Messages in Advanced-Passenger-Train group. Page 34 of 68.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1704 From: Andy Appleton Date: 01/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-E 'Nickname'
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1705 From: Alan Date: 01/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-E 'Nickname'
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1706 From: jengimac Date: 03/04/2005
Subject: Marshalling the P-Trains
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1707 From: Rob Latham Date: 04/04/2005
Subject: AAPT - Advanced American Passenger Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1708 From: Alan Date: 04/04/2005
Subject: APT-P chamfered corners
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1709 From: James Moody Date: 04/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-P chamfered corners
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1710 From: Nick Wheat Date: 06/04/2005
Subject: Re: AAPT - Advanced American Passenger Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1711 From: Kit Spackman Date: 06/04/2005
Subject: Budd APT?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1712 From: Nick Wheat Date: 06/04/2005
Subject: Re: Budd APT?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1713 From: Brian Torrens Date: 06/04/2005
Subject: Re: Budd APT?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1714 From: Nick Wheat Date: 06/04/2005
Subject: Re: Budd APT?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1715 From: Peter Finch Date: 07/04/2005
Subject: Re: AAPT - Advanced American Passenger Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1716 From: Peter Finch Date: 07/04/2005
Subject: Re: Budd APT?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1717 From: Brian Torrens Date: 07/04/2005
Subject: Re: Budd APT?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1718 From: Rob Latham Date: 07/04/2005
Subject: Ron Puntis Collection
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1719 From: Kit Spackman Date: 07/04/2005
Subject: B-47 powered Budd RDC
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1720 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 08/04/2005
Subject: New poll for Advanced-Passenger-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1721 From: Kit Spackman Date: 08/04/2005
Subject: Ron Puntis Collection
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1722 From: Alan Date: 10/04/2005
Subject: APT-P wheels
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1723 From: jengimac Date: 14/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-P wheels
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1724 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 17/04/2005
Subject: Poll results for Advanced-Passenger-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1725 From: Alan Date: 18/04/2005
Subject: APT-P's articulated bogie
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1726 From: Kit Spackman Date: 19/04/2005
Subject: BT11 Bogie structure
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1727 From: bathmatus Date: 20/04/2005
Subject: Re: BT11 Bogie structure
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1728 From: Alan Date: 21/04/2005
Subject: Re: BT11 Bogie structure
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1729 From: Brian Torrens Date: 21/04/2005
Subject: Access to APT-P
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1730 From: Kit Spackman Date: 22/04/2005
Subject: APT-P dimensions
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1731 From: Alan Date: 22/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-P dimensions
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1732 From: bath matt Date: 25/04/2005
Subject: BT11 BOGIE
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1734 From: bathmatus Date: 25/04/2005
Subject: BT11 BOGIE
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1735 From: Brian Torrens Date: 26/04/2005
Subject: Classic Railway Newsreels
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1736 From: Andy Appleton Date: 27/04/2005
Subject: APT on TV Tonight!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1737 From: Gerry Bates Date: 27/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT on TV Tonight!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1738 From: Alan Date: 01/05/2005
Subject: Bogie pivot
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1739 From: snyepsp Date: 06/05/2005
Subject: Is it right to hate Maggie
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1740 From: Kit Spackman Date: 07/05/2005
Subject: Late responses
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1741 From: Nick Wheat Date: 07/05/2005
Subject: Re: Late responses
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1742 From: Gerry Bates Date: 07/05/2005
Subject: Re: Is it right to hate Maggie
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1743 From: Brian Torrens Date: 07/05/2005
Subject: Re: Is it right to hate Maggie
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1744 From: Brian Torrens Date: 08/05/2005
Subject: Re: Late responses
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1745 From: jengimac Date: 08/05/2005
Subject: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1746 From: Nigel richards Date: 09/05/2005
Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1747 From: Gerry Bates Date: 09/05/2005
Subject: Re[2]: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1748 From: Andrew Moglestue Date: 09/05/2005
Subject: Re: Is it right to hate Maggie
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1749 From: Andrew Moglestue Date: 09/05/2005
Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1750 From: jengimac Date: 09/05/2005
Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1751 From: Gerry Bates Date: 10/05/2005
Subject: Re[2]: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1752 From: jengimac Date: 13/05/2005
Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1753 From: Andy Appleton Date: 19/05/2005
Subject: APT-P Driver 'Tommy Farr' Retires
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1754 From: Kit Spackman Date: 20/05/2005
Subject: Digest Number 750


Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1704 From: Andy Appleton Date: 01/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-E 'Nickname'
Sorry, missed one:

Silver Dream Racer

- - - - - - - - - -
Sent via BlackBerry
- - - - - - - - - -
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1705 From: Alan Date: 01/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-E 'Nickname'
What about 'Silvia' and 'Speed Bird'?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1706 From: jengimac Date: 03/04/2005
Subject: Marshalling the P-Trains
Does anyone know what the procedure was for marshalling the P-Train trailler rakes. Could this only be performed at Derby or could it be done at Sheilds or Crewe. What equipment was required.

