Messages in Advanced-Passenger-Train group. Page 28 of 68.

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1395 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 27/09/2004
Subject: Re: Here we go again
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1396 From: Adam Warr Date: 27/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1397 From: Nigel Richards Date: 27/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: PC1 and PC2 joined at last, well very very near
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1398 From: Gerry Bates Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: Re[2]: Here we go again
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1399 From: tony Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: Re: Here we go again
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1400 From: Paul Leadley Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: PC1 and PC2 to join TC1 and TC2.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1401 From: Brian Johnson Pianos Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: Re: Here we go again
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1402 From: Kit Spackman Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: APT Tilt sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1403 From: Kit Spackman Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: State of E-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1404 From: Paul Leadley Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: State of E-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1405 From: Rob Latham Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Business Blunders
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1406 From: Nigel Richards Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: State of E-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1407 From: Laurie Still Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Alternative breaking system?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1408 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: Alternative breaking system?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1409 From: ralphhodgeson Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: APT Tilt sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1410 From: Andrew Walker Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: State of APT-P
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1411 From: James R Moody Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Alternative breaking system?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1412 From: Nigel Richards Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: State of APT-P
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1413 From: Rob Latham Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1414 From: Adam Warr Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1415 From: Kit Spackman Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Pendelino v APT tilt systems
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1416 From: Gerry Bates Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re[2]: Alternative breaking system?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1417 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: New file uploaded to Advanced-Passenger-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1418 From: Paul Leadley Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: The new APT.......Powered by Spackman and Penny turbines!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1419 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: New file uploaded to Advanced-Passenger-Train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1420 From: Paul Leadley Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: The world smallest E train formation
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1421 From: ralphhodgeson Date: 02/10/2004
Subject: Re: Pendolino v APT tilt systems
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1422 From: Andy Appleton Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: ADMIN: September Month Review...
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1423 From: Andy Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: Pendelino v APT tilt systems
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1424 From: Gerry Bates Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: Re: Pendelino v APT tilt systems
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1426 From: Andy Appleton Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1427 From: Gerry Bates Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1428 From: Ian Ellis Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1429 From: Brian Johnson Pianos Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1430 From: Kit Spackman Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Tilt Sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1431 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re: Tilt Sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1432 From: Nigel Richards Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1433 From: Gerry Bates Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re[2]: Tilt Sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1434 From: Kit Spackman Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Tilt Sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1435 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 05/10/2004
Subject: Re: Tilt Sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1436 From: Kit Spackman Date: 07/10/2004
Subject: More tilt sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1437 From: Andy Appleton Date: 07/10/2004
Subject: Re: More tilt sensors
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1438 From: Paul Leadley Date: 08/10/2004
Subject: APT-E Powercar move put back until the 22nd October
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1439 From: ralphhodgeson Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E Powercar move put back until the 22nd October
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1440 From: bathmatus Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E Powercar move put back until the 22nd October
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1441 From: Kit Spackman Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: E-Train at Shildon
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1442 From: Laurie Still Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re: E-Train at Shildon
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1443 From: Gerry Bates Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re[2]: E-Train at Shildon
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1444 From: Den Date: 13/10/2004
Subject: History Repeats ??
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1445 From: Kit Spackman Date: 13/10/2004
Subject: Lack of tilt power?



Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1395 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 27/09/2004
Subject: Re: Here we go again
I would have been surprised if everything had gone well.

Interesting link from the second article to a review of the APT featuring
Rob Latham's pictures and some commentry by none other than a fellow by the
name of "Mr. Spackman"

Does anybody know exactly what kind of fault was detected with the 'wheels'?
Some kind of vibration or shock detector for flats? From the sound of
things, it was NOT a false alarm due to misdetection; mercifully the press
hasn't addressed that yet.

Cheap shot about the accident-prone WCML in my opinion, at the end of one of
those articles ... are they trying to drum up business for The Permanent
Way? ;-}
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1396 From: Adam Warr Date: 27/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!
Hadn't thought of that one, Rich. That would really look cool....

Perhaps the APT-P boys at Crewe could consider some of these liveries
for their next repaint!!!

Regards,
Adam Warr, Peterborough UK
Electra Railway Graphics
www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
Fotopic Site:
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Mackin [mailto:rich.mackin@...]
Sent: 27 September 2004 18:28
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!


Only one left is LMS 'Coronation Scot' livery :)

-Rich-

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Warr"
<adam.warr@n...> wrote:
> Yet another look at the APT - this time turning the clock back to
> pre-InterCity days...
>
> http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p7891263.html
>
> Regards,
> Adam Warr, Peterborough UK
> Electra Railway Graphics
> www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
> Fotopic Site:
> http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/






Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1397 From: Nigel Richards Date: 27/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: PC1 and PC2 joined at last, well very very near
Any idea guys when the apt-e power cars join there trailers at shildon?

nigel


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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1398 From: Gerry Bates Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: Re[2]: Here we go again
Strictly speaking, the first passenger train to reach 125mph - 126mph even - was that hauled by Mallard in 1938. It depends what you mean by a passenger train - does it have to have passengers other than railway staff?. Certainly the prototype HST reached that speed before APT-P, as did APT-E.
 
The idea of the APT was to reach higher speeds (higher than 125mph in fact) on existing track, the tilt providing comfort for the passengers when negotiating curves at higher than normal speeds. The advanced suspension was the feature which enable higher speeds on curves not, as many believe, the tilt, which was purely for passenger comfort. Higher speeds did require, however, changes to the signalling system.
 
Just as today's problems with a Pendolino are subjected to adverse, inaccurate press reports, so was the APT-P on its early service runs, being then completely ignored when it began to run without incident before the plug was pulled by the Thatcher Government.
 
Regards
 
Gerry Bates
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 27/09/04 at 18:59 Brian Johnson Pianos wrote:
History repeats!!
 
Emailing seems to be useless.  I saw the virgin site and there is an elemeant in these articles.
 
Was not the APT-P the first passenger train to reach 125mph?? and was the track set up for APT to tilt around corners allowing the train to run at an average higher speed??
 
Being 28 I do not know the full story, but from this group this is what I understand yet the press and Virgin site gives a different outlook
 
If the APT was the first then why is it all quiet, or did the media kill the project that badly??
 
