All

I am reading with interest the exchanges on APT-P and action that
should be taken to preserve the set.

As an APT-E volunteer I did write to the NRM (Matt Thomson) to ask
why APT-P (as a UK speed record holder for 20 odd years) was not fit
for display at Shildon.. I have yet to receive an answer!

It seems that although the set is owned by the Crewe Heritage Trust,
I am unsure where the 'National Collection' interest comes in as
once the NRM decided it wanted one of the power cars, it got.

Quite frankly I would love to see the train run again, however the
main priority is getting it inside and this has to be NRM at
Shildon. Perhaps Kit/Paul and any others could lobby the NRM?

The problem is as Kit pointed out, the NRM loves its steam trains
and the APT-E group seems to have fallen by the wayside now the NRM
has got a half decent train to display.

I think the only way to see the train running again is to engage
sponsorship and the national lottery although I bet this will be a
hard slog and there are countless obstacles to overcome as noted
(has anyone considered asking French companies and shipping it out
there? I am sure they would welcome it with open arms!)

The one thing is for certian, if we seriously consider wanting to do
this then it needs to be formalised either with Crewe, or if they
are not interested a separate registered group (if Crewe are
prepared to relinquish ownership) but that still leaves the problem
of where will the train be kept. However, this will require more
than exchanging ideas via a messaging service (actual meetings,
actions etc)and someone will need to take a lead on this.

In terms of FOI, I work in this area at the moment so suggest that
rather than approach the NRM, you may wish to approach the
Department of Transport (as they will be responsible for the
archives until 30 years is up - then they go to Kew). You need to
be specific so an initail request may be to find out what files are
held on APT and take it from there.

Just thought I would throw a few thoughts in on this one!

Simon Argyle

Rob,

>APT-E had completed 23559 miles when delivered to the NRM at York in
>1976. Perhaps Paul could confirm this ? Did APT-E have a mile-o-meter, <

That's correct, it's not only in 'The Bible' but it's in my logbooks too
<g>

We did have a mileometer of sorts. The radar speedo kept track of the
mileage but it wasn't easy to get the data out of it's memory, so Hugh
Williams usually sorted it out at the end of every day and gave the figures
to all interested parties.

>APT-P didn't so I can't answer your question. I'd like to know the answer
>however !<

I'm surprised P-Train didn't have one, it's the sort of thing CM&EE were
keen on. When we were testing POP-Train with 87 101 at Lockerbie, the
prototype thyristor loco, I took a ride up the hill in the 87 cab. That had
a mileometer on the 2nd man's panel.

Regards
Kit

A small correction to earlier remarks from Kit and Alistair. There may also be some good news regarding spares availability. There is still a large fleet of locomotives running which use the same power equipment as the APT-P.

"Just about the only part of P-Train and a Class 91 that's common is the traction motor, and they have different mounts too." [Kit]

"Secondly, if the APT only shares tractions motors with the 91 then there could be issues..." [Alistair]

The c91 motor is not the same as the APT-P. I can't think of any common parts between the 2. The c91 was truely a generation ahead of the APT-P - it packed another 2300hp and 2 cabs into the same space for a start.

The P-train motors were provided by ASEA of Sweden. They were "off the shelf" having been used previously on the Swedish Railways Rc series locomotives. To reduce track forces, they were mounted inside the powercar body and drove the wheelsets through cardan shafts. The gearboxes used as part of this transmission were a major reliability issue on the P trains.

Now for the good news, the Rc-Series was pretty sucessful in Sweden and a fleet was also sold to Amtrak for the North East Corridor. These were still running as recently as 2003.

ASEA also bid for the c91 motor, but GEC won. The motor used was a further development of the c87 motor. Again body mounting was required to reduce track forces, but they are mounted in a different and more elegant way. John Dowling seems to have made the difference: (Dowling was EE/GEC's Mr Bogie: having designed deltic bogies among others)

Roger Ford captured this succinctly in Mordern Railways April 88:

"He broke completely with the concept of the c91 as a derivation of the APT-P power car. Removal of the traction motors from within the body to beneath the underframe was a master-stroke. Here they occupied the same space within the bogie normally taken up by the traction motors in a conventional locomotive like c87"

Gordon,

Simon,

>Quite frankly I would love to see the train run again, however the
>main priority is getting it inside and this has to be NRM at
>Shildon. Perhaps Kit/Paul and any others could lobby the NRM?<

There are some fundamental problems there. The P-Train is longer than the
trainshed at Shildon for a start. Secondly there is a wide gangway right
across the shed in the centre, and even E-Train has been split in half for
the display. There just might be enough room for a 3+3 set in there, one
Driving Trailer, one Van Trailer and a loco each end, but that would mean
missing out the most common P-Train vehicles, the fully articulated
trailers.

