Laurie (et al.

No idea that gets the word out is 'rubbish'. In fact, the only approaches
we shouldn't take are those that pose a risk of backlash.

One of my points about writing to the MPs is precisely that the
communication be in the form of a letter, not a 'communique', and that it be
sent in a form that's most likely to get his (or her) personal attention and
interest. Or the attention and interest of the member(s) of the staff who
will then take the time to bring the matter to personal attention...

Writing these letters is NOT a substitute for, as you say, writing to the
people you mention. It's not an 'either-or' situation, it's 'all of the
above'.

The only thing to avoid is making efforts that look too organized, or worse
yet act like lobbying. That is why I put out the appeal to contact anyone
who has political influence. Richard Branson is certainly one such. (I
would think that if you wanted additional funding or matching grants for APT
restoration this would be a most logical person to start with!)

Mr. Williams is a good example of a media figure with the interest, access,
and probably general point of view we'd benefit from. Who are the people
who specialize in transportation and/or industrial & business history at the
Times of London, the Manchester Guardian, the Economist, etc. etc. etc.?

Keep thinking of these ideas, everyone... "all of the above"...

RME

Andrew Jones wrote:

> Rob Latham wrote:
>
>>See
>>
>>http://www.apt-p.com/PROmt149-165p1.jpg
>>
>>http://www.apt-p.com/PROmt149-165p2.jpg
>>
>>a little hard to read - perhaps someone will kindly type it up for
>>me ???
>
>
> Interesting.
> I'll happily type it up. I'll get to it straight away unless someone's
> beat me to it... :)

Done!
http://andy29.port5.com/apt/index.html
--
Andrew Jones
http://www.trustphotosite.com/andy29
Please visit http://worldrallyradio.tk

Hi Paul, and fellow APTers.

I tried calling the Science Museum in London to see if I could speak to
someone who is responsible for acquisitions; or is of sufficient authority
to influence events at the NRM.

It seemed a logical step as the Science Museum is the parent organisation,
Mr Rees will have to answer to them if he succeeds in destroying the train.

Everyone was in a meeting today, but I'll try again.

I was told to either get in touch with either John Lissen (curator) on 0207
942 4282
e-mail john.lissen@...

or Jane Insley (curator and head of engineering) on 0207 942 4213.
e-mail jane.insley@...


Failing that the general switchboard number 0207 7942 4000


Katherine Bone

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Hi All,
Maybe all is no lost. Ive had SOME contact with Jim Rees, thanks to
Gerry.

The support group are to be consulted before anything happens to the
E train.

Lets hope that happens.

I will keep you all posted.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "katherine bone"
<khiaura@h...> wrote:

>
> Hi Paul, and fellow APTers.
>
> I tried calling the Science Museum in London to see if I could

speak to

> someone who is responsible for acquisitions; or is of sufficient

authority

> to influence events at the NRM.
>
> It seemed a logical step as the Science Museum is the parent

organisation,

> Mr Rees will have to answer to them if he succeeds in destroying

the train.

>
> Everyone was in a meeting today, but I'll try again.
>
> I was told to either get in touch with either John Lissen

(curator) on 0207

> 942 4282
> e-mail john.lissen@n...
>
> or Jane Insley (curator and head of engineering) on 0207 942 4213.
> e-mail jane.insley@n...
>
>
> Failing that the general switchboard number 0207 7942 4000
>
>
> Katherine Bone
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself with cool new emoticons

http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Attachments :

Hi All,
I have just set-up a windows media streaming server, as a test Ive
put an item on it about E train filmed at the NRM in Feb 2002.

Due to the upload speed of broadband, its limited to 256k, so if you
want to give it a try view it at night, and the later the better.

As I wont be using my link then.

http://uklivestreaming.com

Require media player 9 and also requires MMS port open if you are
behind a firewall.

If this test goes ok, then I will place my E train NRM videos on the
system and link to from the E train site.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Does anyone know if the APT-E will be open to the public during Railfest
(29th May - 6th June) at the NRM? Or will it just be on display?

TIA,
Ian

_________________________________________________________________
Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband

Hi,
This matter is being talked about right now, the NRM would like it
open, but Im sorry to say that the support group would prefer to have
the train closed at this time, due to running repairs to powercar 2
(the end the would have to open). We are working again at the
weekend (17th) and it will depent on how we get on with re-fitting
the boady panels just behind the cab.

I will try and keep you posted.

Regards

Paul
APT-E conservation & Support group.

