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Great! I've just submitted my suggestion...

> Brian Torrens wrote:

The Bachmann web site has a page:
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/wish_list.php4

Which is for people to enter a model which they would like made. I
suggested an APT-E. If Hornby don't re-release the P train, perhaps
Bachman might make an E train, if enough people say!

Hi Rob,

Fantastic news!!!!! Can you tell us when the site will be up &
running again as we are really missing your great site.

Cheers,
Andy

http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

> "Rob Latham" wrote:

I have been in touch with Paul at Softflare (who kindly donated the
domain name and unlimited webspace) and he is willing to load the
website back onto their servers if I send a CD-ROM of it.

On this theme, I submitted a request for a P-Train around two years
ago, but heard nothing since. Strangely enough, whilst getting some
replacement buffers for a bachmann deltic in a model shop in
Scarborough, I bumped into the local bachmann rep (who kindly
supplied and fitted some new buffers to the deltic). I asked about
any possibility of a P-Train model (as it did run in service and
held the UK speed record for nearly 25 years [so should really be at
the NRM should it not - sorry rob!]).

Anyway, the rep was receptive but as with all businesses they have
to produce items that turn in a profit eg main line diesels that
come in different liveries. If I recall he said that they would
have to sell 10,000 units to break even. Are there 10,000 people
out there that will buy an APT? I would have two twelve car sets,
one as a P-Train and the other to convert into an articulated 155mph
APT-S! I think the P-Train would be a better bet than E-train given
the slightly different liveries and the fact there was three of
them. Bachmnann could also produce a record breaking limited
edition set so there is a bit of scope.

Hi all

just a quick note to inform you that WWW.APT-P.COM is now back in
action, thanks to all those who sent positive comments about the site.

If you have any ideas on how I can keep the content fresh, or
suggestions for new features please let me know.

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Great news Rob, Glad to hear the news.

Regards,

Tim.

Tim Pape

Room 120, 442 Building
Pyestock,
Cody Technology Park,
Farnborough,
Hants,
GU14 0LX.

Tel: 01252 397449
Fax: 01252 397274
e-mail: tjpape@...
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Latham
Sent: 11 August 2005 12:42
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Return of APT-P.COM

Hi all

just a quick note to inform you that WWW.APT-P.COM is now back in
action, thanks to all those who sent positive comments about the site.

If you have any ideas on how I can keep the content fresh, or
suggestions for new features please let me know.

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com








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Music to my ears (and eyes)!

Great job Rob.

Thanks, Rob

Regards

Gerry

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 11/08/2005 at 11:41 Rob Latham wrote:

>Hi all
>
>just a quick note to inform you that WWW.APT-P.COM is now back in
>action, thanks to all those who sent positive comments about the site.
>
>If you have any ideas on how I can keep the content fresh, or
>suggestions for new features please let me know.
>
>Best wishes
>
>
>Rob
>www.apt-p.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>This email has been verified as Virus free
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Hello! My name is Ben Goodwin and I am studying at the University of
Birmingham.

As part of my final year dissertation I am undergoing a project on
the failure of the Advanced Passenger Train.
I have successfully completed my reading of secondary sources, but
am now moving onto primary material.
Rob as kindly aided me in terms of promotional material surrounding
the APT-P. However, I am looking for as many sources as I can get my
hands on; personal accounts, time-tables, technical drawings -
basically anything that will help my dissertation.

If anyone can help - and I will be most grateful - my E-mail address
is benjorama_style@... - or I can provide a postal address
for photocopies.
Obviously, once completed, I will provide you with a copy of my
dissertation and you will be fully thanked in my acknowledgements.

Cheers.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Ben Goodwin

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Hi Ben

might I suggest that people send there memories / info etc to this
group rather than direct to you - that way we can all share in them ?

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "aptdiss"
<benjorama_Style@h...> wrote:

> Hello! My name is Ben Goodwin and I am studying at the University

of

> Birmingham.
>
> As part of my final year dissertation I am undergoing a project on
> the failure of the Advanced Passenger Train.
> I have successfully completed my reading of secondary sources, but
> am now moving onto primary material.
> Rob as kindly aided me in terms of promotional material surrounding
> the APT-P. However, I am looking for as many sources as I can get

my

> hands on; personal accounts, time-tables, technical drawings -
> basically anything that will help my dissertation.
>
> If anyone can help - and I will be most grateful - my E-mail

address

> is benjorama_style@h... - or I can provide a postal address
> for photocopies.
> Obviously, once completed, I will provide you with a copy of my
> dissertation and you will be fully thanked in my acknowledgements.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Hope to hear from you soon.
>
> Ben Goodwin

Ben

Might I suggest 'On the Right Lines' - Rob will be able to tell you
who the author is as my copy is not readily accessible.

