points Nick, but you dont just have to go with the flow,
if enough people want something, it can be made to happen. Same
with BTF re-doing all the APT stuff I suppose, although we being a
small group interested in APT, I doubt it. But the fact remains, we
want to see the material so it should be available, be it in any
form.

Regards

Paul

On 8 Dec 2005, at 3:07 pm, Paul Leadley wrote:

> Hi Nick,
> As a very highly trained IT guy, I must disagree with statemnts
> about storage, optical storage, isnt the way safe by any means, BUT
> there are plenty of other media which have already proved its worth
> in the long term. Lets face it, FILM IS on the way out, digital
> media has just about taken over in everything, just look at what
> they used for the last star wars movies.

They are new creation - I thought we were talking about legacy film
here.

> As for ITN, I looked into there collection, and if you have a spare
> 30k you can have the lot!
>
> A half way house on this matter would be, allow low res copies to be
> streamed or duplicated, and allow cash purchase for the rest.

But they already do!!!
(see below)

> There is no point saving material if nobody can see it, or afford it.

> Lots of other places now do this, it allows vintage material to be
> viewed by the masses, as apposed to hording, and view by the few.
>
> Technically, the E train is owned by the E train group, so we should
> have access to all material it is included in, but we dont.
>
> Looks like all the material covering APT will just be stored for
> ever then, with no one being able to get at it, unless you are rich.

As I was saying, they do this already. Whole newslreels, out-takes,
trims, unpublished film, you name it, Pathé, Movietone, ITN, etc etc
are all digitising everything they hold and are allowing free public
previews.

So how do you prioritise digital conversion? football - monarchy -
funerals - accidents - cars - shipping - trains....

Maybe even APT-E... Let's have a quick shufty....

Ooo look...

http://www.movietone.com/assets/BMN0118/quicktime/BMN_98333_32.mov

When you think how many feet of film has ever been shot, you can
understand why it won't all appear overnight!

Nick

>If you feel there is no case to re-produce most APT material, why
>spend money and time updating the copyright.

To stop you copying it without paying the rights holders.
You don't have the right to copy anything you don't own unless you have
permission from the owner. If you want legal permission then you have to
pay. It's in our interest to renew the entire collection.

>It would appear that is a case, we dont won't you to see this.
>why cannot people have copies, as long as they are not sold.

It's not about whether we want you to see it or not, If you copy it to your
friend, who copies it for his friends and so on, then all of a sudden thats
6 or 7 mates that have a tape of a film owned by a rights holder who is
storing the masters and getting no return. Copying without permission is
stealing, you don't need me to tell you that.

>Red tape is all I can say, Im just glad Ive collected "ORIGIONAL"
>apt material so I can get to watch them.
>
>Even after the APT has gone, its still wrapped up in red tape.

I'm sorry you feel this way, as I explained I plan to include both APT films
in future releases - but they will not recover costs as 2 standalone films.
This is why the yellow sleeved vhs is rare because the original release
label couldn't make it sell. To enable fans the opportuntiy to be able to
see these films legally they have to be packaged with other titles of wider
appeal to recover the production costs. Personally I think, and I hope the
majority of the forum do, that this is quite a positive move forward?

Regards,
Steve.

I have purchased all my apt material through legal means, its just a
shame that there is just so much we will never see, due to greed.

Thats all I am gonna say now, its just a dam shame people cannot see
the wider picture.

Thank you. Please will you let let me know when it's ready for sale?
I think this DVD would be worth at least £20 if not more.

Thank you, Peter.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew White"
<groups@n...> wrote:

>
> With all the talk about an APT DVD, I thought the group might like

to

> know about the release we're planning at Nova Home Video.
>
> "The Story of the APT" is to be a comprehensive look at the APT
> history, with archive footage, interviews and new footage all

working

> to detail this broken dream.
>
> The intention is to include archive footage - so I'm looking to

the

> group for any video footage you may have of the APT in action...
>
> Also, I'm in talks with various archive libraries in using news

footage

> of both APT's - but this is a hugely difficult area, and may end

up

> costing too much - we'll see...
>
> I'm interested in hearing from anyone who might be able to help

with

> this project, which is rather a labour of love than a money-making
> venture.
>
> Andrew White
> www.novahomevideo.co.uk
>

Greetings,

Just joined the group. Do you have anymore APT video like the 1 below?

Thanks, peter.

http://www.movietone.com/assets/BMN0118/quicktime/BMN_98333_32.mov

_________________________________________________________________
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Welcome to the group Peter!

More excellent APT footage can be found at the 'official' APT-E & P sites:

http://www.APT-E.org

http://www.APT-P.com

Enjoy!
Andy

http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

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