PS. A pendolino is going to park next to E train, also E train is
being re-painted so it should be a splended photo opo.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Ellis"
<ianellis_68@h...> wrote:

> Does anyone know if the APT-E will be open to the public during

Railfest

> (29th May - 6th June) at the NRM? Or will it just be on display?
>
> TIA,
> Ian
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband

Attachments :

Attachments :

----- Original Message -----

From: Graham Turner

 

One of the production power cars after completion at Derby showing the InterCity APT branding.

(apologies for the 'slant'!)

 

Regards,

Gray.

 

http://www.RailBlue.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Appleton [mailto:AndyAppleton@...]
Sent: 19 April 2004 19:38
To: APT Group
Subject: <APT Group> 370 003 Photo 15/04/04

370 003 at the Railway Age, Crewe. I took this photo from a passing train on the WCML 15/04/04.

 

Enjoy!

Andy

 

Copyright © 2004 Andy Appleton

 

http://www.AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links

370 003 was repainted in 2002 - unfortunately they don't make paint
as good as they used to!

Andy

http://www.AA-Rail-Pics.fotopic.net

http://www.apt-p.com/APTPRepaint.htm

"Adam Warr" wrote:

> She's looking very faded now - I'm sure it wasn't long ago she was
> repainted.

Hi All,
Check out the E train website for the first photos, to see APT-E
getting re-painted, well TC1 at present anyway.

http://www.apt-e.org

I will try and get as much video and photos as I can while the train
gets painted.

Regards

Paul

I have added the only picture I have of an APT set at Carlisle to the
Photos section. I'm afraid that I have no dating information on the
picture.

Hello everyone,

I used to work for Connex South Central (sorry I needed the money!)
and I recall being told by a very knowledgable man that an APT had
been sold to Italy and had been used for development of their system.

I am doing a design course with the OU and am looking for some
information on this to illustrate just how British ideas are cast off
and sold to other countries. Does anyone have any information about
this? I would greatly appreciate any information anyone can give.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob,

>.......and I recall being told by a very knowledgable man that an APT had

been sold to Italy and had been used for >development of their system.<

Hmm, I rather doubt his 'knowledge' here I'm afraid, it's almost the other
way round.

Fiat were developing the Pendelino system at around the same time as we
were doing the APT-E at Derby. Indeed there's some doubt as to which was
the first one on the tracks, the Fiat single car Pendelino pre-dating
E-Train by a bit, but post-dating POP-Train. From the suspension point of
view, and especially the tilt system, the two trains differ markedly, and
the Pendelino did not use the 'Worn Wheel' profiles devopled by Dr. Alan
Wickens prior to the APT project getting under way. (I suspect current day
Pendelinos do though, it would be tough to go as fas a sthey do without
this technology)

The two systems went their own individual ways, BR eventually building the
three APT-P sets and Fiat going into production with multiple-unit
Pendelinos for the Italian railways with no connection between them. When
the P-Trains were eventually taken out of service all of the vehicles are
accounted for, either being scrapped or preserved, except maybe for one
2nd-Brake that was converted to a non-articulated car that seems to have
gone missing. Paul and I have both seen it at various times in the last few
years, usually on the ECML, and I believe others have seen it too. The P
Train 'technology' was passed around the European railway vehicle suppliers
after BR's privatisation, via ABB, Adtranz and goodness knows who else,
(Anyone else got this trail sorted out yet?) but none of them were Italian,
and in any case Fiat were doing very nicely with the Pendelinos anyway.

From this APT 'sell-off' came a few other Euro high speed trains, not the
least of which is the Swedish X-2000 train, which uses P-Train technology
extensively. From this route came the Virgin cross-country Super Voyagers,
which seemingly have P-Train type suspension, including tilt system, but I
can't remember where they are built, Belgium maybe? It's not Italy for
sure.

However, to muddy the waters, Virgin bought their high speed main line
trains from Italy, resulting in the Pendelinos now in service here. These
don't use P-Train technolgy, apart from maybe the high speed wheel
profiles, but then those are in use worldwide now, apart from Japan.

Maybe it's this confusion between the two Virgin trains that caused your
informant's comment.

Regards
Kit

Fantastic write-up Kit, you should write a book!

Cheers,
Ian

I've not seen this photo before unless I missed it on apt-p.com
somewhere.

http://www.photo-rail.co.uk/lowrespages/370006_040682lr.htm

I know that many in Britain thought the APT was deserving of reverence...

...but I am at something of a loss to comprehend the level of devotion shown
at the left of Aaron's picture at

http://www.photo-rail.co.uk/lowrespages/370006_040682lr.htm


Especially from the 'demographic cohort' that appears to be involved...