Of course all this supposes that a) Crewe would want to let it go, which I
doubt and b) the NRM gives a damn.............

Regarding Class 91 traction motors and P-Train ditto, I only wrote what I
knew at the time, and then they were going to be the same.

Regards
Kit

Kit

I still haven't found a mileometer on any of the APT-P vehicles at
Crewe, we do have a document that describes an APT SPEED DISTANCE
RECORDER that was used to record the distance travelled within
predetermined speed ranges

ie
15 to 160 km/h
160 to 175 km/h
175 to 200 km/h
200 km/h and above

anyone who know better please get in touch with me via this group!

Incidently the DA sets and compressors both have hours meters.



Rob
www.apt-p.com

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Brian,

>How did the APT-P gangways work when there was a tilt failure on a coach,

when the next >was tilting?<

They aren't fastened together firmly, they are sprung loaded against each
other with quite a wide facing panel on each gangway so that even if one
coach is tilted full positive and the next one full negative the facing
panels won't move far enough so that they are out of line.

Walking across the joint would be NO fun however, as the two floors could
be tilted 24 degrees relative to one another in the worst case. On E-Train
it wasn't so bad as the floor is 'flexible' in theory. (Ask Paul just how
flexible............... <g>)

I don't know if that ever occured in public service, do you know Rob?

Regards
Kit

> I don't know if that ever occured in public service, do you know

Rob?



Kit

I don't know for sure if this ever happened in service but I'd
imagine that it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that two adjacent coaches
would fail hard over in opposite directions.

In later days the TFDU would, within a few seconds, detect an error
and shut down the tilt pumps allowing the coach to right itself.

Walking across the joint is a little hairy - I've done just that on
the APT-P at Crewe - I have it on video somewhere !!!

Rob
www.apt-p.com

Brian,

>Sounds a bit dangerous to me, the possibilty of uneven gangways. <

You'd be surprised how much uneveness people can tolerate without noticing.
As Rob says in reply, the likliehood of a total, opposite direction tilt
failure was EXTREMELY unlikely, and even a hard-over single failure would
be detcted, as Rob says, and the offending coach would be rerturned to a
'track parallel' position.

We did do full failure tests on E-Train by running round Upper Broughton
curve at full tilt speed and failing TC1 in the outward direction. Lots of
measurements were taken of track and wheelset forces, bogie displacements
etc. but someone had to ride in the failed car to see how bad it felt.
Guess who....................? <g>

I'm not sure I was a good candidate as I could 'switch off' my sensitivity
to tilt angles but I could give an objective report I guess. It wasn't
comfortable but it was bearable.

Regards
Kit

Better not be to a scrap yard - I'd chain myself to the track if that
was the case.

When will we find out more?

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:

> This is no wind up folks, I've received information from an extremely

reliable source (no one connected to this group) that the APT-P at the
Railway Age, Crewe, is to be moved within the next couple of months!!!!!

>
> I can't give you any other information at this moment in time as

it's "confidential".

>
> Watch this space.....
> Andy
>
> P.S Remember, you heard this 'exclusive' information here first!

Hmmmmmm.... could this be a first steph to getting the old lady under
cover? Fingers, toes and all other appendages crossed. I shall await
further news with great interest.

Cheers,
Steve

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <yahoo@h...>
wrote:

> Better not be to a scrap yard - I'd chain myself to the track if

that

> was the case.
>
> When will we find out more?

Somehow, I don't think it's the scrapyard.

I hope it's going to the NRM where it should be in the first place.

If it does go to NRM, I hope they make a big fuss over it and have
nice big information boards.

It might very well have moved already, as I passed the layby at M6-A500
at 3am on Tues/Wed sitting in the shadows on a low loader totally
covered in tarpaulin.
I was unable to see positively but it was most certainly the shape of
the APT. If it was, the question is where was she going.

Cheers Clydesider

Hello All

Can anyone confirm this? Rob? Has anyone traveled past its location?