This book examines the management failures in the APT project and
how these were overcome (sadly too late for the extra govt funding
required, but not for the successful running between 1982-85.)
Moreover the same managment approach that resolved the APT project
at this time served as a model for IC225, which we know was a
success (in that it made it into service!). This book forms a good
critique that will serve to be very useful for citation in a
dissertation.

I think the key phrase of the independent report into the project
was that 'the technology was found to be sound'.

Simon Argyle



--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "aptdiss"
<benjorama_Style@h...> wrote:

> Hello! My name is Ben Goodwin and I am studying at the University

of

> Birmingham.
>
> As part of my final year dissertation I am undergoing a project on
> the failure of the Advanced Passenger Train.
> I have successfully completed my reading of secondary sources, but
> am now moving onto primary material.
> Rob as kindly aided me in terms of promotional material

surrounding

> the APT-P. However, I am looking for as many sources as I can get

my

> hands on; personal accounts, time-tables, technical drawings -
> basically anything that will help my dissertation.
>
> If anyone can help - and I will be most grateful - my E-mail

address

> is benjorama_style@h... - or I can provide a postal address
> for photocopies.
> Obviously, once completed, I will provide you with a copy of my
> dissertation and you will be fully thanked in my acknowledgements.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Hope to hear from you soon.
>
> Ben Goodwin

Ben & Simon

details of that book are -

On the Right Lines? examines a range of key factors that explain the
limits to technological innovation. The book concentrates on British
Rail's experience with the High Speed Train, Advanced Passenger Train
and InterCity 225 projects. Reference is also made to the
international experience with studies of similar projects in France,
Japan, Germany, the USA, Australia and Sweden.
Frances Pinter (Publishers) London
ISBN 0 86187 580 X
Stephen Potter © 1987


Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Simon Argyle"
<simonargyle@h...> wrote:

> Ben
>
> Might I suggest 'On the Right Lines' - Rob will be able to tell you
> who the author is as my copy is not readily accessible.
>
> This book examines the management failures in the APT project and
> how these were overcome (sadly too late for the extra govt funding
> required, but not for the successful running between 1982-85.)
> Moreover the same managment approach that resolved the APT project
> at this time served as a model for IC225, which we know was a
> success (in that it made it into service!). This book forms a good
> critique that will serve to be very useful for citation in a
> dissertation.
>
> I think the key phrase of the independent report into the project
> was that 'the technology was found to be sound'.
>
> Simon Argyle
>
>
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "aptdiss"
> <benjorama_Style@h...> wrote:
> > Hello! My name is Ben Goodwin and I am studying at the University
> of
> > Birmingham.
> >
> > As part of my final year dissertation I am undergoing a project

on

> > the failure of the Advanced Passenger Train.
> > I have successfully completed my reading of secondary sources,

but

> > am now moving onto primary material.
> > Rob as kindly aided me in terms of promotional material
> surrounding
> > the APT-P. However, I am looking for as many sources as I can get
> my
> > hands on; personal accounts, time-tables, technical drawings -
> > basically anything that will help my dissertation.
> >
> > If anyone can help - and I will be most grateful - my E-mail
> address
> > is benjorama_style@h... - or I can provide a postal address
> > for photocopies.
> > Obviously, once completed, I will provide you with a copy of my
> > dissertation and you will be fully thanked in my acknowledgements.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Hope to hear from you soon.
> >
> > Ben Goodwin

Just a few thoughts - firstly, the APT-P website. Good to see it back,
and I would enjoy seeing more pictures of the remaining set at Crewe
as she is today. The repaint, from the published pictures I've seen,
looks superb and I'd like to see the website make more of that.

I've no doubt this question has been asked before but what would be
required to turn her back into a runner? I have no doubt that the work
required would be extensive, but there are industry figure who has
already acknowledged APT's importance in the history of the West Coast
mainline. Is there any chance that we could one day see this train run
again? Nothing is impossible - witness the group who have rebuilt
locmotives from scrap, or even from scratch. Would there be sufficient
support to make APT run again?

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated - Mr Latham; what
do you reckon?!

Just a few thoughts - firstly, the APT-P website. Good to see it back,
and I would enjoy seeing more pictures of the remaining set at Crewe
as she is today. The repaint, from the published pictures I've seen,
looks superb and I'd like to see the website make more of that.

I've no doubt this question has been asked before but what would be
required to turn her back into a runner? I have no doubt that the work
required would be extensive, but there are industry figure who has
already acknowledged APT's importance in the history of the West Coast
mainline. Is there any chance that we could one day see this train run
again? Nothing is impossible - witness the group who have rebuilt
locmotives from scrap, or even from scratch. Would there be sufficient
support to make APT run again?

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated - Mr Latham; what
do you reckon?!