RME

Hi guys,

This is curious? You mention a stray vehicle still on the main line...
Can you give more details?

I remeber a single p-train vehicle being cut up at Vic Berrys in Leicester
under the secret of night during the late 80's (possibly even early 90's?).
It arrived by road from Derby and was placed inside three walls of scrap
coaches deliberatley so that nobody could get at it with a camera.

I did manage to get a couple of snaps at a distance but was quickly thrown
out of the yard and cautioned by one of the staff!

I did promise Rob that he could have a scan for his website but I can not
for the life of me find where I have put them. I'll have to keep digging - I
was sure though that this was the articulated vehicle converted to
Non-articulated?

Surely a P-train vehicle on the main line would stick out like a sore thumb?
or am I confusing the coach you mention with another vehicle?

I love the concept of APT vehicles still running though!

Kindest Regards to all,
Steve Foxon.

>From: Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...>
>Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>To: "INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com"
><Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: <APT Group> Italian APT?
>Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:14:20 -0400
>
>Bob,
>
> >.......and I recall being told by a very knowledgable man that an APT had
>been sold to Italy and had been used for >development of their system.<
>
>Hmm, I rather doubt his 'knowledge' here I'm afraid, it's almost the other
>way round.
>
>Fiat were developing the Pendelino system at around the same time as we
>were doing the APT-E at Derby. Indeed there's some doubt as to which was
>the first one on the tracks, the Fiat single car Pendelino pre-dating
>E-Train by a bit, but post-dating POP-Train. From the suspension point of
>view, and especially the tilt system, the two trains differ markedly, and
>the Pendelino did not use the 'Worn Wheel' profiles devopled by Dr. Alan
>Wickens prior to the APT project getting under way. (I suspect current day
>Pendelinos do though, it would be tough to go as fas a sthey do without
>this technology)
>
>The two systems went their own individual ways, BR eventually building the
>three APT-P sets and Fiat going into production with multiple-unit
>Pendelinos for the Italian railways with no connection between them. When
>the P-Trains were eventually taken out of service all of the vehicles are
>accounted for, either being scrapped or preserved, except maybe for one
>2nd-Brake that was converted to a non-articulated car that seems to have
>gone missing. Paul and I have both seen it at various times in the last few
>years, usually on the ECML, and I believe others have seen it too. The P
>Train 'technology' was passed around the European railway vehicle suppliers
>after BR's privatisation, via ABB, Adtranz and goodness knows who else,
>(Anyone else got this trail sorted out yet?) but none of them were Italian,
>and in any case Fiat were doing very nicely with the Pendelinos anyway.
>
>From this APT 'sell-off' came a few other Euro high speed trains, not the
>least of which is the Swedish X-2000 train, which uses P-Train technology
>extensively. From this route came the Virgin cross-country Super Voyagers,
>which seemingly have P-Train type suspension, including tilt system, but I
>can't remember where they are built, Belgium maybe? It's not Italy for
>sure.
>
>However, to muddy the waters, Virgin bought their high speed main line
>trains from Italy, resulting in the Pendelinos now in service here. These
>don't use P-Train technolgy, apart from maybe the high speed wheel
>profiles, but then those are in use worldwide now, apart from Japan.
>
>Maybe it's this confusion between the two Virgin trains that caused your
>informant's comment.
>
>Regards
>Kit
>

_________________________________________________________________
It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Steve,

>This is curious? You mention a stray vehicle still on the main line...
>Can you give more details?<

My recollection of it was that it was parked in a siding south of
Peterborough somewhere, but it was a lon g time ago. Paul has seen it twice
i think, but I'm sure he'll be able to post a correction.

>It arrived by road from Derby and was placed inside three walls of scrap
>coaches deliberatley so that nobody could get at it with a camera.
>I did manage to get a couple of snaps at a distance but was quickly thrown

>out of the yard and cautioned by one of the staff!<

Which begs the question 'Why?'

It's so stupid of various commercial enterprises to act in this way. It's
not covered by the Official Secrets Act that BR withdrew the APT from
service, for goodness sake! Did they think we'd forget about it?
'Cautioned'? what right had he to caution you? After all, you and everyone
else in the country had PAID for the darn thing in the first place. I get
quite upset about this 'Us and You' attitude on the part of commercially
vested interests.

>Surely a P-train vehicle on the main line would stick out like a sore

thumb?

>or am I confusing the coach you mention with another vehicle?<

Exactly! The colour scheme was very evident and was why I spotted it in the
first place.