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Wheat
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:07 PM
Subject: <APT Group> Here we go again

The media chortling didn't take long...

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=139235

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3693808.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-4517857,00.html

Nick




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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1399 From: tony Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: Re: Here we go again
Yes Brian it was also the first to travel at 150 and just over 160mph
too.Funny how the track needs upgrading as apt-p tilted on it in the
80s and that tilted more on corners than these pendolinos and super
voyagers.I myself had the pleasure of travelling on it from Preston
to Euston and return and it did 137mph then and it was an experience
i will never forget to my final day.

"Brian Johnson Pianos" <brian@b...> wrote:
> History repeats!!
>
> Emailing seems to be useless. I saw the virgin site and there is
an elemeant in these articles.
>
> Was not the APT-P the first passenger train to reach 125mph?? and
was the track set up for APT to tilt around corners allowing the
train to run at an average higher speed??
>
> Being 28 I do not know the full story, but from this group this is
what I understand yet the press and Virgin site gives a different
outlook
>
> If the APT was the first then why is it all quiet, or did the media
kill the project that badly??
>
> Brian
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1400 From: Paul Leadley Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: PC1 and PC2 to join TC1 and TC2.
Hi Guys,
Some more work is planned to take place on the 14/15th October and
then the powercars will be joining TC1 and TC2 sortly after that.

If I find out anything, I will let you all know.

Ive got loads of videos and photos of the PC1/TC1/PC2 split, I will
try and get them posted before the end of the week.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support group.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1401 From: Brian Johnson Pianos Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: Re: Here we go again
Wow Tony.
 
I remember as a boy pestering my parents to take me on the APT, sadly it never happened.  I have not even seen either of the last two APTs in the flesh, or should I say metal.  Until I found these websites I thought that the APT's all were scrapped in the early to mid eighties I had no idea that they ran with success up to 1988!
 
I think that it should be made clear that the APT beat 125mph and that it was a british built and designed train that was illfated by the media also that it ran successfully for a number of years!
 
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: tony
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> Here we go again

Yes Brian it was also the first to travel at 150 and just over 160mph
too.Funny how the track needs upgrading as apt-p tilted on it in the
80s and that tilted more on corners than these pendolinos and super
voyagers.I myself had the pleasure of travelling on it from Preston
to Euston and return and it did 137mph then and it was an experience
i will never forget to my final day.

"Brian Johnson Pianos" <brian@b...> wrote:
> History repeats!!
>
> Emailing seems to be useless.  I saw the virgin site and there is
an elemeant in these articles.
>
> Was not the APT-P the first passenger train to reach 125mph?? and
was the track set up for APT to tilt around corners allowing the
train to run at an average higher speed??
>
> Being 28 I do not know the full story, but from this group this is
what I understand yet the press and Virgin site gives a different
outlook
>
> If the APT was the first then why is it all quiet, or did the media
kill the project that badly??
>
> Brian


Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1402 From: Kit Spackman Date: 28/09/2004
Subject: APT Tilt sensors
Gerry and Ralph,

>Kit can speak with more authority than me, of course, but the sensors will
be accelerometers - >measuring lateral acceleration.<

>When a body moves in a curve it requires a constant acceleration towards
the centre of the >curve. ..................... But the lateral
acceleration measured by the sensors is cancelled out - or >most of it
(it's useful to have a little residual lateral acceleration to prevent
motion sickness).

>To the passenger, going through a horizontal curve with tilt in operation
is really like going >through a vertical curve in terms of the forces on
the body.<

Nice one Gerry, want to transer to Tilt Development? <g>

On APT-E we had 5 accelerometers per vehicle, mounted on the centreline
both longitudinally and laterally. 4 of them were electro-servo
accelerometers that produced a high level DC signal proportional to lateral
acceleration. One was in the roof and one just under the floor, which added
together algebraically and with different apparent sensitivities produced a
lateral acceleration signal at hip height if you were sitting down. This is
the line along which the vehicle tilts, known as the Bing Line after Dr.
Alan Bing who decided where it should be. This pair of sensors were
duplicated for a second control channel.

The roof and floor accelerometers also produced a signal of roll rate which
was used as a stabilty term in the control system. The fifth accelerometer
acted as a 'long stop, co-located with the under floor main sensors,
measuring the overall lateral acceleration to act as a monitor. This
monitor accelerometer was of the 'electriconic spirit level' type using
conductive fluid in a curved tube. If this unit saw high levels of
acceleration it triggered a 'lane change' to the second duplicate control
channel, as the assumption was that the primary system had failed.

In practice we ran each test run on alternate channels so that each channel
saw an equal amount of work. As related in Hugh William's book, on a number
of occasions we had the monitor trigger a lane change to an already failed
channel, with the result that the vehicle fell over! It happened once with
a B R Board member riding on the train and at the time it failed he was
standing right alongside me! I managed to spoof him into thinking it was a
reliability test as we were only running about 10 mph at the time, but we
did have it happen on the test track at over 100 mph once.

Later tilt systems, like the APT-P system used not only accelerometers but
also position sensors to measure the position of the tilting bolster
relative to the secondary bogie frame. These sensors were Linear Variable
Differential Transformers (LVDTs) or plastic slide potentiometers (PSPs).
This type of system was first used in the 'Hastings Coach' with it's H4X
bogies and proved much more reliable than the APT-E system. In addition the
sensors were a lot cheaper than the servo accelerometers and LOADS more
reliable. We preferred the LVDTs as they were non-contacting, but they were
considerably more expensive than PSPs even though they were less prone to
failure.

In service APT-P used numerous mixes and matches of these sensor types
arranged in various different ways, and as Gerry says, it turned out that
NOT compensating for all the possible acceleration was overall more
comfortable for the passengers. This is in fact a lot more difficult to
allow for than full compensation, but who ever said life was fair? <g>

Hope that explains things a bit better. The full lecture goes on for over
an hour and a half <BG>

Regards
Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1403 From: Kit Spackman Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: State of E-Train
>Could the power cars ever be restarted and moved under their own
>power, or have the turbines/motors/axles completely seized/rusted up over
the years?<

With an infinite budget anything is possible.........