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I'd be inclined to agree, but then how much of railway preservation
started out as "pie in the sky" dreaming? The PAT is sited next to
the West Coast Mainline - she's seen by thousands of people on a
daily basis. And Virgin are aware of her importance. Picture the
scene, shall we say, five years ahead after fundraising and
rebuilding...? APT 370 003 rolling out of Euston alongside a
simultaneous Virgin Pendolino departure... The dream comes first -
then we make it happen.

Trouble is, it would cost an arm and a leg to rebuild, it it has sat
collecting rust for 20 years.

> Peter
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian
> Torrens
> Sent: 26 August 2005 17:05
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: <APT Group> Websites and other things....
>
>
> I would support it! Love to see one racing a Pendo!
>
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As you've surmised, we've gone over this umpteen times in the past.

There are three main problems, 1) Money, 2) Money and 3)
Money................

There are other problems too, not the least being the lack of expertise
available, and lack of documentation as well. On the expertise front we're
time limited remember. I was a relative youngster when the project was
running and I'm 62 now. The main movers and shakers of the time are older
than me and we won't live for ever. BR, as it was, went out of it's way to
make sure the documentation would not be available in any amount after it
had washed it's hands of the programme, and it's down to pure luck, and
some machievelian actions on my wife's part, that some of the E-Train
material was shipped to York, if only the NRM would let us see it of
course.....

There's also the political questions, would Network Rail EVER contemplate
an APT of any sort running on it's metals again? OK, I know we took E-Train
across the main-line from the NRM to Thrall's yard before the Shildon move,
but anything outside a limited excursion like that would be fraught with
difficulties, real or imagined on NR's part.

I too would love to see, hear, ride, drive either APT again, but I doubt
it's really a practical proposition. Any millionaires or lottery winners
would still be welcomed with open arms however!

Regards
Kit

Kit,

I was thinking of the APT-P, given that she uses technology which is,
comparatively speaking, more user-friendly - by which I mean 25Kv
electrics. I quite agree that trying to gain acceptance for a gas-
turbine powered vehicle to run on British metals would be fraught!
Mind you Network Rail does seem, and I say this as a railwayman,
reasonably professional in so far as the accountants are no longer in
charge. But of course, money is they key - do we as a group have any
useful conacts in this respect? Would, for example, the AC Locomtive
Group are actively gathering electrics together with a few to running
on the mainline again. Could touting the APT-P as the fore-runner of
the Class 91's help?!

As to the condition of the P-train, who knows? One wonders if the
Lottery would be able to help, perhaps under the auspices of the
National Railway Museum? All thoughts....

Opinions, gentlemen?


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@c...> wrote:

> As you've surmised, we've gone over this umpteen times in the past.
>
> There are three main problems, 1) Money, 2) Money and 3)
> Money................
>
> There are other problems too, not the least being the lack of

expertise

> available, and lack of documentation as well. On the expertise

front we're

> time limited remember. I was a relative youngster when the project

was

> running and I'm 62 now. The main movers and shakers of the time are

older

> than me and we won't live for ever. BR, as it was, went out of it's

way to

> make sure the documentation would not be available in any amount

after it

> had washed it's hands of the programme, and it's down to pure luck,

and

> some machievelian actions on my wife's part, that some of the E-

Train

> material was shipped to York, if only the NRM would let us see it of
> course.....
>
> There's also the political questions, would Network Rail EVER

contemplate

> an APT of any sort running on it's metals again? OK, I know we took

E-Train

> across the main-line from the NRM to Thrall's yard before the

Shildon move,

> but anything outside a limited excursion like that would be

fraught with

> difficulties, real or imagined on NR's part.
>
> I too would love to see, hear, ride, drive either APT again, but I

doubt

> it's really a practical proposition. Any millionaires or lottery

winners

> would still be welcomed with open arms however!
>
> Regards
> Kit

I think the prospect of any mainline running by preserved election traction is very unlikely, unless perhaps it was something like a 86 or 87 just off lease or something like that.

Of course there is such a thing as grandfather rights and anything is possible given *enough* money. But the obstacles to running even 'modern' ac electric traction in a preservation setting are big enough, without thinking about the mainline. I would have thought something as exotic and 'old' as APT-P would make it about the hardest thing to get onto the mainline.

From time to time, Old Dalby has been suggested as a site for possible ac running off the mainline, but I don't know if this is regarded as 'mainline' or if the rules are more akin to an industrial or preservation setting.

As an aside, I was at Crewe last weekend and took the opportunity to have a good look at the APT-P set. The paint job that was sponsored by Virgin and done by LNWR staff is already starting to peel and fade badly. The whole thing looks very sad and it appears that its main use is for children's parties - which seems like a bit of a sick joke. Who actually owns this set? Is it part of the national collection?

Mark

Who actually owns this set? Is it part of the national collection?

>
> Mark

Yes it is and it should be in mint condition under cover on a curved
piece of track with the bodies cranked over to 9 deg with all the
lights on.