At one time this vehicle, previously SC48204, was at one time on the R&D
fleet renumbered as RDB977527 and was slated as a 'Tilt Development
Vehicle' but I don't know if it evere did any work as such.

Regards
Kit

>Virgin Trains recently launched the first scheduled tilting train service

in the UK, the 0935 Cross Country Reading-Manchester >Piccadilly - twenty
years after the APT was withdrawn by BR. The first section of the route to
be cleared for tilt running is a >15-mile stretch between Wolvercroft
Junction north of Oxford and Aynho junction just south of Banbury.<

Obviously written by a PR person who is younger than 24................

The first scheduled tilting train service in the UK was APT-P in 1982 and I
was on it!

Last weekend I was standing at Didcot when a Super Voyager went past en
route to Oxford on the by-pass line, a suitable candidate for a tilting
curve if ever I saw one, but I was too many platforms away to see if it was
tilting or not. In the light of the above, presumably not.

What happened to tilting service on the Penedlinos then? I thought that was
meant to start up last November?

Regards
Kit

Curious and more curious?

I'll have another go at trying to find these pictures - lets see if we can
identify them.

The date period to give you an idea of when the vehicle was in the yard
would be some time after the collision on the WCML of the two class 86
locomotives - CITY OF MILTON KEYNES and THE TIMES. The locomotives went to
Crewe but the rolling stock went to Vic Berrys for breaking - I remember
somebody commenting how the damaged MkIII stock plus the APT vehicle were
probably the newest items of rolling stock on the network and they were all
in the breakers yard!

Certainly they were a change from 1st generation DMU's, MkI Sleepers and
Class 26's - which tended to be the norm!

Many Thanks Kit.
Steve Foxon.

>From: Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...>
>Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>To: "INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com"
><Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: <APT Group> Lost 2nd Brake
>Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 08:43:06 -0400
>
>Steve,
>
> >This is curious? You mention a stray vehicle still on the main line...
> >Can you give more details?<
>
>My recollection of it was that it was parked in a siding south of
>Peterborough somewhere, but it was a lon g time ago. Paul has seen it twice
>i think, but I'm sure he'll be able to post a correction.
>
> >It arrived by road from Derby and was placed inside three walls of scrap
> >coaches deliberatley so that nobody could get at it with a camera.
> >I did manage to get a couple of snaps at a distance but was quickly
>thrown
>
> >out of the yard and cautioned by one of the staff!<
>
>Which begs the question 'Why?'
>
>It's so stupid of various commercial enterprises to act in this way. It's
>not covered by the Official Secrets Act that BR withdrew the APT from
>service, for goodness sake! Did they think we'd forget about it?
>'Cautioned'? what right had he to caution you? After all, you and everyone
>else in the country had PAID for the darn thing in the first place. I get
>quite upset about this 'Us and You' attitude on the part of commercially
>vested interests.
>
> >Surely a P-train vehicle on the main line would stick out like a sore
>thumb?
> >or am I confusing the coach you mention with another vehicle?<
>
>Exactly! The colour scheme was very evident and was why I spotted it in the
>first place.
>
>At one time this vehicle, previously SC48204, was at one time on the R&D
>fleet renumbered as RDB977527 and was slated as a 'Tilt Development
>Vehicle' but I don't know if it evere did any work as such.
>
>Regards
>Kit
>

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband

Hi,

For the first time ever, I travelled to Euston last week from Rugby on a
Pendolino (set 37 or 38? I think... it seemed pretty darned new anyway!)

I could have sworn we were in full tilt mode on the fast stretch just south
of Rugby.

I couldn't find anybody to confirm but my half filled coffee cup said we
were definitely not on the level!! I don't remember my coffee ever doing
that before?.... well not since Crewe to Carlisle 12/09/86.

Not sure if it is official yet though.

More to the point... Not sure if like pendolino travel yet either. The
seats are not very comfertable are they? They are practically vertical on
the back and very over-familier if you are at a table with travellers you
are not aquainted with. It seemed great if you wished to plug your laptop
in and work but what happened to travelling by train to relax? ...and what
also happened to that BR policy of a seat by a window?

(If you are 6 foot or over (like me!) I don't recommed the table window
seats - power sockets are where your knees should go.)

Don't get me wrong though, the acceleration and braking are quite amazing.
You seem to accelerate quite rapidly to maximum line speed over what seems a
matter of seconds but when it comes to braking - it is very gentle and
appears to be over a very long gradual period many miles before the point
where the driver wishes to stop. Infact we had to accelerate again in the
platforms as the driver misjudged his braking at Milton Keynes!