The largest problem with making E-Train run again would actually be WHERE
could we run it? There is nowhere on Network rail's metals that would be
approved for that, bearing in mind that the E-Train power cars were the
longest locos to ever run on BR and were well out of gauge at many places.
We had to have special gauge clearence for all the test runs.

After that we'd need turbine expertise and that's either in short supply or
non-existant. The turbines themselves were inhibited prior to the NRM
hand-over so they should be OK, and there are some zero houred turbines
still in NRM's hands. The generators and traction motors should respond to
'normal treatment' but things like the HK brake would be almost impossible
to sort out these days, there isn't an H-K brake equivalent of me about.

The bogies are in good running shape. When we split PC1 from TC1 last week
we astonished the NRM and contract guys by pushing the intermediate E1T
bogie by HAND along the siding. It took 2 of us to start it and I could
roll it along on my own with no problems afterward. Somewhere Paul has
video of me doing it. I don't think bearings seizing will be an
issue.......

As to making it tilt again, just give me the time and the money! <g>

The money is the key to it all of course.

Regards
Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1404 From: Paul Leadley Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: State of E-Train
The video Kit is talking about will be part of the next web site
update, later this week, with a bit of luck.

Amazing really after all these years, she still rolls like a dream.

Watch the web site.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@c...> wrote:
>
> >Could the power cars ever be restarted and moved under their own
> >power, or have the turbines/motors/axles completely seized/rusted
up over
> the years?<
>
> With an infinite budget anything is possible.........
>
> The largest problem with making E-Train run again would actually
be WHERE
> could we run it? There is nowhere on Network rail's metals that
would be
> approved for that, bearing in mind that the E-Train power cars
were the
> longest locos to ever run on BR and were well out of gauge at many
places.
> We had to have special gauge clearence for all the test runs.
>
> After that we'd need turbine expertise and that's either in short
supply or
> non-existant. The turbines themselves were inhibited prior to the
NRM
> hand-over so they should be OK, and there are some zero houred
turbines
> still in NRM's hands. The generators and traction motors should
respond to
> 'normal treatment' but things like the HK brake would be almost
impossible
> to sort out these days, there isn't an H-K brake equivalent of me
about.
>
> The bogies are in good running shape. When we split PC1 from TC1
last week
> we astonished the NRM and contract guys by pushing the
intermediate E1T
> bogie by HAND along the siding. It took 2 of us to start it and I
could
> roll it along on my own with no problems afterward. Somewhere Paul
has
> video of me doing it. I don't think bearings seizing will be an
> issue.......
>
> As to making it tilt again, just give me the time and the money!
<g>
>
> The money is the key to it all of course.
>
> Regards
> Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1405 From: Rob Latham Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Business Blunders
I have just purchaed this book off eBay - the seller has another copy
available see -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2490585137

It contains a section on the APT project


Rob
www.apt-p.com
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1406 From: Nigel Richards Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: State of E-Train
hi paul
yep she seems to been upto shildon yesterday and touched one of the trailers
god i didnt realise how thin the body is. pitty though about the condidtion
on the apt-p power car there it was almost making me cry by the state of it.

nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@...>
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:47 AM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: State of E-Train


> The video Kit is talking about will be part of the next web site
> update, later this week, with a bit of luck.
>
> Amazing really after all these years, she still rolls like a dream.
>
> Watch the web site.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
> <101453.3657@c...> wrote:
>>
>> >Could the power cars ever be restarted and moved under their own
>> >power, or have the turbines/motors/axles completely seized/rusted
> up over
>> the years?<
>>
>> With an infinite budget anything is possible.........
>>
>> The largest problem with making E-Train run again would actually
> be WHERE
>> could we run it? There is nowhere on Network rail's metals that
> would be
>> approved for that, bearing in mind that the E-Train power cars
> were the
>> longest locos to ever run on BR and were well out of gauge at many
> places.
>> We had to have special gauge clearence for all the test runs.
>>
>> After that we'd need turbine expertise and that's either in short
> supply or
>> non-existant. The turbines themselves were inhibited prior to the
> NRM
>> hand-over so they should be OK, and there are some zero houred
> turbines
>> still in NRM's hands. The generators and traction motors should
> respond to
>> 'normal treatment' but things like the HK brake would be almost
> impossible
>> to sort out these days, there isn't an H-K brake equivalent of me
> about.
>>
>> The bogies are in good running shape. When we split PC1 from TC1
> last week
>> we astonished the NRM and contract guys by pushing the
> intermediate E1T
>> bogie by HAND along the siding. It took 2 of us to start it and I
> could
>> roll it along on my own with no problems afterward. Somewhere Paul
> has
>> video of me doing it. I don't think bearings seizing will be an
>> issue.......
>>
>> As to making it tilt again, just give me the time and the money!
> <g>
>>
>> The money is the key to it all of course.
>>
>> Regards
>> Kit
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1407 From: Laurie Still Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Alternative breaking system?
Dear all,
Kit wrote recently that HK brake restoration would be
difficult due to lack of expertise. Given the
hypothetical blank cheque what alternatives are there?
Technology must have moved on now. What does the
pendolino do?

Laurie





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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1408 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: Alternative breaking system?
I believe most of the current high-speed systems use some variant of disc
brakes -- I include eddy-current cheek plates in that category.

To paraphrase what Kit noted before about tilt systems, the entire practical
revolution in electronic antilock brake systems and proportioning occurred
after the age of the APT, and represent a much less expensive and 'fiddly'
(and probably less massive) method of assuring high-performance braking than
the HK system.

The HK brake represents a different approach, and I think a somewhat
better-thought-out one, to a slightly different question: how do you
implement very-high-speed braking WITHOUT CAUSING HIGH FRICTIONAL HEATING OF
THE TRAIN WHEELS. Current forms of high-performance disc brakes have to
dissipate considerable heat after even one high-speed check -- there are a
variety of safety and comfort considerations associated with this, and also
a certain amount of unavoidable noise (and odors!) The HK brake
successfully dissipates this energy both with lower peak temperatures and
with the ability to transfer brake heat to reservoirs (or even heat-recovery
subsystems) without compromising braking effectiveness.