JT

----- Original Message -----

From: ml66b

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:27 PM

Subject: <APT Group> Re: Running any APT again....

  Who actually owns this set?  Is it part of the national collection?
>
> Mark

Yes it is and it should be in mint condition under cover on a curved
piece of track with the bodies cranked over to 9 deg with all the
lights on.

JT

Hi All.

It's great to hear your views on the APT running again on the mainline
and the problems that have to be overcome. Looking that the overall
view I see no reason why this can not be done. We got old train
running on the mainline in everyday service at the moment. A good
example is the HST set still in use today, the technology used for
building the APT was used on the HST class. So spares would be still
available (Can't remember if the HST Class came before or after the
APT?)

Also looking in the East Coast main line we have a Class 89 Electric
which used again some of the APT technology. We got most of the design
and information on how the APT was build and even the people who
designed the APT are still around to help.

Was sad about the story is that the APT has just been left to rot and
now used as a play thing for kids. I'm not complaining about the
people at The Railage in Crewe. If it was not for them this peace of
British history would have been lost forever. They done a fantastic
job just to keep it the way it is now.

So what now? As far as I can see it needs to be indoors the APT set
has been outside for a number of years and this would be doing more
harm than good. Since we all would like to see it up and running again
even some kind of cover for the set. Would Virgin Train's help here?
Could we get Virgin Trains to sponsor the repair and run it a special
train?

The last thing I like to say is regarding the paint pearling off it
not usually a fault of the paint job but like most paint jobs you need
add quite a few wax layers to stop this. The more wax the better the
protection.

Glad to hear you comments

Get a hold of a book called `Hugh Williams – APT – A Promise
Unfulfilled'

Justin Coleman
www.apt-p.info

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Torrens

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 10:02 AM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> Re: Running any APT again....

I have been enquiring, and the transformer status would seem to hold the answer between viable and not viable.  Perhaps the AC Loco group could help with this?

Justin Coleman <justin_coleman@...> wrote:

Hi All.

It's great to hear your views on the APT running again on the mainline
and the problems that have to be overcome. Looking that the overall
view I see no reason why this can not be done. We got old train
running on the mainline in everyday service at the moment. A good
example is the HST set still in use today, the technology used for
building the APT was used on the HST class. So spares would be still
available (Can't remember if the HST Class came before or after the
APT?)

Also looking in the East Coast main line we have a Class 89 Electric
which used again some of the APT technology. We got most of the design
and information on how the APT was build and even the people who
designed the APT are still around to help.

Was sad about the story is that the APT has just been left to rot and
now used as a play thing for kids. I'm not complaining about the
people at The Railage in Crewe. If it was not for them this peace of
British history would have been lost forever. They done a fantastic
job just to keep it the way it is now.

So what now? As far as I can see it needs to be indoors the APT set
has been outside for a number of years and this would be doing more
harm than good. Since we all would like to see it up and running again
even some kind of cover for the set. Would Virgin Train's help here?
Could we get Virgin Trains to sponsor the repair and run it a special
train?

The last thing I like to say is regarding the paint pearling off it
not usually a fault of the paint job but like most paint jobs you need
add quite a few wax layers to stop this. The more wax the better the
protection.

Glad to hear you comments

Get a hold of a book called `Hugh Williams – APT – A Promise
Unfulfilled'

Justin Coleman
www.apt-p.info






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Hi All

firstly the APT-P set at Crewe (48106 - 48602 - 49002 - 48603 -
48404 - 48103) is no longer part of the National Collection - it is
currently owned by Crewe Heritage Trust. It hasn't been used for
childrens parties for a number of years now.

APT-E and APT-P powercar 49006 is part of the National Collection and
both of them are now on display at Shildon.

The APT-P repaint sponsored by Virgin Trains in June 2002 is fading
after being exposed to the elements for three years and that on the
powercar is once again peeling.

Personally I would love to see APT-P moved to a site that is
undercover and so protecting it from the extremes of the great
British weather.

As regards to mainline running - Kit hit the nail on the head with
his comments MONEY MONEY MONEY !


Rob
www.apt-p.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Rob Latham

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 11:07 AM

Subject: <APT Group> Re: Running any APT again....

Hi All

firstly the APT-P set at Crewe (48106 - 48602 - 49002 - 48603 -
48404 - 48103) is no longer part of the National Collection - it is
currently owned by Crewe Heritage Trust. It hasn't been used for
childrens parties for a number of years now.

APT-E and APT-P powercar 49006 is part of the National Collection and
both of them are now on display at Shildon.

The APT-P repaint sponsored by Virgin Trains in June 2002 is fading
after being exposed to the elements for three years and that on the
powercar is once again peeling.

Personally I would love to see APT-P moved to a site that is
undercover and so protecting it from the extremes of the great
British weather.