Also, where were the unused intermediate trailers stored. I used to wonder if they all existed.

Thanks,

Gordon,
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1707 From: Rob Latham Date: 04/04/2005
Subject: AAPT - Advanced American Passenger Train
I recently came across a booklet by the Budd Company and British
Railways Board describing the proposed AAPT. Has Kit or anyone else
ever heard of this ?

See

www.apt-p.com/AAPT.htm

Best wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1708 From: Alan Date: 04/04/2005
Subject: APT-P chamfered corners
There is a chamfer on each of the four corners of the power car and on
the adjacent corners of the TBF. What are they for?

I figure it can't be to avoid contact at full tilt and on tight curves
because it would be required on the corners of all the vehicles.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1709 From: James Moody Date: 04/04/2005
Subject: Re: APT-P chamfered corners
Alan wrote:
>
> There is a chamfer on each of the four corners of the power car and on
> the adjacent corners of the TBF. What are they for?
>
> I figure it can't be to avoid contact at full tilt and on tight curves
> because it would be required on the corners of all the vehicles.

It's to control the maximum overhang on curves, to enable longer
vehicles with to go round the same curves as vehicles of C1 proportions.
It is unrelated to tilt. These chamfers also exist on other vehicles,
e.g. HST trailers (where it is entirely within the door area). Anything
to C3 restriction will have them. They are more noticable on things of
Mk4 profile than Mk3, as the greater angle of the sides shows it up more
clearly. Have a look at a 158 or 170, for example - these show it on the
inner ends. (It's there on the cab ends too, but harder to see.)

The APT only has it on the ends of the vehicles which are not over
shared bogies - the shared bogie does not allow enough overhang between
the pivot and the car end to require the use of the chamfer.

James Moody
--
(¯\ _ | aka: Major Denis Bloodnok
\ \ / ) | ICQ: 7000473
\ \___/ / |
|/ _)| ) | No more can they keep us in
( (|_| ) | Listen, damn it, we will win
\ / | They see it right, they see it well
|====| | But they think this saves us from our hell
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1710 From: Nick Wheat Date: 06/04/2005
Subject: Re: AAPT - Advanced American Passenger Train
Attachments :
    On 4 Apr 2005, at 8:50 am, Rob Latham wrote:

    > I recently came across a booklet by the Budd Company and British
    > Railways Board describing the proposed AAPT. Has Kit or anyone else
    > ever heard of this ?

    Seems like the Budd Co. were quite forward thinking.

    The US Airforce had a large amount of B47 jet bombers going out of
    service, so the resourceful Mr Budd wondered how he could accelerate
    the train service using a few surplus jet pods....

    I gather the traincrew wore fighter pilot style helmets in a bid to
    drown out compressor whine from the engines!

    Nick

    --
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1711 From: Kit Spackman Date: 06/04/2005
    Subject: Budd APT?
    Nick,

    >Mr Budd wondered how he could accelerate
    >the train service using a few surplus jet pods....<

    That's funnier than you think.....

    The New Haven RR ( I think) once fitted an ex-B47 twin jet pod upside down
    on the roof of a Budd RDC car (DMU to you and I) with a semi-streamlined
    nose. and fired the thing down a main line at some huge speed. I think was
    in the 180s or so.

    Sadly I can't find a URL to show what it looked like.

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1712 From: Nick Wheat Date: 06/04/2005
    Subject: Re: Budd APT?
    On 6 Apr 2005, at 18:59, Kit Spackman wrote:

    > The New Haven RR ( I think) once fitted an ex-B47 twin jet pod upside
    > down
    > on the roof of a Budd RDC car (DMU to you and I) with a
    > semi-streamlined
    > nose. and fired the thing down a main line at some huge speed. I think
    > was
    > in the 180s or so.
    >
    > Sadly I can't find a URL to show what it looked like.

    I attached the image to my original email. I think people with digest
    only delivery option have these stripped away.

    This is where I first posted it...

    http://www.dreadful.org.uk/discuss/messages/1/170.jpg

    The jet-powered Budd railcar reached 183.8 mph/295.8 kmh in Bryan, Ohio
    in the USA July 1966.

    Nick
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1713 From: Brian Torrens Date: 06/04/2005
    Subject: Re: Budd APT?
    Is this for real?
    It looks like an April 1st joke!

    Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:


    On 6 Apr 2005, at 18:59, Kit Spackman wrote:

    > The New Haven RR ( I think) once fitted an ex-B47 twin jet pod upside
    > down
    > on the roof of a Budd RDC car (DMU to you and I) with a
    > semi-streamlined
    > nose. and fired the thing down a main line at some huge speed. I think
    > was
    > in the 180s or so.
    >
    > Sadly I can't find a URL to show what it looked like.

    I attached the image to my original email. I think people with digest
    only delivery option have these stripped away.