Thanks

Justin
www.apt-p.info

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "clydesider49443"
<clydeside49@a...> wrote:

> It might very well have moved already, as I passed the layby at M6-

A500

> at 3am on Tues/Wed sitting in the shadows on a low loader totally
> covered in tarpaulin.
> I was unable to see positively but it was most certainly the shape

of

> the APT. If it was, the question is where was she going.
>
> Cheers Clydesider

Attachments :

----- Original Message -----

From: clydesider49443

 

It might very well have moved already, as I passed the layby at M6-A500
at 3am on Tues/Wed sitting in the shadows on a low loader totally
covered in tarpaulin.
I was unable to see positively but it was most certainly the shape of
the APT. If it was, the question is where was she going.

Andy,

Isn't the Class 91 a spin off from the APT project?

Also, am i alone in thinking the Class 89 is an APT-P with buffers as they
look very alike?


Comments welcome...
Ian

>"Andy Appleton" wrote:

No, the APT-P is still at Crewe. I *think* what you saw was GNER's 91118 on
it's way to Crewe Works for the open weekend - I've attached a pic of 91118
on the low loader minus it's tarpaulin.

Take Care,
Andy

P.S. Sorry for the "off-topic" photo!

_________________________________________________________________
Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

Well i have been to Crewe today for the open day andcan catagorically
confirm she is still there as i always go down north end of platform
to see her and take a pic.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <yahoo@h...>
wrote:

> Better not be to a scrap yard - I'd chain

myself to the track if
that

> was the case.
>
> When

will we find out more?

Somehow, I don't think it's the scrapyard.

I hope it's going to the NRM where it should be in the first place.

If it does go to NRM, I hope they make a big fuss over it and have
nice big information boards.

well said johnnie. when will further announcements be made? is it still
being moved? where will it be moved to? i hope it doesnt end up at a scrap
yard! come on andy please tell as the suspense is killing me...

john

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger 7.5 is now out. Download it for FREE here.
http://messenger.msn.co.uk

----- Original Message -----

From: John Wood

well said johnnie. when will further announcements be made? is it still
being moved? where will it be moved to? i hope it doesnt end up at a scrap
yard! come on andy please tell as the suspense is killing me...

john

eBay item 6562013681

Hi Guys an Gals, When are we likely to hear any type of annoncement
about the possible impending move, or any type of announcement about
what the future holds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Thanx
Johnnie.(Polmadieboy - in Portsmouth).

Final price was £102.99! 8-O

I still would'nt sell mine - it's priceless!

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: "Alan" <yahoo@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:57:19
To:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Learn to drive APT-P

Final price was £102.99! 8-O





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Sent via BlackBerry
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I notice the railway age at Crewe has closed for the winter, has this got
anything to do with the hinted move?

Andrew

Believe me guys - I am well aware of how much was paid for that APT
manual.... I paid for it!

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@o...> wrote:

> I still would'nt sell mine - it's priceless!
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Alan" <yahoo@h...>
> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:57:19
> To:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: <APT Group> Re: Learn to drive APT-P
>
> Final price was £102.99! 8-O
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------

~-->

> Make a difference. Find and fund world-changing projects at

GlobalGiving.

> http://us.click.yahoo.com/PcNrnD/PbOLAA/cosFAA/8ZCslB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

~->

>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> - - - - - - - - - - -
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Guys, If that's the case and there are 2 copies, then why not put a
selection of pages within "OUR" site in the files section for the rest
of us to peruse !!!!!. Afterall it's the disemination of info like
this that we all hope one day to have a gander over.

Thanx
Polmadieboy

I would if I could, unfortunately I don't have a scanner. I'm sure
there's a few more members of this group who have a copy of the
driving instructions (along with the working instructions & driver's
static duties) - any offers?

Cheers,
Andy

P.S The front covers of the above manuals can be seen at:
http://www.apt-p.com/APTLeaflets.htm


"Johnnie Russell" wrote:

> Guys, If that's the case and there are 2 copies, then why not put a

selection of pages within "OUR" site in the files section for the rest
of us to peruse !!!!!. Afterall it's the disemination of info like
this that we all hope one day to have a gander over.

Righto- I'm awaiting delivery of said documents as we speak, and when
they arrive I'll try to get them scanned and then pass them on to
someone; probably Rob Latham, who can give them the widest audience
possible.

Sound like a plan?

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:

> I would if I could, unfortunately I don't have a scanner. I'm sure
> there's a few more members of this group who have a copy of the
> driving instructions (along with the working instructions &

driver's

> static duties) - any offers?
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> P.S The front covers of the above manuals can be seen at:
> http://www.apt-p.com/APTLeaflets.htm
>
>
> "Johnnie Russell" wrote:
>
> > Guys, If that's the case and there are 2 copies, then why not put

a

> selection of pages within "OUR" site in the files section for the

rest

> of us to peruse !!!!!. Afterall it's the disemination of info like
> this that we all hope one day to have a gander over.