As regards to mainline running - Kit hit the nail on the head with
his comments MONEY MONEY MONEY !


Rob
www.apt-p.com

Mark and everyone else

Peter Alan Waterman is no longer a trustee / secretary of Crewe
Heritage Trust

The address is correct as

Crewe Heritage Trust
The Railway Age
Vernon Way
Crewe
Cheshire
CW1 2DB


Rob



--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Drury"

<world.domination@n...> wrote:

> Thanks Rob, I suspected it was not part of the National

Collection. A proper engineering survey of the set would be a very
interesting exercise, though I don't know who would be competent to
do this.

>
> I will write to the Trust and ask them to outline their future

plands for the future protection, preservation and exhibition of the
set, and will copy any reply here.

>
> In case anyone else wants to do the same, the contact details given

on the charity commission website are:

>
> JOHN WILLIAMS
> 1 THE RAILWAY AGE
> VERNON WAY
> CREWE CW1 2DB
>
> Interestingly, the Secretary (as at 31.3.04) is listed as Peter A

Waterman.

>
> Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rob Latham
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 11:07 AM
> Subject: <APT Group> Re: Running any APT again....
>
>
> Hi All
>
> firstly the APT-P set at Crewe (48106 - 48602 - 49002 - 48603 -
> 48404 - 48103) is no longer part of the National Collection - it

is

> currently owned by Crewe Heritage Trust. It hasn't been used for
> childrens parties for a number of years now.
>
> APT-E and APT-P powercar 49006 is part of the National Collection

and

> both of them are now on display at Shildon.
>
> The APT-P repaint sponsored by Virgin Trains in June 2002 is

fading

> after being exposed to the elements for three years and that on

the

> powercar is once again peeling.
>
> Personally I would love to see APT-P moved to a site that is
> undercover and so protecting it from the extremes of the great
> British weather.
>
> As regards to mainline running - Kit hit the nail on the head

with

> his comments MONEY MONEY MONEY !
>
>
> Rob
> www.apt-p.com
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

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>
> a.. Visit your group "Advanced-Passenger-Train" on the web.
>
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>
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

I noticed that Kit Spackman, (talking about getting the APT back on-
the-rails, as it were), said that BR went out of its way to get rid of
any documentation....

I was wondering if anyone could go into more detail about this, as it
may be useful to my project.

Cheers.

Ben Goodwin

OK folks.
So here is where we stand. We have the enthusiasm - and I would
remind the doubters that the AC Logo Group (with whom I have no
contact - they are just a handy example) started out with four
members. They have something like eight locomotives under their care,
including one owned by a mainline operating company. Clearly money
and time can be found if there is sufficient will, and
professionalism attracts the right kind of attention.

We also have, in the shape of Kit and Rob amongst others,
considerable expertise on the APT. There are also other like-minded
groups who currently own and maintain AC-powered equipment from whom
advise and support could be sought.

So - what do we want to see?

I would suggest the main priority should be getting the unit under
cover, either at Crewe or at another available site. The quicker
she's under cover the sooner any deterioration can be dealt with. The
second priority should be to get an assessment of the current
condition of the unit as a matter of urgency. I agree with the
suggestion that the NRM should be consulted on this, and perhaps
invited (important phrase) to inspect and record the condition of
each vehicle. Crewe Heritage Trust, as the current owners, must
however be our first port of call. The unit is theirs, and without
their blessing nothing can be accomplished.

As to money, I think that there could be several option to explore -
Lottery Funding should be one. This unit is historically important,
and should be treated with the same care as Flying Scotsman or
Mallard. It made the success of Intercity possible through
developments such as the MK4 coach and the Class 91 and it paved the
way for the cutting edge designs we see hammering up and down the
West Coast Mainline. Virgin Trains and, specifically, Chris Green,
should also be approached. Christ - if they'd put money towards a
restoration I for one would support having the unt painted in Virgin
colours! By the way - she's named "City of Derby." Has anyone ever
thought of asking if they would like her rededicated? - with an
appropriate donation, of course....

Operationally, and this is way into the dim future, Network Rail
would doubtless be happier with a non-tilting "conventional" APT on
their metals; although again the Old Dalby test-track could be an
option should tilt running ever be considered. Could the APT be re-
engineered to carry and use Pendolino-style tilting technology?

But - pie-in-the-sky unless people are prepared at grass roots to
support and put time into the scheme. Opinions? We rise or fall by
our efforts. What do you think guys?

----- Original Message -----

From: keelar001

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 8:04 PM

Subject: <APT Group> Re: Running any APT again....

OK folks.
So here is where we stand. We have the enthusiasm - and I would
remind the doubters that the AC Logo Group (with whom I have no
contact - they are just a handy example) started out with four
members. They have something like eight locomotives under their care,
including one owned by a mainline operating company. Clearly money
and time can be found if there is sufficient will, and
professionalism attracts the right kind of attention.