Whether or not these advantages would be sufficiently compelling to justify
the greater cost and complexity of a HK system on modern trains is not clear
to me -- the kinds of service being run with very-high-speed trains so far
do not involve heavy and frequent braking runs. It would be interesting to
see how a hybrid energy-recovery system would work with HK brakes acting as
'pumps' (in conjunction with traction-motor regenerative braking from
powered axles, which with synthesized-AC drives can provide meaningful regen
down to very low speeds, as well as 'synthesized braking' even at zero rpm)

RME
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1409 From: ralphhodgeson Date: 29/09/2004
Subject: Re: APT Tilt sensors
Gerry and Kit

thanks for the info on APT tilt, but I really wanted to know how that
compared to the system on Pendolino and Super Voayger ?

Thanks


Ralph
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1410 From: Andrew Walker Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: State of APT-P
Have a look at the new (Locomotion) shildon site:

APT-P power car in a dreadful state.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/html/home_pb/menu.asp

Hopefully it will get a repaint, now it's inside or maybe those vinyl's we
were talking about.

Andrew
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1411 From: James R Moody Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Alternative breaking system?
> Dear all,
> Kit wrote recently that HK brake restoration would be
> difficult due to lack of expertise. Given the
> hypothetical blank cheque what alternatives are there?
> Technology must have moved on now. What does the
> pendolino do?

But would you want to change the way something works in order to get it to
run again? Would it not be better being well cared for, in original
condition, but not charging around at high speed, than heavily modified so
it can once more run at 150mph+?

James Moody
--
(¯\ _ | aka: Major Denis Bloodnok
\ \ / ) | ICQ: 7000473
\ \___/ / |
|/ _)| ) | No more can they keep us in
( (|_| ) | Listen, damn it, we will win
\ / | They see it right, they see it well
|====| | But they think this saves us from our hell
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1412 From: Nigel Richards Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: State of APT-P
hi andrew i hope so i almost cried when i saw the state it is in.

nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Walker" <andy@...>
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:54 AM
Subject: <APT Group> Re: State of APT-P


> Have a look at the new (Locomotion) shildon site:
>
> APT-P power car in a dreadful state.
>
> http://www.nrm.org.uk/html/home_pb/menu.asp
>
> Hopefully it will get a repaint, now it's inside or maybe those vinyl's we
> were talking about.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1413 From: Rob Latham Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!
> Perhaps the APT-P boys at Crewe could consider some of these
liveries
> for their next repaint!!!


Funny you should suggest that - we do have a lot of Rail Blue paint
in stock ! - incidently what program do you use to create
your 'repaints' ??


Best Wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1414 From: Adam Warr Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re: Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!
Hi Rob,

Go on, I dare you :-)

I do the artworks on Macromedia Freehand (the same prog I use for the
ERG sides, etc). It's a wonderful program, though not cheap, which makes
repainting stock easy.

Regards,
Adam Warr, Peterborough UK
Electra Railway Graphics
www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
Fotopic Site:
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Latham [mailto:rob@...]
Sent: 30 September 2004 13:23
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: Fotopic Update - APT Goes Retro!


> Perhaps the APT-P boys at Crewe could consider some of these
liveries
> for their next repaint!!!


Funny you should suggest that - we do have a lot of Rail Blue paint
in stock ! - incidently what program do you use to create
your 'repaints' ??


Best Wishes


Rob
www.apt-p.com






Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1415 From: Kit Spackman Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Pendelino v APT tilt systems
Ralph,

>thanks for the info on APT tilt, but I really wanted to know how that
>compared to the system on Pendolino and Super Voayger ?<

I'm afraid I'm not that au fait with the Pendelino tilt system details. I
wish I was, but either they are playing their cards close to their chest or
I'm not reading the right books................

Super Voyagers ARE APT-Ps as far as tilting is concerned. The systems come
almost directly from the Swedish X-2000 system, which in turn came from
P-Train, via Adtranz, Bombardier et al, probably even Ford for all I know!
Thus they use swinging bolsters and servo-hydraulics to shift them, with
accelerometers and LVDTs to sense the bolster position.

If anyone knows any comparitive magazine articles etc. concerning this I'd
be pleased to hear of them.

Regards
Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1416 From: Gerry Bates Date: 30/09/2004
Subject: Re[2]: Alternative breaking system?
As long as it didn't go too fast then the friction breaks could be used. These are only suitable for lower speeds and were fitted because the HK brake becomes useless at lower speeds.

Regards

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 29/09/04 at 17:32 James R Moody wrote:

>> Dear all,
>> Kit wrote recently that HK brake restoration would be
>> difficult due to lack of expertise. Given the
>> hypothetical blank cheque what alternatives are there?
>> Technology must have moved on now. What does the
>> pendolino do?
>
>But would you want to change the way something works in order to get it to
>run again? Would it not be better being well cared for, in original
>condition, but not charging around at high speed, than heavily modified so
>it can once more run at 150mph+?
>
>James Moody
>--
>(¯\       _  | aka: Major Denis Bloodnok
> \ \     / ) | ICQ: 7000473
>  \ \___/ /  |
>   |/ _)| )  | No more can they keep us in
>   ( (|_| )  | Listen, damn it, we will win
>    \    /   | They see it right, they see it well
>    |====|   | But they think this saves us from our hell
>
>
>
>
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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1417 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: New file uploaded to Advanced-Passenger-Train
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Advanced-Passenger-Train
group.

File : /bogie.wmv
Uploaded by : Silver_Dream_Racer <PAUL@...>
Description : APT powered by Spackman and Penny turbines.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/files/bogie.wmv

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

Silver_Dream_Racer <PAUL@...>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1418 From: Paul Leadley Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: The new APT.......Powered by Spackman and Penny turbines!
Hi All,
See the video Kit was taking about, a taste of things to come.

Look in the files section under bogie move.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1419 From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: New file uploaded to Advanced-Passenger-Train
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Advanced-Passenger-Train
group.

File : /2_Car_E-Train.wmv
Uploaded by : Silver_Dream_Racer <PAUL@...>
Description : Shortest ever E-train formation.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/files/2_Car_E-Train.wmv

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

Silver_Dream_Racer <PAUL@...>
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1420 From: Paul Leadley Date: 01/10/2004
Subject: The world smallest E train formation
Ive also added a quick video showing PC1 and PC2 back to back.