The return journey was almost painful (same set as I travelled down on) - I
think we did the whole journey at about 20mph! (certainly not Richard
Bransons image of how pendolino travel should be). We even went via the
Northampton loop!

I was stunned at how much recovery time there really is in the timetable
though.

Anybody else have an opinion on pendolino travel? I don't mean to be having
a moan but I was a little disappointed. I was only a kid when APT was being
trialled, so I perhaps fitted in the seat a bit easier, but I was sure it
was a better ride? As a kid, APT was built up to be something special, and
it lived up to that (for me anyway), but Pendolino doesn't quite reach that
same excitement.

I am sure I am not moaning because I have gotten older, Tell me I am not the
only one slightly dis-illusioned?

Steve Foxon. (really not very old at all)

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

I had the unfortunate task of travelling from Glasgow to Euston on a
Pendolino back in March.

I found the train very cramped, the power socket dug into my leg, the window
was tiny...

At Carlisle a group of three other people joined me at the table I was on,
and I was squahed into the corner. that's not to say they were pushing, but
the seats are so narrow that you can't help being squashed. The carriage was
noisy, and the heating was on full blast, my legs were roasted. There were
also some very worrying bangs from the bogies on occasions, almost thought
the wheels were going to shatter...

All in all, not a very nice journey at all. I'll be travelling down GNER
next time.

Regards,

Tim.
http://tims-pics.fotopic.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Foxon [mailto:btfman1@...]
Sent: 10 May 2004 23:22
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> My Victor Meldrew Moment.


Hi,

For the first time ever, I travelled to Euston last week from Rugby on a
Pendolino (set 37 or 38? I think... it seemed pretty darned new anyway!)

I could have sworn we were in full tilt mode on the fast stretch just south
of Rugby.

I couldn't find anybody to confirm but my half filled coffee cup said we
were definitely not on the level!! I don't remember my coffee ever doing
that before?.... well not since Crewe to Carlisle 12/09/86.

Not sure if it is official yet though.

More to the point... Not sure if like pendolino travel yet either. The
seats are not very comfertable are they? They are practically vertical on
the back and very over-familier if you are at a table with travellers you
are not aquainted with. It seemed great if you wished to plug your laptop
in and work but what happened to travelling by train to relax? ...and what
also happened to that BR policy of a seat by a window?

(If you are 6 foot or over (like me!) I don't recommed the table window
seats - power sockets are where your knees should go.)

Don't get me wrong though, the acceleration and braking are quite amazing.
You seem to accelerate quite rapidly to maximum line speed over what seems a

matter of seconds but when it comes to braking - it is very gentle and
appears to be over a very long gradual period many miles before the point
where the driver wishes to stop. Infact we had to accelerate again in the
platforms as the driver misjudged his braking at Milton Keynes!

The return journey was almost painful (same set as I travelled down on) - I
think we did the whole journey at about 20mph! (certainly not Richard
Bransons image of how pendolino travel should be). We even went via the
Northampton loop!

I was stunned at how much recovery time there really is in the timetable
though.

Anybody else have an opinion on pendolino travel? I don't mean to be having
a moan but I was a little disappointed. I was only a kid when APT was being

trialled, so I perhaps fitted in the seat a bit easier, but I was sure it
was a better ride? As a kid, APT was built up to be something special, and
it lived up to that (for me anyway), but Pendolino doesn't quite reach that
same excitement.

I am sure I am not moaning because I have gotten older, Tell me I am not the

only one slightly dis-illusioned?

Steve Foxon. (really not very old at all)

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo




http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
Yahoo! Groups Links





The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence
is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s).
For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution,
or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information
is prohibited and may be unlawful.

Emails and other electronic communication with QinetiQ may be monitored.
Calls to QinetiQ may be recorded for quality control,
regulatory and monitoring purposes.

> Unlike the APT, the Pendolino uses a system called
> TASS "Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision
> system" which basically means it requires permission
> from track side balises (beacons) before it can
> tilt.
>

What happens if a balise says 'no you may not tilt
young fella me lad' unexpectedly but the train is
going as fast as it can? Does everyone end up on one
side of the train?

Laurie





____________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

Steve,

>I couldn't find anybody to confirm but my half filled coffee cup said we
>were definitely not on the level!! I don't remember my coffee ever doing
>that before?.... well not since Crewe to Carlisle 12/09/86.

If it was a half-way decent tilt system neither you nor your coffee would
even notice a curve unless you looked out of the window and saw the horizon
going up and down.