    This is where I first posted it...

    http://www.dreadful.org.uk/discuss/messages/1/170.jpg

    The jet-powered Budd railcar reached 183.8 mph/295.8 kmh in Bryan, Ohio
    in the USA July 1966.

    Nick



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    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1714 From: Nick Wheat Date: 06/04/2005
    Subject: Re: Budd APT?
    On 6 Apr 2005, at 23:18, Brian Torrens wrote:

    > Is this for real?
    > It looks like an April 1st joke!

    Deliberately posted *after* 1st April !!!

    100% pukka - crackers, in't it !!

    Nick
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1715 From: Peter Finch Date: 07/04/2005
    Subject: Re: AAPT - Advanced American Passenger Train
    Ive checked this out in my Guiness Railway Book - no picture i m afraid this is the extract from the notes on the project in the publication,
     
    A special Budd car fitted with 2 turbo jet J 47 aircraft engines mounted on the forward end reached a speed of 183.85 mph in July 1966 on the NY Central Railroad near Bryan, Ohio. The five miles were covered at an average speed of 181 mph. The car held the top speed for 300 feet.
     
    Peter

    Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:

    On 4 Apr 2005, at 8:50 am, Rob Latham wrote:

    > I recently came across a booklet by the Budd Company and British
    > Railways Board describing the proposed AAPT. Has Kit or anyone else
    > ever heard of this ?

    Seems like the Budd Co. were quite forward thinking.

    The US Airforce had a large amount of B47 jet bombers going out of
    service, so the resourceful Mr Budd wondered how he could accelerate
    the train service using a few surplus jet pods....

    I gather the traincrew wore fighter pilot style helmets in a bid to
    drown out compressor whine from the engines!

    Nick

    --

    Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1716 From: Peter Finch Date: 07/04/2005
    Subject: Re: Budd APT?
    It is true its in the Guiness Book of Railways. Two jet engines pushed the speed to 183.85mph, in July 1966

    Brian Torrens <napierdeltic1977@...> wrote:
    Is this for real?
    It looks like an April 1st joke!

    Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:


    On 6 Apr 2005, at 18:59, Kit Spackman wrote:

    > The New Haven RR ( I think) once fitted an ex-B47 twin jet pod upside
    > down
    > on the roof of a Budd RDC car (DMU to you and I) with a
    > semi-streamlined
    > nose. and fired the thing down a main line at some huge speed. I think
    > was
    > in the 180s or so.
    >
    > Sadly I can't find a URL to show what it looked like.

    I attached the image to my original email. I think people with digest
    only delivery option have these stripped away.

    This is where I first posted it...

    http://www.dreadful.org.uk/discuss/messages/1/170.jpg

    The jet-powered Budd railcar reached 183.8 mph/295.8 kmh in Bryan, Ohio
    in the USA July 1966.

    Nick



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    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1717 From: Brian Torrens Date: 07/04/2005
    Subject: Re: Budd APT?
    I've seen it all now!

    Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:


    On 6 Apr 2005, at 23:18, Brian Torrens wrote:

    > Is this for real?
    > It looks like an April 1st joke!

    Deliberately posted *after* 1st April !!!

    100% pukka - crackers, in't it !!

    Nick



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    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1718 From: Rob Latham Date: 07/04/2005
    Subject: Ron Puntis Collection
    Hi All

    I've just uploaded the Ron Puntis collection of APT-P in action !

    See

    http://www.apt-p.com/APTGalleryRP.htm

    Best wishes


    Rob
    www.apt-p.com
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1719 From: Kit Spackman Date: 07/04/2005
    Subject: B-47 powered Budd RDC
    <BG>

    At least we're all singing from the same sheet anyway!

    It was the NYC I see, not the NH, but I was close enough with my 180 guess.

    Quite what it was like on board I hate to think! Not only the most
    diabolical noise from the J-47s (I used to live under approach path to
    Brize Norton when the SAC had B-47s based there in profusion, quite they
    are NOT!) but the pic seems to indicate the RDC car had standard bogies! No
    indication of extra dampers etc. so they must have been well above the
    critical speed for hunting, maybe by a factor of 3! The train crew must
    have been very brave indeed.

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1720 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 08/04/2005
    Subject: New poll for Advanced-Passenger-Train
    Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
    Advanced-Passenger-Train group:

    Which is your favourite 'nickname' for the APT-E?

    o E-Train
    o Oily Bullet
    o Silver Bullet
    o Silver Dream Racer
    o Silver GT
    o Silver Streak
    o Silvia
    o Speed Bird
    o Other - (Please email group with your answer)


    To vote, please visit the following web page:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/surveys?id=1759681

    Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
    not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
    web site listed above.

    Thanks!
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1721 From: Kit Spackman Date: 08/04/2005
    Subject: Ron Puntis Collection
    Rob,

    >I've just uploaded the Ron Puntis collection of APT-P in action !<

    Stirring stuff! I wish he'd publish his E-Train collection
    too...............