Look in the files section under 2_car_e-train.wmv

Both files require Media Player 9 installed

Regards

Paul
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1421 From: ralphhodgeson Date: 02/10/2004
Subject: Re: Pendolino v APT tilt systems
Once again thanks Kit for that info. If anyone does know about such
an article can they post the details on this group.

Ralph
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1422 From: Andy Appleton Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: ADMIN: September Month Review...
Hi and just a few comments from the Group Owner...

Wow!!! September 2004 - What a month:

E-train on the move, a record number of messages posted 155 - the highest number EVER in the history of this group! Membership is also at an all time high = 220 (+ 4 'bouncing' members) A great big WELCOME to all of those who have recently joined us.

Its now over four years since the group was created and their have been some superb contributions during that time. A really big "THANK YOU" to everyone who has taken the time and trouble to post. It takes every member to make a group whether poster, reader or both.. Thank you all - I hope you will all continue in the future.....
 
Long Live The APT.....
Andy
(Group Owner)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1423 From: Andy Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: Pendelino v APT tilt systems
Their is a "Special Report" all about the class 390 Pendolino in the
current issue (October 2004) of 'Modern Railways' magazine - the APT-
P even gets a mention & photo!!

The Pendolino tilt mechanism uses electric actuation, here's some
info from the magazine:

"While earlier trains used hydraulic rams to tilt the coach bodies
over as the train entered a curve, Virgin's Pendolino train uses
electric actuators in a state of the art tilt system.

Speeds round curves on railway lines are limited by passenger
comfort, not safety. The faster a train goes round a curve, the
greater the centrifugal force generated: long before there was any
risk of the train derailing, plates and drinks would be sliding off
tables.

As Pendolino enters a curve two sets of sensors in the tilt system
control the tilt actuators. First, a very sensitive electronic
gyroscope detects that the track is starting to cant. This starts
the coaches tilting. Then, as the curve builds up, sensors on each
coach detect the increasing centrifugal force and instruct the
actuators to tilt the train to maintain passenger comfort. As the
train leaves the curve the tilt is gradually removed."

More information about Pendolino can be found in the magazine =
several pages of it!

Take Care,
Andy

http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net


<Kit Spackman wrote:>

I'm afraid I'm not that au fait with the Pendelino tilt system
details. <snip> If anyone knows any comparitive magazine articles
etc. concerning this I'd be pleased to hear of them.
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1424 From: Gerry Bates Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: Re: Pendelino v APT tilt systems
So, to settle the question on what sensors are used:
  1. ". . . a very sensitive electronic gyroscope . . ." A gyroscope measures change in attitude in 3 dimensions. All that was needed here was an inclinometer to measure changes of angle in the lateral plane of attitude caused by the cant. Whatever it is, it is akin to the APT system which used an accelerometer on the vehicle ahead to warn the system to be ready to tilt.
  2. ". . . increasing centrifugal force . . ." Strictly speaking you can't measure force without reference to the body which is taking the equal and opposite force -and it depends on mass anyway - so this is a measurement of the acceleration towards the centre of the curve. So it's an accelerometer
Regards
 
Gerry Bates
 
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 03/10/04 at 14:39 Andy wrote:

>Their is a "Special Report" all about the class 390 Pendolino
in the
>current issue (October 2004) of 'Modern Railways' magazine - the
APT-
>P even gets a mention & photo!!
>
>The Pendolino
tilt mechanism uses electric actuation, here's some
>info from the
magazine:
>
>"While earlier trains used hydraulic rams to tilt the
coach bodies
>over as the train entered a curve, Virgin's Pendolino train
uses
>electric actuators in a state of the art tilt
system.
>
>Speeds round curves on railway lines are limited by
passenger
>comfort, not safety. The faster a train goes round a curve,
the
>greater the centrifugal force generated: long before there was any
>risk of the train derailing, plates and drinks would be sliding off
>tables.
>
>As Pendolino enters a curve two sets of sensors
in the tilt system
>control the tilt actuators. First, a very sensitive
electronic
>gyroscope detects that the track is starting to cant. This
starts
>the coaches tilting. Then, as the curve builds up, sensors on
each
>coach detect the increasing centrifugal force and instruct the
>actuators to tilt the train to maintain passenger comfort. As the
>train leaves the curve the tilt is gradually
removed."
>
>More information about Pendolino can be found in the
magazine =
>several pages of it!
>
>Take
Care,
>Andy
>
>http://AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net
>
>
>
wrote: Spackman>
>
>I'm afraid I'm not that au fait with the
Pendelino tilt system
>details. If anyone knows any comparitive
magazine articles
>etc. concerning this I'd be pleased to hear of
them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1426 From: Andy Appleton Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
In the October 2004 issue of 'Modern Railways' magazine there is a special report about Virgin's Pendolino which includes a photo of the P-train next to 390 006 in June 2002., here's what is said about the APT project:
 
"In December 1968 development of the Advanced Passenger Train was authorised. An experimental gas-turbine train, the APT-E, was to be built, followed by four prototype electric ATP-P (<<ATP? - yes, that's what it actually says in the mag - answers on a postcard please!>>) units, to be in service in 1974. The experimental train was a success, the crowning glory of the test programme being a 58.5-minute 101.6 mph sprint over the difficult London-Leicester line. The programme slipped: the 'P' (for production) trains were not ordered until 1974, and then only three. The aim now was for service running in 1977. However, it was the middle of that year before the first power-car appeared, and the first complete train was not ready till 1979. A scheme for the acquisition of 60 trains, with the delivery from 1983 and squadron service from 1984, taking over the West Coast main line and delivering a step-change in service quality, was developed. It never happened."
 
Take Care,
Andy
 
 
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1427 From: Gerry Bates Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Sorry, I can't afford a postcard!
 
ATP (Automatic Train Protection) was being developed for the APT - so it was obviously a subliminal slip!
 