We also have, in the shape of Kit and Rob amongst others,
considerable expertise on the APT. There are also other like-minded
groups who currently own and maintain AC-powered equipment from whom
advise and support could be sought.

So - what do we want to see?

I would suggest the main priority should be getting the unit under
cover, either at Crewe or at another available site. The quicker
she's under cover the sooner any deterioration can be dealt with. The
second priority should be to get an assessment of the current
condition of the unit as a matter of urgency. I agree with the
suggestion that the NRM should be consulted on this, and perhaps
invited (important phrase) to inspect and record the condition of
each vehicle. Crewe Heritage Trust, as the current owners, must
however be our first port of call. The unit is theirs, and without
their blessing nothing can be accomplished.

As to money, I think that there could be several option to explore -
Lottery Funding should be one. This unit is historically important,
and should be treated with the same care as Flying Scotsman or
Mallard. It made the success of Intercity possible through
developments such as the MK4 coach and the Class 91 and it paved the
way for the cutting edge designs we see hammering up and down the
West Coast Mainline. Virgin Trains and, specifically, Chris Green,
should also be approached. Christ - if they'd put money towards a
restoration I for one would support having the unt painted in Virgin
colours! By the way - she's named "City of Derby." Has anyone ever
thought of asking if they would like her rededicated? - with an
appropriate donation, of course....

Operationally, and this is way into the dim future, Network Rail
would doubtless be happier with a non-tilting "conventional" APT on
their metals; although again the Old Dalby test-track could be an
option should tilt running ever be considered. Could the APT be re-
engineered to carry and use Pendolino-style tilting technology?

But - pie-in-the-sky unless people are prepared at grass roots to
support and put time into the scheme. Opinions? We rise or fall by
our efforts. What do you think guys?

keelar001 wrote:

> Operationally, and this is way into the dim future, Network Rail
> would doubtless be happier with a non-tilting "conventional" APT on
> their metals; although again the Old Dalby test-track could be an
> option should tilt running ever be considered. Could the APT be re-
> engineered to carry and use Pendolino-style tilting technology?

As I understand it, the APT-P tilt is entirely within-gauge, so the
tilt, or failure of the tilt, will not bring the train into contact with
any structures or other trains. (Possibly not true for the APT-E - or
maybe that was just out of gauge for a non-tilt related reason, like
having a big nose).

So the tilt itself should, in theory, not be an issue. Unless network
rail decide to whinge about something. Which is entirely possible.

Even if the tilting is OK, you're likely to find there is a
crashworthiness problem, which could mean you end up with a blanket
100mph top speed. Even that's quite optimistic.

You've also got the brakes to consider. APT's brakes were good, but are
they still good by today's standards? Could it still stop safely from
the enhanced permissible line speed that the pendolino uses?

Then you've got the speed reporting equipment, C-APT. The beacons for
which have undoubtedly been removed from the track ages ago. As I
understand it, the pendolino balis controls tilt rather than speed in
the way that C-APT did, so you couldn't modify C-APT to read it, as it's
not doing the same function. (Do they have dual speedboards for tilt
now, or does the balis transmit the enhanced permissible speed the speed
in the way that C-APT did?)

> But - pie-in-the-sky unless people are prepared at grass roots to
> support and put time into the scheme. Opinions? We rise or fall by
> our efforts. What do you think guys?

Following my logic through, after spending lots of money, and jumping
through lots of beauracratic hoops, you've got a high speed tilting
train that can't go any faster than non-tilting trains through curves,
and has a blanket maximum speed of 100mph. You'd actually get to your
destination faster in an 87/Mk3 set.

Though I'd still book my seat on the first APT railtour today, if I
could, and I have a feeling that most people on this group would ;¬)

James Moody
--
(¯\ | aka: Major Denis Bloodnok
\ \ /¯) | ICQ: 7000473
\ \___/ / |
|/ _)| ) | No more can they keep us in
( (|_| ) | Listen, damn it, we will win
\ / | They see it right, they see it well
|====| | But they think this saves us from our hell

Crumbs, that was a download and a half! I'm glad Rob got in there and put a
few things straight......

Justin,

Using the same technology isn't the same as having spares available. The
Swedish X2000 train uses APT-P tilt technology in that the control
algorithms and geometry are identical, or were anyway, but not one single
part is the same. Just about the only part of P-Train and a Class 91 that's
common is the traction motor, and they have different mounts too. That's
just one example too.

The book you mention 'A Promise Unfulfilled' is usually called 'The Bible'
around here <g>

Ben,

The business about the APT documentation applied to the E-Train stuff. At
the time the APT project was moved from R&D Div to CM&EE and they took the
design staff but not the development staff. As a result lots of us left BR
at that point. I stayed on as they needed my hydraulic knowledge in other
areas, and the lady who is now my wife worked in the Registry at that time.
That's where all the paperwork was kept, even after projects were closed
and finished.