    Is there any way you can make the posted pics thumbnails to a bigger pic,
    so that we can download the larger version please? I especially like that
    one of almost an entire P-Train in 'tilt failure' mode <g>

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1722 From: Alan Date: 10/04/2005
    Subject: APT-P wheels
    What is the diameter of APT-P's wheels?

    I think I read somewhere that they are 30 inches (762mm), but I cannot
    remember where and so cannot confirm.
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1723 From: jengimac Date: 14/04/2005
    Subject: Re: APT-P wheels
    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <yahoo@h...> wrote:
    >
    > What is the diameter of APT-P's wheels?
    >
    > I think I read somewhere that they are 30 inches (762mm), but I cannot
    > remember where and so cannot confirm.

    At least one published diagram of the articulated bogie shows a wheel diameter of 780mm. I can't find any discussion on why this size was chosen though.
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1724 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 17/04/2005
    Subject: Poll results for Advanced-Passenger-Train
    The following Advanced-Passenger-Train poll is now closed. Here are the
    final results:


    POLL QUESTION: Which is your favourite 'nickname' for the APT-E?

    CHOICES AND RESULTS
    - E-Train, 2 votes, 25.00%
    - Oily Bullet, 0 votes, 0.00%
    - Silver Bullet, 2 votes, 25.00%
    - Silver Dream Racer, 0 votes, 0.00%
    - Silver GT, 0 votes, 0.00%
    - Silver Streak, 2 votes, 25.00%
    - Silvia, 0 votes, 0.00%
    - Speed Bird, 1 votes, 12.50%
    - Other - (Please email group with your answer), 1 votes, 12.50%



    For more information about this group, please visit
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train

    For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
    http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1725 From: Alan Date: 18/04/2005
    Subject: APT-P's articulated bogie
    The inside structure of APT-P's articulated bogie is not symmetrical.

    It looks like it can be used either way round, but was it always fitted
    just one way (and if so which way)?

    Ta.
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1726 From: Kit Spackman Date: 19/04/2005
    Subject: BT11 Bogie structure
    Alan,

    >The inside structure of APT-P's articulated bogie is not symmetrical.<

    True, there's a cross member on the BT11 bogies that's nearer one axle than
    the other, with large triangulation members running back to the side
    frames.

    >It looks like it can be used either way round, but was it always fitted
    just one way (and if so which way)?<

    The crossmember was the bogie end connection for the secondary traction
    rod/damper. The damper was pretty long and could not be fitted in half the
    axle wheelbase, thus the assymetric structure. I can't remember if there
    was a traction rod anchorage on both ends of the trailer cars or not, but
    that would have let the BT11 be assembled in the train either way round.
    Logic says it would have been built like that, but maybe Rob can have a
    look and tell us?

    If you look at page 76 of 'The APT Bible' (assuming you have or can see
    one, of course...) you'll see exactly what I mean.

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1727 From: bathmatus Date: 20/04/2005
    Subject: Re: BT11 Bogie structure
    IM GOING CRWE AT THE WEEKEND SO I'LL TAKE A LOOK AT THE
    BOGIES FOR YOU

    Bathmatus
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1728 From: Alan Date: 21/04/2005
    Subject: Re: BT11 Bogie structure
    Excellent news.

    Could I be cheeky and ask that whilst you are there you:

    1) Measure the size of the front window on the nose.
    2) Measure the size of the triangular side windows between the nose and
    driver's door.
    3) Measure the size of the bags for the air suspension.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1729 From: Brian Torrens Date: 21/04/2005
    Subject: Access to APT-P
    I hope to be in Crewe in July ( for Deltic railtour ), and I shall visit APT-P whilst there.  How much of APT-P internally can be seen?

    Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1730 From: Kit Spackman Date: 22/04/2005
    Subject: APT-P dimensions
    Alan,

    >3) Measure the size of the bags for the air suspension.<

    What ARE you planning to do???? <g>

    Is this for a model or are you building your own P-Train?

    Somewhere I have the drawings for the P-Train secondary suspension test
    rig, but it's been umpteen years since I saw them. That has the air spring
    dims. on it so I'll see if I can track it down.

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1731 From: Alan Date: 22/04/2005
    Subject: Re: APT-P dimensions
    Kit,

    Build my own P-train? I wish!

    I'm adding detail to one of my Hornby models, but being a
    perfectionist means I keep finding areas to improve.

    The air bags on the model are attached to the bogies, which is
    incorrect, so I need to cut them off and move them to the body. I
    figured I should check their size and replace them if necessary
    whilst doing this.

    The power car bogies are a scale foot to short, but being die-cast it
    isn't going to be easy to stretch them; any ideas?

    I really need to get to Crewe to take lots of close-up pictures of
    detail and to make a number of measurements for scale comparison.
    Until then I am relying on diagrams, pictures, web sites, and this
    forum (which is excellent of course). A big thank you must go to
    everyone who has responded to my requests for information.