Regards
 
Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 03/10/04 at 16:24 Andy Appleton wrote:
In the October 2004 issue of 'Modern Railways' magazine there is a special report about Virgin's Pendolino which includes a photo of the P-train next to 390 006 in June 2002., here's what is said about the APT project:
 
"In December 1968 development of the Advanced Passenger Train was authorised. An experimental gas-turbine train, the APT-E, was to be built, followed by four prototype electric ATP-P (<<ATP? - yes, that's what it actually says in the mag - answers on a postcard please!>>) units, to be in service in 1974. The experimental train was a success, the crowning glory of the test programme being a 58.5-minute 101.6 mph sprint over the difficult London-Leicester line. The programme slipped: the 'P' (for production) trains were not ordered until 1974, and then only three. The aim now was for service running in 1977. However, it was the middle of that year before the first power-car appeared, and the first complete train was not ready till 1979. A scheme for the acquisition of 60 trains, with the delivery from 1983 and squadron service from 1984, taking over the West Coast main line and delivering a step-change in service quality, was developed. It never happened."
 
Take Care,
Andy
 

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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1428 From: Ian Ellis Date: 03/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
>ATP (Automatic Train Protection) was being developed for the APT

It obviously didn't work as the devil (Maggie Thatcher) destroyed it!!!!!!

Ian

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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1429 From: Brian Johnson Pianos Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
Remember Maggie or Iron Lady did not like the railways and tried to turn Euro Tunnel into a road tunnel, why the hell would she like APT?
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Ellis
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)

>ATP (Automatic Train Protection) was being developed for the APT

It obviously didn't work as the devil (Maggie Thatcher) destroyed it!!!!!!

Ian

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger


Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1430 From: Kit Spackman Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Tilt Sensors
Gery and Andy,

>>". . . a very sensitive electronic gyroscope . . ." <<

>All that was needed here was an inclinometer to measure changes of angle
in the lateral plane of attitude >caused by the cant. Whatever it is, it is
akin to the APT system which used an accelerometer on the vehicle >ahead to
warn the system to be ready to tilt.<

Hm, yes, I thought that too, but I suppose a gyro could measure the yaw
coming on at the start of a curve, and could act as a tilt initiator.

I doubt the start of cant would be measurable over the normal level of
track induced 'noise' though. They'd certainly need a sensitive gyro in
order to start things happening fast enough, electric actuators having
inherently higher friction and therefore slower initial response than
hydraulics.

>>". . . increasing centrifugal force . . ."<<

>Strictly speaking you can't measure force without reference to the body
which is taking the equal and opposite >force -and it depends on mass
anyway - so this is a measurement of the acceleration towards the centre of
the >curve. So it's an accelerometer.<

Indeed. That sounds like magazine 'tech speak'. They don't understand it
properly so they add confusion so no-one else does either.

Then they get letters from me! <g>

I've seen some reference to the fact that 390s use a pre-programmed tilt
amount per curve with train speed being a modifier in the control 'loop'.
Strictly speaking there wouldn't be a 'loop' in this case as it's plainly
an open loop system. The gyro could initiate the process, the programme
could tilt the vehicle body to a predetermined amount for each curve and
the speed would decide what percentage of it got through to the actuators.
That'd work just fine so long as nothing went wrong, just like E and P
Train.

Of course it couldn't do E-Train's party trick of standing level in
stations on a curve, like Wellingborough.

Regards
Kit (who's off to get the mag tomorrow)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1431 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re: Tilt Sensors
This is fun to watch.

A 'sensitive gyro' makes a perfectly fine clinometer for the roll axis.
Just because you ignore the thing's motion in yaw and pitch doesn't change
that.

What your 'accelerometer' is measuring in a curve certainly isn't
"centrifugal force", and might not even be a resultant of restoring force.
My understanding would be that all you need is an appropriately damped
"electronic plumb bob" to determine local "vertical" (e.g. normal to the car
floor) and run the tilt to keep that centered, then perform a small
electronic offset or trim to give the desired amount of under-correction.
Inherently runs in full servo, doesn't require feedback loops to the
actuators, etc.

Of course, you can mimick such a device with a couple of integrating
accelerometers, provide dissimilar systems for non-common-mode redundancy,
etc...
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1432 From: Nigel Richards Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)
she didnt she even wanted more routes to be closed too but she didnt have her way just about. well good thing is at least the tables have turned and her son is in prison for spying.
 
nigel 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)

Remember Maggie or Iron Lady did not like the railways and tried to turn Euro Tunnel into a road tunnel, why the hell would she like APT?
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Ellis
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: <APT Group> APT-P / Modern Railways Magazine (Oct 04)

>ATP (Automatic Train Protection) was being developed for the APT

It obviously didn't work as the devil (Maggie Thatcher) destroyed it!!!!!!

Ian

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1433 From: Gerry Bates Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Re[2]: Tilt Sensors
On 03/10/04 at 20:21 Robert M. Ellsworth wrote:

>This is fun to watch.
>
>A 'sensitive gyro' makes a perfectly fine clinometer for the roll axis.
>Just because you ignore the thing's motion in yaw and pitch doesn't change
>that.

A "sensitive gyro" might be a press misinterpretation or an informant's simplification but it would be overkill for the job, unnecessarily expensive and complicated and more prone to failure
>
>What your 'accelerometer' is measuring in a curve certainly isn't
>"centrifugal force", and might not even be a resultant of restoring force.
 
An accelerometer obviously doesn't measure force although the force on a body experiencing a measured acceleration could be computed from its mass. Newton's second law of motion states that a force operating on a mass which is accelerated will exhibit a force with a magnitude F=ma. Conversely the accelerometer is measuring the force on its own internal mass.

>My understanding would be that all you need is an appropriately damped
>"electronic plumb bob"
An "electronic plumb bob" - or pendulum - is effectively an accelerometer. It requires a force to deflect it from its vertical position relative to the earth's surface and that force depends on its mass. However, the angle through which it moves will be independent of the mass and the angle will thus be a measure of acceleration.
 
Regards
Gerry Bates
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1434 From: Kit Spackman Date: 04/10/2004
Subject: Tilt Sensors
Robert,

>My understanding would be that all you need is an appropriately damped
>"electronic plumb bob" to determine local "vertical" (e.g. normal to the
car
>floor) and run the tilt to keep that centered,.....<

That's EXACTLY how we did it on E-Train. On one test the 'plumb bob' was my
head, with two micro-switches mounted about 1/2" either side of it! Worked
a treat at slow speeds, and as long as the Inspector didn't know what we
were doing <g>

>.... then perform a small electronic offset or trim to give the desired
amount of >under-correction. Inherently runs in full servo, doesn't require
feedback loops >to the actuators, etc.<

It doesn't? How do the actuators know which direction to go and how far?