If your coffee wasn't level on a curve it means the vehicle was running
either under the zero cant deficiency speed or over it, depending which way
the coffee tilted. One way to see if a vehicle is tilting or not is to
compare it's angle relative to the next vehicle along. If you can look
right down the train you can see each vehicle leaning over before the
following one, but they do that even on normal track. It's a matter of
degree.

Andy,

>Unlike the APT, the Pendolino uses a system called TASS "Tilt

Authorisation and Speed Supervision system" which basically >means it
requires permission from track side balises (beacons) before it can tilt.<

Indeed, which makes me wonder why.............

If they HAVE to know they are coming to a curve before they get there why
noty fit each train with a GPS receiver with all the curves programmed into
it. You can buy one that will do that for about £500. Lots cheaper than a
zillion balises.

Of course, you could fit the vehicles with lateral accelerometers and
connect them up in a closed loop feedback loop to drive some servo-valves
to tilt the vehicle to reduce the cant deficency to zero, and it would work
at all speeds, right down to zero.

Nah, that's far too simple................

Regards
Kit

I believe that the "balise" system includes both speed and tilt information;
moreover, that it 'comprehends' the correct amount of 'negative cant
deficiency' required to tilt to a given angle for a given permissible speed.

Naturally, the train would not have been permitted to reach improper high
speed (instructed via train-control system) before reaching a 'balise' that
would not permit it to tilt... except in emergencies. That implies braking
in any situation where the tilt mechanism is known to have failed, or when
the balise 'knows' of an external situation that prevents tilt, etc.

In the United States, PTC requires better precision than the satellite GPS
can provide for moving vehicles. This will be done with the
differential-GPS system (which has ground-based transmitters in
precisely-known positions). Note that a failure of the GPS, either in the
hardware or as simply as an erroneous 'fix', would have potentially
catastrophic results if connected 'simply' to the tilting mechanism as I
believe Kit was implying.

It's cheaper and probably better to have the tilt-decision points located at
lineside, and to have them 'independently' decide by interrogating the
train's equipment and instruments what degree of tilt is safely commanded.
It will be interesting... to say the least... to see what happens when a
balise itself fails or malfunctions...

RME

My understanding of the latest tilting systems is that they do not
compensate for all of the tilt. The APT compensated 100% (I think), and this
was felt to be a cause of the nausea felt by passengers (Feeling no corner,
seeing tilt out of the window confusing the brain and 'sea sickness').

Therefore the latest systems compensate for most, but not all of the tilt
(you feel a corner, and you see a tilt, therefore no sickness).

Therefore, the coffee would still 'tilt' in the cup, but not greatly.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Tim.
http://tims-pics.fotopic.net



-----Original Message-----
From: Kit Spackman [mailto:101453.3657@...]
Sent: 11 May 2004 19:00
To: INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Tilting Pendelinos


Steve,

>I couldn't find anybody to confirm but my half filled coffee cup said we
>were definitely not on the level!! I don't remember my coffee ever doing
>that before?.... well not since Crewe to Carlisle 12/09/86.

If it was a half-way decent tilt system neither you nor your coffee would
even notice a curve unless you looked out of the window and saw the horizon
going up and down.

If your coffee wasn't level on a curve it means the vehicle was running
either under the zero cant deficiency speed or over it, depending which way
the coffee tilted. One way to see if a vehicle is tilting or not is to
compare it's angle relative to the next vehicle along. If you can look
right down the train you can see each vehicle leaning over before the
following one, but they do that even on normal track. It's a matter of
degree.

Andy,

>Unlike the APT, the Pendolino uses a system called TASS "Tilt

Authorisation and Speed Supervision system" which basically >means it
requires permission from track side balises (beacons) before it can tilt.<

Indeed, which makes me wonder why.............

If they HAVE to know they are coming to a curve before they get there why
noty fit each train with a GPS receiver with all the curves programmed into
it. You can buy one that will do that for about £500. Lots cheaper than a
zillion balises.

Of course, you could fit the vehicles with lateral accelerometers and
connect them up in a closed loop feedback loop to drive some servo-valves
to tilt the vehicle to reduce the cant deficency to zero, and it would work
at all speeds, right down to zero.

Nah, that's far too simple................

Regards
Kit



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
Yahoo! Groups Links




The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence
is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s).
For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution,
or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information
is prohibited and may be unlawful.

Emails and other electronic communication with QinetiQ may be monitored.
Calls to QinetiQ may be recorded for quality control,
regulatory and monitoring purposes.