    Alan.
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1732 From: bath matt Date: 25/04/2005
    Subject: BT11 BOGIE
    Attachments :
      THE BOGIES ON APT AT CREWE HAVE THE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF
      THE ATTACHED PICTURE TOWARDS THE CAB END OF THE RAKE.

      Bathmatus

      PS> I DID NOT SEE THE REQUEST FOR MEASUREMENTS UNTIL
      THIS MORNING

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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1734 From: bathmatus Date: 25/04/2005
      Subject: BT11 BOGIE
      PICTURE OF BOGIE UPLOADED TO PHOTO SECTION AS THE ATTACHMENT FAILED

      Bathmatus
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1735 From: Brian Torrens Date: 26/04/2005
      Subject: Classic Railway Newsreels
      Just bought a Video 125 DVD - 'Classic Railway Newsreels, Steam & Modern'.  There is a clip of APT-E at Derby.  The driver seems to move the power handle with a cloth in his hand - old ways take a while to die out it seems!
      Also in an aerial shot, am I right in thinking that a Co-Bo is beside APT-E?

      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1736 From: Andy Appleton Date: 27/04/2005
      Subject: APT on TV Tonight!
      Sorry for the short notice, for those of you with SKY & Cable TV 'Trains with Pete Waterman' will be on Discovery Channel +1 at 21:00.
       
      Take Care,
      Andy
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1737 From: Gerry Bates Date: 27/04/2005
      Subject: Re: APT on TV Tonight!
      Ooh! A lot of contentious comments there, Peter!
       
      Thanks, Andy. Those of us with Top-up-TV will have caught it too.
       
      Cheers
       
      Gerry

      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

      On 27/04/2005 at 20:50 Andy Appleton wrote:
      Sorry for the short notice, for those of you with SKY & Cable TV 'Trains with Pete Waterman' will be on Discovery Channel +1 at 21:00.
       
      Take Care,
      Andy

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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1738 From: Alan Date: 01/05/2005
      Subject: Bogie pivot
      'Normal' bogied coaches that do not tilt have a well defined pivot
      point between the bogie and coach body the to allow the bogie to rotate
      under the coach body when cornering.

      APT-P does not appear to have such a well defined pivot point, rather
      it has a 'virtual' pivot point somewhere above the bogie. I'm assuming
      that this point on the BT12 Trailer Bogie is smack between the air
      bags, but it this also true for the BT11 Intermediate Bogie?

      I'm ignoring the tilt ability in these assumptions and perceiving the
      bogies as conventional bogies, which is essentially what they are when
      negotiating a corner without any body tilt.
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1739 From: snyepsp Date: 06/05/2005
      Subject: Is it right to hate Maggie
      Is it right to hate and blame Margaret Thathcer for the killing of
      APT-P and the project.

      She single handedly destroyed britain and privatised everything, now
      look at trains, all railway lines should be like Virgins standards.

      We still use 20-30 year old trains, when other countries are spending
      millions on new trains.

      The APT was something Britain could be proud of, but because of
      Margaret Thatcher, people unfairly call the project a failure.
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1740 From: Kit Spackman Date: 07/05/2005
      Subject: Late responses
      I've been on holiday for 2 weeks so I'm just catching up with postings.

      1) Brian,

      >Also in an aerial shot, am I right in thinking that a Co-Bo is beside
      APT-E?<

      Almost certainly, it's D5705, the last ever Co-Bo, now residing at Bury I
      think. I'm sure others will know better if it's moved. The Co-Bo was used
      to haul the Tribology Train for a while but it wasn't the easiest thing to
      start and it was replaced by another 'sole survivor', the Baby Deltic,
      D5901.

      2) Alan,

      >APT-P does not appear to have such a well defined pivot point, rather
      >it has a 'virtual' pivot point somewhere above the bogie. I'm assuming
      >that this point on the BT12 Trailer Bogie is smack between the air
      >bags, but it this also true for the BT11 Intermediate Bogie?<

      Effectively yes. The 'virtual pivot' is formed by the geometry of the
      various anti-yaw and anti-roll bars, together with the air springs
      themselves. If you think this means the springs are deformed sideways when
      the coach pivots in yaw, you're correct, they are. The angular change is
      quite small however and the deformation is designed into the spring
      parameters.

      E-Train really does have a pivot however, even thought it tilts. The pivot
      is the dreaded ball joint that gave Paul and I such a tough time while
      moving E-Train to Shildon. E-Train also has pin joints connecting the
      vehicles ends, which P-Train does not have.

      3) Snyepsp,

      >Is it right to hate and blame Margaret Thathcer for the killing of APT-P
      and the project.<

      Yes.

      But of course I'm 100% biased in this view. <g>

      There were other factors involved, but trying to do something
      world-shattering within a Government owned organisation when the Government
      itself does not believe in your very existance is a pretty tough job.