The very fact that the sensors are used to 'run the tilt to keep that
centred' means it is a closed loop. With the under-correction in place the
loop is closed insofar as the system tilts to a position determined by the
under-correction adder rather than the 'zero lateral acceleration' position
of the sensor though.

Regards
Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1435 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 05/10/2004
Subject: Re: Tilt Sensors
I'd said

>> .... then perform a small electronic offset or trim to give the desired
>> amount of under-correction. Inherently runs in full servo, doesn't require
>> feedback loops >to the actuators, etc.<

and Kit said -- correctly without knowing my context (which wasn't clear)

> It doesn't? How do the actuators know which direction to go and how far?

What I meant was without feedback from the actuators to give relative
position (e.g. via our beloved LVDTs). The adder (or functional equivalent)
that gives the offset will give the right sum 'automatically' based upon
which 'side' of the bob is actuating. The 'feedback loop' is entirely
related to gravity and the instantaneous local orientation of the bob (as it
tilts in response to the active mechanism); logically there would be a small
'dead zone' on center, or some form of time-delay or buffering, to prevent
oscillations similar to 'porpoising' in aircraft control.

(By the way, I LOVE the story about the cephalic negative-cant-deficiency
sensor suite! That's what I call 'using your head for more than a
hatrack'...)

Now, of course, I was being somewhat rhetorical in describing the
'simplicity' of a tilt system controlled that way. In practice there would
be all sorts of other systems, both to improve response and to attempt to
provide fail-safe operation. For example, if each side of the 'bob' has a
strain gage that works in both tension and compression, the opposite side
can act as a cross-check or redundant system to determine the magnitude and
direction of tilt.

Naturally, a full practical system would use some sort of linear encoder to
determine the tilt mechanism's absolute excursion, rate of change, etc. and
this would be used to control and modulate the active tilt modus. I believe
digital encoders can be made better and cheaper than those with LVDTs at
present (there's a lot more processing and tinkering involved, but the
materials and cost are very small and, once fabricated, are much easier to
adjust and maintain). I would expect the Pendolino's system to use some
form of optical device for this -- my systems for suspension and valve gear
use a coded strip similar to the material used in CDs, with Gray-coded
information that is 'scanned' relative to a jittered laser pickup when the
active element moves. You can easily code some 'absolute' position markers
into this, and assign them any type of value 'in software', as well as get
the sort of pure differential information that LVDTs provide.

Gerry -- you'd be correct about the added cost and expense of the gyro if it
were a mechanical unit that was sourced uniquely for an advanced passenger
train. I had been assuming that 'sensitive gyro' was either a
second-sourced commercial navigation unit, for example from an obsolescent
aircraft, or was something easy to manufacture like a modern fiber ring
gyro. Note that regardless of the number of axes of 'tilt' you choose to
monitor with a ring gyro, most of the physics, and the fab cost, remains
constant. (Of course, these gyros are essentially immune to curve-entry
lateral acceleration per se, as their axes are vertical; they'll be mounted
with a top or bottom 'hinge' or gimbal in the appropriate plane, which will
cause them to tip on lateral acceleration and thereby induce the error
signal sent to the tilt mechanism for correction.) I'd be reluctant to use
only a lateral-plane accelerometer (e.g., cantilever-beam piezoelectric) for
this, as there are going to be moments in the suspension, of various kinds,
that I'd think would make 'clean' sensor information extremely rigorous to
acquire...

Correct me if I've missed something -- but my understanding about the balise
system was that it provided the appropriate 'prediction' of curve entry to
allow the system to be in full effective compensation without inherent lags.
It would be possible to incorporate enough information into circuitry in the
balises to be able to predict what the tilt system would do based on known
curve geometry and observed train speed -- but this would involve much more
complexity in the trackside systems and balise-to-train communications. So
I would suspect it's just a means of indicating something like 'distance to
curve entry' and 'permission to tilt' rather than a factor in intelligent
negative cant deficiency management (insert your chosen acronym or buzzwords
here, please ;-})
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1436 From: Kit Spackman Date: 07/10/2004
Subject: More tilt sensors
I was at BAe Systems at Plymouth today and in their Reception area display
cabinet is a photo of an Italian Pendelino at full tilt. (Oddly its has no
tumble-home whatsoever.....) Underneath it is a photo, and a real, BAe
Systems 'solid state gyro' which is purported to control the tilt system of
the train.

I asked the guy in reception if anyone close by knew about this and he
didn't, but during coffee break I mentioned it to the people who I was
working with. They introduced me to a guy who was the support engineer for
the gyro. He started off by trying to explain about track cant and spiral
curves <G> but I told him I already knew a little bit about it. (!)

After some chat it transpired he didn't know a fig about how the thing
controlled the tilt system, just the general principles, so I'm no further
forward. He didn't know if the same unit was used on the Virgin 390s
either, so I'm assuming they aren't.

I STILL can't find that Modern Railways issue, can anyone tell me what's on
the cover of that issue please?

Regards
Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1437 From: Andy Appleton Date: 07/10/2004
Subject: Re: More tilt sensors
A photo of the latest Modern Railways magazine cover can be found at:
 
 
Enjoy!
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----

I STILL can't find that Modern Railways issue, can anyone tell me what's on the cover of that issue please?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1438 From: Paul Leadley Date: 08/10/2004
Subject: APT-E Powercar move put back until the 22nd October
Hi All,
Ive just spoken to Andrew Goodman, and he has said that the APT-E
move will now take place on the 22nd October, thats the NRM - Thrall
move and then the low loading will take place over the weekend and
should be ready to be re-built on the following Monday.

I will keep you posted if anything changes.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1439 From: ralphhodgeson Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E Powercar move put back until the 22nd October
Paul

does that mean it won't be there when Tony Blair opens it then ?