A small additional note:

Some technical discussion of this system can be found in

www.rssb.co.uk/.../ERTMS%20train%20specifications%20-%20Engineering%20interf
ces%20initial%20report.pdf

(all one line, of course)

This might also be a source of leads for further inquiries.

RME

Tim,

>My understanding of the latest tilting systems is that they do not
>compensate for all of the tilt. The APT compensated 100% (I think), and

this

>was felt to be a cause of the nausea felt by passengers (Feeling no

corner,

>seeing tilt out of the window confusing the brain and 'sea sickness').<

That's exactly right, although P-Train did run with an 80% compensation
system for a while in it's latter days. E-Train always had a 100% system,
but it's geometry was such that it could have no other type.

The visual disparity between your balance canals saying 'I'm level' and
your eyes seeing the horizon going up and down is the physiological problem
that causes the 'Tilt Sickness' IN SOME PEOPLE! My capitals, because it's
not everyone who feels it, after all, what happens when you go round a
roundabout in a car? The G levels then are much higher than you experience
in a train.

Although I'm a bad case to choose (I never had a problem with it, but then
I was much more experienced in the phenomenon than any other person
world-wide in the early 70s <g>) I've suffered the problem while flying out
of Amsterdam in a Viscount in the 80s. I was reading a book as we took off
and didn't look out the large windows until the aircraft was about 1500 ft
up. Then I glanced outside and saw Holland at a 30 deg. bank angle when my
ears said I was level! Instant vertigo! And it carried on until well after
we'd landed at East Midlands.

The 'non-complete compensation' allows those who suffer from the problem to
have some real world input to their balance canals while still giving the
benefit of some compensation to everyone on the train. However I'm not
convinced that the dreaded 'balises' are the right solution to the problem.
A little too much technology for it's own sake I think.

My comment about GPS was meant to be a semi-sarcastic lead-in to the bit
later on about accelerometers and servo-valves BTW.

Regards
Kit

Thanks for that Kit.

I too think that the systems are getting too complicated. The APT-P system
could easily have been developed with a small amount of expense by the BRB,
and a working final solution provided.

I know the system did work, and very well too, but there were occasional
failures that could have been ironed out if the powers-at-be had not
pandered to the Press of the day.

A great train wasted...

Cheers,

Tim.
http://tims-pics.fotopic.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Kit Spackman [mailto:101453.3657@...]
Sent: 12 May 2004 16:53
To: INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> APT-P and Voyager tilt systems


The 'non-complete compensation' allows those who suffer from the problem to
have some real world input to their balance canals while still giving the
benefit of some compensation to everyone on the train. However I'm not
convinced that the dreaded 'balises' are the right solution to the problem.
A little too much technology for it's own sake I think.

My comment about GPS was meant to be a semi-sarcastic lead-in to the bit
later on about accelerometers and servo-valves BTW.


The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence
is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s).
For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution,
or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information
is prohibited and may be unlawful.

Emails and other electronic communication with QinetiQ may be monitored.
Calls to QinetiQ may be recorded for quality control,
regulatory and monitoring purposes.

Hi,

I appreciate that my coffee is not the most scientific method ? - call it a
figure of speech.

Perhaps we were travelling too fast for the cant to compensate? I have since
travelled Pendolino a few more times and have never noticed the same
sensation though - could tilt have been switched on as a test do you think?

Very odd?

Steve.

_________________________________________________________________
Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you.
http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

Steve,

>I have since travelled Pendolino a few more times and have never noticed

the same

>sensation though - could tilt have been switched on as a test do you

think?<

You don't have enough information to tell.

The question to ask is 'Was the train going faster or slower than the zero
can deficiency speed for the curve you were on at the time'. Unless it was
going at EXACTLY the same speed that curve was designed for the coffee will
show a tilt one way or the other.

With the non-fully compensdated tilt system that Pendelinos use the coffee
will ALWAYS be tilted on a curve as by definition the tilt angle won't be
enough to produce zero cant deficiancy. It's like a watch that's stopped,
it always exactly on time twice a day, whereas one that's a bit slow is
never right............... <g>

Regards
Kit

On 14/05/04 at 13:24 Kit Spackman wrote:

>
>With the non-fully compensdated tilt system that Pendelinos use the coffee
>will ALWAYS be tilted on a curve as by definition the tilt angle won't be
>enough to produce zero cant deficiancy.
>
>Regards
>Kit
>
>

Always? Not if the train is at balancing speed for the cant of that curve!

Then, if the train is travelling at (say) 20% above balancing speed and the tilt system compensates for 80% of that, there won't be a very noticeable tilt in the coffee, will there?