      Regards
      Kit
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1741 From: Nick Wheat Date: 07/05/2005
      Subject: Re: Late responses
      On 7 May 2005, at 11:37, Kit Spackman wrote:
      >> Also in an aerial shot, am I right in thinking that a Co-Bo is beside
      >> APT-E?
      >
      > Almost certainly, it's D5705, the last ever Co-Bo, now residing at
      > Bury I
      > think. I'm sure others will know better if it's moved. The Co-Bo was
      > used
      > to haul the Tribology Train for a while but it wasn't the easiest
      > thing to
      > start and it was replaced by another 'sole survivor', the Baby Deltic,
      > D5901.

      http://www.d5705.org.uk

      Scheduled to appear at the Crewe Works bash later in the summer. I hope
      we can get it re-painted - it needs it!

      Nick
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1742 From: Gerry Bates Date: 07/05/2005
      Subject: Re: Is it right to hate Maggie
      We have to blame not only Margaret Thatcher but most other politicians who have been in power before and since (I exclude from that many back-benchers who have fought some of the idiocy which the leaders have saddled us with - remember the Conservative MP - can't remember his name - who spoke up against John Major's ridiculous plans)

      So we have to blame John Major and then the current executive for not reversing the whole shambles of privatisation.

      Going further back we can blame Harold Wilson for cancelling the Channel Tunnel and high-speed line in the early 70's but further back we can blame him and Barbara Castle for carrying out the Beeching cuts which they had opposed in Opposition. And that included scrapping the GCR, the only Berne gauge line from London to the North, when the Tunnel project was still alive. It would have provided the link to the north which Central Railways is now struggling to reinstate. Compare all this with the new high speed lines in France, Germany, Spain, etc. Are we a third world country?

      But we can also blame the media for being completely negative about any railway matter and, whether this was an influence on them or not, the general public (who, illustrating this syndrome, now celebrate St George's Day by drinking lager!). We seem to be ashamed of, or have some sort of negative attitude towards, anything British, whether it be beers, Folk traditions, cars or TVs. When Panasonic and GEC set up a joint TV factory in South Wales, the only difference in the sets coming off the production line was the badge. The Panasonic sets outsold the GEC sets by a large factor so GEC pulled out.

      It is indicative that we have now lost most of our manufacturing to foreign owners - electronics, cars, lorries, buses, trains, electrical equipment.

      Margaret Thatcher encouraged with her 'share-owning society' - if not initiated - the idea that we can make a quick return. British investments have to be short-term only. If we want a quick return then long term planning, like building high speed railways or developing high-sped tilting trains, is a no-go! Motorways have been different, of course, because the Government (us!) has provided the money. But now private motorways can be built why isn't Central Railways being allowed to get on with it?

      When the dire predictions on climate change start to become an actual crisis will the British establishment start thinking again about the most fuel-efficient over-land transport existing? I doubt it?

      Cheers

      Gerry

      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

      On 06/05/2005 at 16:07 snyepsp wrote:

      >Is it right to hate and blame Margaret Thathcer for the killing of
      >APT-P and the project.
      >
      >She single handedly destroyed britain and privatised everything, now
      >look at trains, all railway lines should be like Virgins standards.
      >
      >We still use 20-30 year old trains, when other countries are spending
      >millions on new trains.
      >
      >The APT was something Britain could be proud of, but because of
      >Margaret Thatcher, people unfairly call the project a failure.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1743 From: Brian Torrens Date: 07/05/2005
      Subject: Re: Is it right to hate Maggie
      Yes.  I think if APT-P had been properly backed 'politically' threre would have been a fleet of them in service, and there would now be a son of APT being considered/built.  I personally think privatisation was a bad thing.  We had the MK 1coach, then MK II, then MK 111, and after BR went - long range DMU's - not what I would call an improvement.

      snyepsp <snyepsp@...> wrote:
      Is it right to hate and blame Margaret Thathcer for the killing of
      APT-P and the project.

      She single handedly destroyed britain and privatised everything, now
      look at trains, all railway lines should be like Virgins standards.

      We still use 20-30 year old trains, when other countries are spending
      millions on new trains.

      The APT was something Britain could be proud of, but because of
      Margaret Thatcher, people unfairly call the project a failure.






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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1744 From: Brian Torrens Date: 08/05/2005
      Subject: Re: Late responses
      Look forward to seeing Co-Bo at Crewe!

      Nick Wheat <wheaty@...> wrote:

      On 7 May 2005, at 11:37, Kit Spackman wrote:
      >> Also in an aerial shot, am I right in thinking that a Co-Bo is beside
      >> APT-E?
      >
      > Almost certainly, it's D5705, the last ever Co-Bo, now residing at
      > Bury I
      > think. I'm sure others will know better if it's moved. The Co-Bo was
      > used
      > to haul the Tribology Train for a while but it wasn't the easiest
      > thing to
      > start and it was replaced by another 'sole survivor', the Baby Deltic,
      > D5901.

      http://www.d5705.org.uk

      Scheduled to appear at the Crewe Works bash later in the summer. I hope
      we can get it re-painted - it needs it!