Item number 8339541689

>I hear rumours that Hornby are looking at the Blue Pullman mouldings. It
>is thought this is because of the new Blue Pullman book published recently.

Not sure if the BP book can claim the credit for Hornby (allegedly) looking
again at their model, but it would be nice to think that its publication
gave the train a bit of a boost in the public consciousness, and that might
have made Hornby think about it.

>It's a pity a new APT book couldn't be published now - with hopefully the
>same results.

As for a new APT book - could it be any better than the existing one...?
Maybe with the benefit of looking back from the here and now (and especially
in the light of recent developments with Pendolinos).

The old one still attracts good prices on eBay, that's true, but that's from
a relatively small number of people chasing even fewer available books. A
publisher is looking at selling 1000, 1500, maybe 2000, and I can only think
that Ian Allan (who steadfastly refuse to reprint it) have done their
homework.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I just don't see it being as popular a
subject as BP (which hadn't really had a book like that devoted to it
before).

Discuss!

Cheers, Howard.
(Declaring an interest only... partner in Kestrel Railway Books.)

This absorbing documentary produced by British Transport Films about
the development of APT-E is to be included in the BFI's 'The British
Transport Films Collection' DVD to be released in the spring.

Details of this and other films to be released is available at...

http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk
(click on 'news')

Regards

Nick

Mmm! It says, ". . . the third DVD which is scheduled for a Spring 2006 release"!

I've put a reminder in my diary so I'll let people know if necessary.

Regards

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 17/10/2005 at 09:59 Nick Wheat wrote:

>This absorbing documentary produced by British Transport Films about  
>the development of APT-E is to be included in the BFI's 'The British  
>Transport Films Collection' DVD to be released in the spring.
>
>Details of this and other films to be released is available at...
>
>http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk
>(click on 'news')
>
>Regards
>
>Nick
>
>
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Hi Guys an Gals, One month has passed and still nuffin.
When are we likely to hear any type of announcement
about the possible impending move, or any type of announcement about
what the future holds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Thanx
Johnnie.(Polmadieboy - in Portsmouth).

>Hi Guys an Gals, One month has passed and still nuffin. <

Exactly................................

Regards
Kit

Can we at least be told whether it's going North or South; that way
I'll know if it's going further away from me or getting closer!

Kit,

Are you saying that September 9th might be the new April 1st?

Alan.


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@c...> wrote:

>
> >Hi Guys an Gals, One month has passed and still nuffin. <
>
> Exactly................................
>
> Regards
> Kit
>

Alan,

>Are you saying that September 9th might be the new April 1st?<

Well it is a little surprising that one person on this list who would be
most likely to know about this, Rob, doesn't know about it.

And there has been little, if any, mention of it anywhere else, including
here............

Me, a cynic???

Ask Paul, he'll tell you I have a special cynical lining to my crash
hat.........

Regards
Kit

Hi Kit and all

you are right that I don't know anything about 'the move' !

Let me know before it goes, as I still have my toolkit onboard.


Rob
www.apt-p.com


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@c...> wrote:

>
> Alan,
>
> >Are you saying that September 9th might be the new April 1st?<
>
> Well it is a little surprising that one person on this list who

would be

> most likely to know about this, Rob, doesn't know about it.
>
> And there has been little, if any, mention of it anywhere else,

including

> here............
>
> Me, a cynic???
>
> Ask Paul, he'll tell you I have a special cynical lining to my crash
> hat.........
>
> Regards
> Kit
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Rob Latham

you are right that I don't know anything about 'the move' !

>The APT-P's home The Railway Age recently took on a new 'project' which
>required more space than they had available. As a result, it was decided

that >they needed to have a clear-out of the majority of their preserved
locos etc.. >to make may for this new 'project'. <

Hmn, difficult to imagine a 'project' that would cause a museum called 'The
Raiwlay Age' to divest itself of the primary display objects in it's
collection.

Why would anyone want to visit such a museum that DIDN'T have any rolling
stock? My brain hurts....

Regards
Kit

Kit Spackman wrote:

> Hmn, difficult to imagine a 'project' that would cause a museum called 'The
> Raiwlay Age' to divest itself of the primary display objects in it's
> collection.
>
> Why would anyone want to visit such a museum that DIDN'T have any rolling
> stock? My brain hurts....

Maybe the new project *is* a significant amount of rolling stock?

James Moody
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