Regards

Gerry

Gerry,

>Always? Not if the train is at balancing speed for the cant of that

curve!<

Maybe, I'm not sure how this 80% business works on a Pendelino with the
balises etc. Does the balis tell it how much to tilt and does it know how
fast the train is running?

>Then, if the train is travelling at (say) 20% above balancing speed and

the tilt system compensates for 80% of that, there >won't be a very
noticeable tilt in the coffee, will there?<

That's right, if it works that way. The semi-compensated system tried on
P-Train, or at least the first one, gave proportional tilt. It worked out
what angle it should tilt to compensate fully and then gave a bit less, so
that system would never give level coffee. But then it 'suffered' from all
the issues that CM&EE didn't like about fully compensated tilt anyway, so
it stood no chance of being adopted.

Regards
Kit

92024 at Doncaster Works - any idea what it's doing this side of the
Pennines? http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p4496616.html

67016 with newly refurbished GNER MkIV Mallard rake
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p4496640.html

Some more shots of APT-E Under restoration at the NRM - the repaint has
started and she's starting to look like her old self!
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p4496558.html
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p4496560.html
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p4496559.html
http://www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net/p4496557.html


Regards,
Adam Warr
Electra Railway Graphics
Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net

She now looks wonderful, a credit to the painters.

Thanks to adam for the last set of pictures.

http://www.apt-e.org

Regards

Paul

PS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK KIT!!!!!!!!

>WHAT DO YOU THINK KIT!!!!!!!!<

Best I've seen her sinc e 1976! Outstanding job.

Who did it, and how did they get the right colours and who funded it etc.
etc.?

Oh, why did it take so long? <g>

Regards
Kit

Hi Kit,
Some contractor for the NRM is doing the job, and although the
colour codes the NRM gave them are wrong, they are very close.

The NRM has paid for the job, 38K WOW, well expensive.............

Ive still not had any feedback from Jim Rees about the E train at
railfest or the move................NO GOOD!

PC2, isnt ready for painting, nor was PC1 but, hay! its a new paint
job.

Give me a bell sometime

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, Kit Spackman
<101453.3657@c...> wrote:

>
> >WHAT DO YOU THINK KIT!!!!!!!!<
>
> Best I've seen her sinc e 1976! Outstanding job.
>
> Who did it, and how did they get the right colours and who funded

it etc.

> etc.?
>
> Oh, why did it take so long? <g>
>
> Regards
> Kit

She's looking very good - the vents are on the power cars and nearly all
painted according to this picture from Railfest yesterday.


Regards,
Adam Warr
Electra Railway Graphics
Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net

Sorry about that - hit CTRL+S instead of CTRL+V...

The URL is here...
http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4779137&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Can't see if they have painted the bogies on the other side yet but will
be at York tomorrow to have a good look.

It's great to see the old girl looking loved again!

What do you think, Paul / Kit, etc?

Regards,
Adam Warr
Electra Railway Graphics
Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net

She looks great, just a shame that they didnt get time to paint the
nose, but she does look fantastic.

I must get there and have a look.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Warr"
<adam.warr@n...> wrote:

> Sorry about that - hit CTRL+S instead of CTRL+V...
>
> The URL is here...
> http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4779137&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1
>
> Can't see if they have painted the bogies on the other side yet

but will

> be at York tomorrow to have a good look.
>
> It's great to see the old girl looking loved again!
>
> What do you think, Paul / Kit, etc?
>
> Regards,
> Adam Warr
> Electra Railway Graphics
> Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
> Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net

Paul, etc.

Just got back - she looks absolutley superb.

The Power Cars are both painted apart from the yellow ends and the
bogies on the side that had been prepared and primed have also been
sprayed rail blue.

Needless to say, I took lots of pictures and will be posting them to the
web later.

Regards,
Adam Warr
Electra Railway Graphics
Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Leadley [mailto:PAUL@...]
Sent: 30 May 2004 19:19
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <APT Group> Re: APT-E at Railfest


She looks great, just a shame that they didnt get time to paint the
nose, but she does look fantastic.

I must get there and have a look.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Warr"
<adam.warr@n...> wrote:

> Sorry about that - hit CTRL+S instead of CTRL+V...
>
> The URL is here...
> http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4779137&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1
>
> Can't see if they have painted the bogies on the other side yet

but will

> be at York tomorrow to have a good look.
>
> It's great to see the old girl looking loved again!
>
> What do you think, Paul / Kit, etc?
>
> Regards,
> Adam Warr
> Electra Railway Graphics
> Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
> Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
Yahoo! Groups Links