Ralph

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
<PAUL@A...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> Ive just spoken to Andrew Goodman, and he has said that the APT-E
> move will now take place on the 22nd October, thats the NRM -
Thrall
> move and then the low loading will take place over the weekend and
> should be ready to be re-built on the following Monday.
>
> I will keep you posted if anything changes.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1440 From: bathmatus Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E Powercar move put back until the 22nd October
I THINK THAT THE OFFICIAL OPENING IS TO BE ON FRIDAY 29TH OCTOBER SO
IT SHOULD BE THERE AND BACK TOGETHER AGAIN IN TIME FOR BLAIR

Bathmatus

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "ralphhodgeson"
<ralphhodgeson@y...> wrote:
>
> Paul
>
> does that mean it won't be there when Tony Blair opens it then ?
>
> Ralph
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
> <PAUL@A...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> > Ive just spoken to Andrew Goodman, and he has said that the APT-E
> > move will now take place on the 22nd October, thats the NRM -
> Thrall
> > move and then the low loading will take place over the weekend
and
> > should be ready to be re-built on the following Monday.
> >
> > I will keep you posted if anything changes.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> > APT-E Conservation & Support Group
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1441 From: Kit Spackman Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: E-Train at Shildon
>I THINK THAT THE OFFICIAL OPENING IS TO BE ON FRIDAY 29TH OCTOBER SO
>IT SHOULD BE THERE AND BACK TOGETHER AGAIN IN TIME FOR BLAIR<

That's assuming the NRM Staff have actually taken on board the fact that
someone needs to cast some concrete abutments into the track centres to
hold down the outer ends of the two inner bogies.......

I've mentioned this at least four times up there and no-one takes a blind
bit of notice. Of course if they put the train back the way it's meant to
be, ie in 4 car form, they wouldn't have a problem. As it is our PM is
likely to be wondering why the inner ends of TC1 and TC2 are up pointing
down at the track.

Regards
Kit
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1442 From: Laurie Still Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re: E-Train at Shildon
Hi,
I've just read, in RBI, can't remember what it
stands for but it's a trade journal, that standing
passengers on pendolinos have on more than one
occasion been asked to de-train so that the service
could continue in tilting mode as their extra weight
was overloading the tilt mechanism.
Did the APT, in any of its forms, have similar
problems?
I am surprised the mainstream media hasn't picked
up on this. I can imagine a tabloid with a picture of
someone of Cyril Smiths stature with the caption 'The
wrong type of passenger'

Laurie





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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1443 From: Gerry Bates Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re[2]: E-Train at Shildon
I presume it's Rail Business Intelligence, a Railway Gazette associate publication which used to be called Rail Privatisation News.

Cheers

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/10/2004 at 16:05 Laurie Still wrote:

>Hi,
> I've just read, in RBI, can't remember what it
>stands for but it's a trade journal, that standing
>passengers on pendolinos have on more than one
>occasion been asked to de-train so that the service
>could continue in tilting mode as their extra weight
>was overloading the tilt mechanism.
> Did the APT, in any of its forms, have similar
>problems?
> I am surprised the mainstream media hasn't picked
>up on this. I can imagine a tabloid with a picture of
>someone of Cyril Smiths stature with the caption 'The
>wrong type of passenger'
>
>Laurie
>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
>Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
>http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
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>
>
>
>--
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Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1444 From: Den Date: 13/10/2004
Subject: History Repeats ??
The September 2004 issue of International Railway Journal carries an
interesting article regarding train design.

It appears that the Japanese are constructing a "pre-production" 300km/h
high speed Shinkansen tilting train. If the Japanese are adopting tilt
technology, then surely tilt design has fully come of age.

Also of interest is the design of the power car nose cone utilises a
"genetic algorithm", which has origins in the aircraft industry for use in
wing design. I seem to recall reading that the original APT-E development
team included a number of ex-aircraft industry engineers.

I wonder if the program might consider the following (humour):-

AST-E for Advanced Shinkansen Train - Experimental; AST-P; AST-S etc !!

Dennis W (Australia)
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1445 From: Kit Spackman Date: 13/10/2004
Subject: Lack of tilt power?
Laurie,

> I've just read, in RBI, can't remember what it stands for but it's a
trade journal, that standing
>passengers on pendolinos have on more than one occasion been asked to
de-train so that the service
>could continue in tilting mode as their extra weight was overloading the
tilt mechanism.<

The mind boggles...........

>Did the APT, in any of its forms, have similar problems?<

Not as far as I know.

E-Train, of course, never carried any paying passengers, altough there were
a few non-paying ones, from suppliers and the BR Board, who came along for
the ride. The tilt power available on both E and P Trains was about the
same, although the 'perceived excess tilt power' (a term I just invented
<g>) would have been less on P-Train as the coach mass was higher, not to
mention the normal load of passengers that was normally lacking on E-Train.

The tilt actuators and system pressures on both APTs were sized to produce
a particular tilt acceleration, that is the rate at which the body would
start to rotate about it's tilt axis. The mass of the coach body obviously
came into these calculations, not to mention the mass of passengers and
their luggage on P-Train. I don't think standing passengers were catered
for, although there would have been some excess power available to overcome
that. On E-Train I think we had about 25% more tilt power than we needed,
but I don't know the figures for P-Train. Don't forget that E-Train had the
highest performance tilt system ever built, even to this day, but we were
power mad then <g>

>I am surprised the mainstream media hasn't picked up on this. I can
imagine a tabloid with a picture of
>someone of Cyril Smiths stature with the caption 'The wrong type of
passenger'<

So am I! It's exactly the sort of thing our 'knocking copy' loving media
would grasp like a drowning man. There are two things that surprise me,
firstly that Virgin should even allow standing passengers on 390s, after
all it makes great play about it's computer-based booking system, so there
shouldn't BE any standing passengers. Secondly that Alstom should have
designed the system with so little excess power. After all, the train was
designed to run at 140 mph, presumably with similarly higher cant
defficiency so the system would have needed to tilt even faster than is
called for now at only 125 mph.

I know very little about the design of the electrical tilt actuators used
on the 390s, but it may be a space limitation problem. With a hydraulic
actuator you can generate more power by raising the hydraulic pressure, and
still take up the same amount of actuator space, albeit with a need to
change seals, and up-sizing the radiators etc. Whether that's possible with
an all-electric system I can't say.

Gerry, can you throw any light on this please?

Regards
Kit