      Nick



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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1745 From: jengimac Date: 08/05/2005
      Subject: APT Legacy - Bogies
      Does anyone the extent to which the 158s and 170s drew on APT technology? To me the bogies look similar to the end trailer bogies on the P trains. Is this purely cosmetic or are the designs linked. I'm guessing that there must have been a fair transfer of staff and technology as Litchurh Lane moved into DMUs.
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1746 From: Nigel richards Date: 09/05/2005
      Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
      mmmmmmmmmmm come to think of it they do look simular. even the mk4 coaches on the ic225s are a little differant but look almost the same design.
       
      nigel richards
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: jengimac
      Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:44 PM
      Subject: <APT Group> APT Legacy - Bogies

      Does anyone the extent to which the 158s and 170s drew on APT technology? To me the bogies look similar to the end trailer bogies on the P trains. Is this purely cosmetic or are the designs linked. I'm guessing that there must have been a fair transfer of staff and technology as Litchurh Lane moved into DMUs.




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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1747 From: Gerry Bates Date: 09/05/2005
      Subject: Re[2]: APT Legacy - Bogies
      I think that any similarities are down to the fact that all bogies require certain features and characteristics. As bogie design becomes more sophisticated then common features are bound to become apparent.
       
      As regards the Mk IV bogies, it was originally proposed to fit the BREL designed bogies as fitted to the 158s and there appeared to be some underhand business going on when Swiss company SIG got the order. No-one would explain to me why a bogie, completely untested in this country, should be chosen instead of the home product.
       
      They should have learned the lesson from the Swiss Schlieren bogie design used under the Midland Pullman diesel trains in the 60s, which similarly gave a bad ride. The Mk IVs have only been improved by the use of inter-vehicle dampers.
       
      The 158 bogies seem to have been a bit of a design backwater as most modern UK emu and dmu bogies appear to be in direct lineage from those designed by BR for the 150s and 313s onwards, which were even fitted under Mk III coach bodies in the form of the Class 442 Wessex Electric units for speeds up to 100mph.. Only the non-tilting Voyagers depart from this with an inside frame design which originated at BR Research.
       
      Cheers
       
      Gerry
       
      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

      On 09/05/2005 at 08:01 Nigel richards wrote:
      mmmmmmmmmmm come to think of it they do look simular. even the mk4 coaches on the ic225s are a little differant but look almost the same design.
       
      nigel richards
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: jengimac
      Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:44 PM
      Subject: <APT Group> APT Legacy - Bogies

      Does anyone the extent to which the 158s and 170s drew on APT technology? To me the bogies look similar to the end trailer bogies on the P trains. Is this purely cosmetic or are the designs linked. I'm guessing that there must have been a fair transfer of staff and technology as Litchurh Lane moved into DMUs.




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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1748 From: Andrew Moglestue Date: 09/05/2005
      Subject: Re: Is it right to hate Maggie
      There are also other factors involved. Countries such as Germany or
      France don't have long distance coach networks of the type we have in
      Britain that are allowed to operate in direct competition to the
      railways. They are simply not allowed. These operations have siphoned
      away a lot of railway revenue and market share and given nothing in
      return. People who rely on trains care about trains, and people who
      care about trains vote people into power who care about trains. This
      is why Beeching was the beginning of a dangerous negative spiral.
      Take away trains and then people stop caring about trains. Trains
      lose a lobby and a voice and the degradation and running down
      accelerates unbraked. This is why many regional railways in the UK
      are now in such a sorry state - if more people genuinely depended on
      them this wouldn't have been allowed to happen. The result is a
      railway system struggling to get the money it needs for the most
      urgent repairs and unable to seriously contemplate long term
      strategic development- and this despite the highest fares in Europe.

      Andrew
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1749 From: Andrew Moglestue Date: 09/05/2005
      Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
      And a design which hadn't been designed for the speeds intended. In
      Swiss domestic services, the fastest scheduled speed today is 100mph.
      15 years ago when these bogies were built, it was about 85mph. So not
      exactly a high-speed tried design by any standards.

      Andrew

      "Gerry Bates" wrote:

      > I think that any similarities are down to the fact that all bogies
      require certain features and characteristics. As bogie design becomes
      more sophisticated then common features are bound to become apparent.

      As regards the Mk IV bogies, it was originally proposed to fit the
      BREL designed bogies as fitted to the 158s and there appeared to be
      some underhand business going on when Swiss company SIG got the order.
      No-one would explain to me why a bogie, completely untested in this
      country, should be chosen instead of the home product.
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1750 From: jengimac Date: 09/05/2005
      Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
      Thanks to everyone for the points raised. I travel and work every day in a 170 (refinement of 158 bogie?) and find that the ride is excellent. I would say better than the a Mark 3 or 4.