We took E-Train to York in 1976 and some of the spares were taken up by
truck afterward, together with some paperwork, but not all of it, the rest
went to the Registry for storage. Later on, when BR at Derby didn't really
want to know about APTs any more, they were going to scrap all the
paperwork, but Mary figured that wasn't a good idea and got it shipped to
York.

Where it is now no-one seems to know, Paul Leadly and I have tried time
after time to get a look at the NRM stores area but there's always some
reason why we can't do it. The keys aren't available, there isn't anyone
free to come with us, they are sure the stuff we want isn't there etc etc.
You name it, we've been fobbed off with it, draw your own conclusions!

Keelar001,

While I agree that your objectives are good, there are loads more people in
the UK who are interested in AC Electrics than in either APT, it's a matter
of how many people can raise the amount of cash needed to do the job.

I doubt the NRM gives a damn about either train reallly, especially
P-Train, as they have no responsibility for it. They DO have responsibilty
for E-Train, and that was only weeks away from being scrapped when Paul got
in touch with the Museum to persuade them otherwise. If it wasn't for the
Support Group and the then NRM Chief Engineer it wouldn't be at Shildon
now and it wouldn't be in the condition it is, and that's not wonderful
even though it looks it at first sight.

Looking at the state of the NRM owned P-Train Power Car last week showed
just how much they care. It's been in the open for years and is quite
appalling. Paul and I walked through it when we moved E-Train to Shildon
and it's just terrible. If the NRM cared they'd do something about it now.
It's notable it's hidden away on a centre road at Shildon and is just about
un-photographable. Stream engines get attention right now, diesels in a
month or two, old electrics in a year or two, new electrics and gas
turbines only if they are forced into it......

The issue with Network Rail approving P-Train to run on their metals again
is that there probably isn't anyone on their side who will stick their neck
out to give it. Can you imagine the furore if the slightest thing went
wrong? Our media would have a field day! Old Dalby is owned by a private
company these days and they'd want paying to use it, and you'd still have
to use NR metals to get there from Crewe.

Re-engineer P-Train to use Pendolino technology? I can't imagine a reason
why anyone would want to do that, not to mention the mind-boggling
difficulties of actually doing it. You'd have to re-engineer the entire
structure and the bogies too. The existing systems work, as Rob has
demonstrated more than once.

After the money, the biggest single problem is the rest of the UK's
attitude to APT, driven by the media of course. When I was at Shildon last
week there was a guy holding forth on '....that's the train that made
everyone sick...' to a coach party he'd led there.

Boy, he won't forget THAT day in a hurry! I stepped in and gave him and the
assembled others the true story, and after the 20 mins or so that it took,
a lot of the party said that no-one had ever mentioned all that to them,
which isn't surprising as all they do is watch TV or read the papers. What
can we do to nip that in the bud? I have no idea, but I'm trying!

Regards
Kit

As Brian Torrens stated that he would like to see an APT-P race a
Pendo, the race was this afternoon and Yep, the APT won by a good 70
feet on a corner to boot. Photographic evidence is shown in the Hornby
APT-P pictures section.

Keep up the good work and count me in for the APT to be a runner.

>Where it is now no-one seems to know, Paul Leadly and I have tried time
>after time to get a look at the NRM stores area but there's always some
>reason why we can't do it. The keys aren't available, there isn't anyone
>free to come with us, they are sure the stuff we want isn't there etc etc.
>You name it, we've been fobbed off with it, draw your own conclusions!

OK. Why not start by telling everyone you want to do this, and get it in the
heritage rags. Then name and shame anyone who b*gg*rs you about like this.
Try getting pictures of the appaling state of the trains publicised.
I would love to see these trains go again-not because I remember them, but
because I prefer seeing machinery working, not rotting.
Phill.

That sounds like a suggestion, Brian. I'm game. What do you reckon
boys? A runner in 10 years?

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Brian Torrens
<napierdeltic1977@y...> wrote:

> There are enough members in this E-group to start a preservation

society........

>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for

FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos

"Where it is now no-one seems to know, Paul Leadly and I have tried
time
after time to get a look at the NRM stores area but there's always some
reason why we can't do it. The keys aren't available, there isn't
anyone
free to come with us, they are sure the stuff we want isn't there etc
etc.
You name it, we've been fobbed off with it, draw your own conclusions!
Photos" -

Yep! I had the same problem the other week when I went down....

Hi All

Well it's great to hear a buzz about the APT-P. Action time….

1. Any one willing to help find the APT-P documentation at NRM
York? Needs help here so we can start to recover some of the lost
documentation. Does anyone know if the APT-P Documentation has been
released as `Freedom of information'?
2. Is there any other documentation around that not on the NRM
hands? IF so where the best place to start? Found some links on http:/
/www.a2a.org.uk/ not sure what they are.

Rob Latham can you help here as if we can find this lost documentation
I think it would be a good idea to have it sent over to you for safe
keeping at the 'Railway Age' Crewe

1. Any suggestion on how we start to get this out in the Media –
Any ideas? Turn the story around. Must be possible.
2. What's the best way to get funding? Does anyone know people they
can contact to help?


Just a few suggestions to get things started. Once we got the basic
set then we can move on and I think we are going to have a lot of help
from the people who have joined this group.

Thanks all

Justin Coleman
www.apt-p.info

----- Original Message -----

From: Justin Coleman

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:48 PM

Subject: <APT Group> Running APT again - Action Time

Hi All

Well it's great to hear a buzz about the APT-P. Action time….

1.      Any one willing to help find the APT-P documentation at NRM
York? Needs help here so we can start to recover some of the lost
documentation. Does anyone know if the APT-P Documentation has been
released as `Freedom of information'?
2.      Is there any other documentation around that not on the NRM
hands? IF so where the best place to start? Found some links on http:/
/www.a2a.org.uk/ not sure what they are.

Rob Latham can you help here as if we can find this lost documentation
I think it would be a good idea to have it sent over to you for safe
keeping at the 'Railway Age' Crewe

1.      Any suggestion on how we start to get this out in the Media –
Any ideas? Turn the story around. Must be possible.
2.      What's the best way to get funding? Does anyone know people they
can contact to help?


Just a few suggestions to get things started. Once we got the basic
set then we can move on and I think we are going to have a lot of help
from the people who have joined this group.

Thanks all

Justin Coleman
www.apt-p.info

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Torrens

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:45 AM

Subject: Re: <APT Group> Running APT again - Action Time

Does anybody know if APT-P is able to be hauled on the mainline, or how much would it cost to assess this?

---

Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

Captain Deltic, are you listening?

[Dymoke, Peter (UK - St Albans)]

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Mark Drury


Using the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to prise documents
out of the NRM sounds like a fun wheeze!

I'm sure the railway press would like that too.

>1. Any one willing to help find the APT-P documentation at NRM York?<

Nonononono, I was talking about the APT-E docs, not
P-Train..................

Goodness knows where the P-Train stuff is, there must be at least 10 times
as much as there is for E-Train.

Trying to strongarm the NRM to releasing stuff it may not even know they
have is a good way to REALLY piss them off and put a big spoke in the wheel
we've spent the last 5 years building. It's difficult enough with the 'we
don't really know anything about these trains' attitude they have. It will
only get worse if we try and pull some legal stunt on them.

Remember the NRM actually do own the E-Train.........

Regards
Kit

Boys,
If ever there was a time to try and get this off the ground - Old
Dalby Test Track is looking for a new use....

I suggest we act on this now.

I am intending to contact RAIL magazine tomorrow. If anyone is serious
about ever seeing APT-P run again under any circumstances then we need
to move. Contact me via my Hotmail address please.

Regards,
Steve.

I would just like to add my encouragement for any preservation
group. I have been involved with the ACLG for a short while and
have found it both interesting and rewarding.

However there are a few observations I have:

1) There seems to be a train of thought (excuse the pun) that once
an item is preserved then it is job done. Quite simply it isn't, the
APT's current plight is an example of this. Trains are expensive
items to keep in good nick-let alone run on the mainline, without
attention they will soon rust away beyond salvation. If the
something can be done then it is very important to keep interest to
help the funds and the hands.

2) Aside from the observations already made on getting the APT
anywhere near the mainline, a few other things. Firstly OTMR (black
box recording) is all but compulsory come the end of the year,
another expensive task, especially for a one off. Secondly, if the
APT only shares tractions motors with the 91 then there could be
issues surrounding it running on the WCML with its new signallling.
Assuming that other traction equipment (namely the armature and
field converters) is shared with anything else then it is likely to
display similar harmonics and this may not present such a problem.

3) Does anyone know how mechanically and electrically complete the
Crewe set is?

I really have my hands full (and the doris doesn't exactly
understand or approve!) with the ACLG going ons, however should
anything come of these thoughts and discussions I would be happy to
help out where I could.

Cheers,
Alistair

Take a look at items 5996269731 and 7542890890.

Glennis

APT-E had completed 23559 miles when delivered to the NRM at York in
1976. Perhaps Paul could confirm this ? Did APT-E have a mile-o-meter,
APT-P didn't so I can't answer your question. I'd like to know the
answer however !

Rob
www.apt-p.com

> could you tell me how many miles were travelled by APT when on test

and in service ?

>
> Glennis

Does anyone why so little is left of p-train, or how any of it was
saved from scrapping at all?