      I agree that the SIG bogie procurement is a mystery. Could it have been a case of someone eager to show that out-sourcing could beat the 'boffins'? The whole Mark 4 coach is a mystery to me, a real fudge: heavy and claustrophobic (for no good reason as it turned out). But 30 years on, the ideas behind the APT seem to have taken hold rather more, than the excentricities of IC225 (e.g. the idea of class 91s hauling freightliners overnight).

      I think it's a real shame that we didn't get to see what a meld of C91 and disk braked APT trailers could have done on the West Coast. Probably a better investment than all those C90+DVTs which are now lying around...

      --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Moglestue" <amogles@y...> wrote:
      > And a design which hadn't been designed for the speeds intended. In
      > Swiss domestic services, the fastest scheduled speed today is 100mph.
      > 15 years ago when these bogies were built, it was about 85mph. So not
      > exactly a high-speed tried design by any standards.
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      > "Gerry Bates" wrote:
      >
      > > I think that any similarities are down to the fact that all bogies
      > require certain features and characteristics. As bogie design becomes
      > more sophisticated then common features are bound to become apparent.
      >
      > As regards the Mk IV bogies, it was originally proposed to fit the
      > BREL designed bogies as fitted to the 158s and there appeared to be
      > some underhand business going on when Swiss company SIG got the order.
      > No-one would explain to me why a bogie, completely untested in this
      > country, should be chosen instead of the home

      product.
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1751 From: Gerry Bates Date: 10/05/2005
      Subject: Re[2]: APT Legacy - Bogies
      Andrew

      I always thought that the 170 bogie had more in common with the 150 bogie than the 158. Doesn't the 158 bogie have a nest of springs on each side of the axlebox, with a traction rod (I'm not sure of the bogie nomenclature!) between the frame and the axlebox to keep the axle in line, whereas the 150 and 170 have an axlebox pivoted from the frame on the inboard side and a single nest of springs on the outboard side?

      Cheers

      Gerry

      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

      On 09/05/2005 at 22:49 jengimac wrote:

      >Thanks to everyone for the points raised. I travel and work every day in
      >a 170 (refinement of 158 bogie?) and find that the ride is excellent. I
      >would say better than the a Mark 3 or 4.
      >
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1752 From: jengimac Date: 13/05/2005
      Subject: Re: APT Legacy - Bogies
      I think you might be right Gerry, I had a look today. I see what you mean about the springs etc. - although the 170 has some common features with the 158 (BREL T4) which the 150 didn't have.

      So was the 158 bogie basically what BREL proposed for the Mk 4? Reading some old issues of Modern Railways, the evolution from APT seems to have run something like this:

      1) APT articulated bogies rode 'badly' but, non-artic BT12 rode well
      2) Articulation and the HK brake dropped for APT-U
      3) Adaptation of BT12 for disk braking started...
      4) ...but the result was a completely new bogie presumably the T4?
      5) By this time APTU had morphed into IC225 and somehow the T4 was dropped in favour of the SIG

      Could it be that the SIG gained favour because the T4 was totally new and unproven - too different from the proven BT12? This would also suggest that the T4 was designed to tilt as this was an option for the Mk 4. Finally, you mentioned the Voyager bogie - where does that fit in?


      --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry Bates" <gerry@w...> wrote:
      > Andrew
      >
      > I always thought that the 170 bogie had more in common with the 150 bogie than the 158. Doesn't the 158 bogie have a nest of springs on each side of the axlebox, with a traction rod (I'm not sure of the bogie nomenclature!) between the frame and the axlebox to keep the axle in line, whereas the 150 and 170 have an axlebox pivoted from the frame on the inboard side and a single nest of springs on the outboard side?
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1753 From: Andy Appleton Date: 19/05/2005
      Subject: APT-P Driver 'Tommy Farr' Retires

      Virgin’s fastest driver on the West Coast, Tommy Farr, has retired in style with his speed record still intact. Tommy set a record of 1hour 53 minutes and 52 seconds for a non-stop 184-mile run from London to Manchester on 20 September 2004. He then went on to shave a further 16 seconds off the speed record on the return journey to London.

      It was appropriate that one of Tommy’s last passenger train duties was at the controls of 29 April’s 12:45 Pendolino from Manchester to London, with which Tommy arrived early into London’s Euston station.

      The son of a Stockport railwayman, 65-year-old Tommy, who now lives in London, joined British Railways on 9 July 1956 and worked at the London area locomotive depots of Camden, Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Euston. He learned his craft on steam locomotives and drove diesel and electric trains before taking the Advanced Passenger Train – the first in Britain to tilt – from London to Preston. In recent times he has been in charge of the Virgin Pendolino and has also spent time training other drivers.

      Speaking at the launch of the West Coast Pendolino timetable last year, Tommy said: "I never thought I would see the day when tilting trains were back on track in Britain."
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1754 From: Kit Spackman Date: 20/05/2005
      Subject: Digest Number 750
      >before taking the Advanced Passenger Train - the first in Britain to tilt
      - from London to Preston. <

      Close anyway............

      Regards
      Kit