Messages in Advanced-Passenger-Train group. Page 22 of 68.

Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1091 From: Nick Wheat Date: 04/02/2004
Subject: And also
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1092 From: Rob Latham Date: 04/02/2004
Subject: APT on TV
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1093 From: richard.n.richards Date: 04/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT on TV
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1094 From: mosherscargotrain Date: 04/02/2004
Subject: could i buy the apt
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1095 From: John Wood Date: 04/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT on TV
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1096 From: Laurie Still Date: 05/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT on TV
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1097 From: Kit Spackman Date: 06/02/2004
Subject: Digest Number 512
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1098 From: Adam Warr Date: 06/02/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 512
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1099 From: Kit Spackman Date: 08/02/2004
Subject: Digest Number 513
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1100 From: Andrew Jones Date: 08/02/2004
Subject: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1101 From: Gerry Bates Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1102 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1103 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1104 From: Rob Latham Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: APT 'Bible' for sale on eBay
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1105 From: bathmatus Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: could i buy the apt
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1106 From: Rob Latham Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: could i buy the apt
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1107 From: Andrew Jones Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1108 From: Andy Appleton Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT 'Bible' for sale on eBay
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1109 From: James Moody Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1110 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: could i buy the apt
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1111 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1112 From: James Moody Date: 10/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1113 From: Kit Spackman Date: 10/02/2004
Subject: APT-E Doors and Tilt
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1114 From: Rob Latham Date: 13/02/2004
Subject: Re: And finally...
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1115 From: Paul Leadley Date: 15/02/2004
Subject: Re: And finally...
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1116 From: Richard Tearle Date: 16/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1117 From: Andy Date: 16/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1118 From: Andy Appleton Date: 16/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1119 From: Richard Tearle Date: 16/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1120 From: mosherscargotrain Date: 18/02/2004
Subject: i saw a book on the apt-p
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1121 From: Laurie Still Date: 24/02/2004
Subject: Some new pictures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1122 From: Andy Appleton Date: 24/02/2004
Subject: Re: Some new pictures
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1123 From: Kit Spackman Date: 25/02/2004
Subject: Porduction E-Train?
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1124 From: Rob Latham Date: 28/02/2004
Subject: APT / Pendolino in The Manufacturer
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1125 From: Gerry Bates Date: 28/02/2004
Subject: Re: APT / Pendolino in The Manufacturer
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1126 From: dungareeboy2002 Date: 02/03/2004
Subject: Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1127 From: bathmatus Date: 08/03/2004
Subject: http://railwayphotographs.picturebook.org.uk/c118635_1.html
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1128 From: Paul Leadley Date: 10/03/2004
Subject: Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1129 From: Pape Timothy Date: 10/03/2004
Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E tr ain!!!!!! Im not kidding!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1130 From: Nick Wheat Date: 10/03/2004
Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E tr ain!!!!!! Im not kidding!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1131 From: Rob Latham Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: APT IN CHANNEL TUNNEL
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1132 From: katherine bone Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E train Just who is responsible
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1133 From: richard.n.richards Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1134 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: Re: Re: fear for the E train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1135 From: Andrew Jones Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: Re: APT IN CHANNEL TUNNEL
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1136 From: Laurie Still Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: Re: Re: fear for the E train
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1137 From: Kit Spackman Date: 11/03/2004
Subject: Moving E-Train,
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1138 From: Rob Latham Date: 12/03/2004
Subject: Channel Tunnel APT
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1139 From: Rob Latham Date: 12/03/2004
Subject: RAILNEWS Supplement
Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1140 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 12/03/2004
Subject: Re: APT IN CHANNEL TUNNEL



Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1091 From: Nick Wheat Date: 04/02/2004
Subject: And also
Attachments :
    A hydro-kinetic brake - conveniently sectioned.

    The restoration Group may not agree with the last statement, though!

    Nick

    --
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1092 From: Rob Latham Date: 04/02/2004
    Subject: APT on TV
    Did anyone see / record Ultimate Trains on Channel Five on Monday
    night ? I've only just found out that it was on. They filmed some of
    the APT-P here in Crewe last May.

    Rob
    www.apt-p.com
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1093 From: richard.n.richards Date: 04/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT on TV
    i missed the programme till it was too late :(
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Rob Latham
    Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 2:38 PM
    Subject: <APT Group> APT on TV

    i missed it Did anyone see / record Ultimate Trains on Channel Five on Monday
    night ? I've only just found out that it was on. They filmed some of
    the APT-P here in Crewe last May.

    Rob
    www.apt-p.com




    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links




    Yahoo! Groups Links


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    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1094 From: mosherscargotrain Date: 04/02/2004
    Subject: could i buy the apt
    is it possible that if i had enough money i would be able to buy the
    apt
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1095 From: John Wood Date: 04/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT on TV
    Hello,

    I watched it & it was very good!!!!!. The APT got a good few minutes
    or so exposure. Unfortunately, as I didn't know the APT was on I
    didn't have a tape ready and by the time I found one the APT footage
    had gone of - bugger!

    They were interviewing a chap (sorry, don't know who he is?) who was
    talking about Virgin spending billions of pounds buying tilting
    technology (Pendolino) which was invented here in the UK. He also
    said that the APT was a "fantastic piece of kit"!

    John

    >Rob Latham wrote:
    Did anyone see / record Ultimate Trains on Channel Five on Monday
    night ?
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1096 From: Laurie Still Date: 05/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT on TV
    It was good to see the APT on the telly, I thought
    they were quite positive about it. The bloke who said
    it was fantastic is actually the Lead Singer of Iron
    Maiden, not your stereotypical trainspotter!

    It is also interesting to note that Bombadier are
    developing a jet engined powered train (with electric
    transmision!) to expand the highspeed american
    network. Is a jet engine another name for a gas
    turbine? or are they completely different.

    Laurie





    ___________________________________________________________
    BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1097 From: Kit Spackman Date: 06/02/2004
    Subject: Digest Number 512
    Laurie,

    >It is also interesting to note that Bombadier are developing a jet engined
    powered train >(with electric transmision!) to expand the highspeed
    american network. Is a jet engine >another name for a gas turbine? or are
    they completely different.<

    No, that's exactly how APT-E was powered! I'm amazed anyone is still doing
    that, the arguments against gas turbine power always centred on the high
    cost of fuel, and that's surely not gone down in the last 30 years.

    Before we used truck type turbines on APT-E there were some HUGE
    gas-turbine/electrics running on the Union Pacific in the USA. They used a
    big GE turbine coupled to conventional railway type generators producing
    about 10000 hp. They ran on Bunker C fuel, which was very cheap at the
    time, but was the devil to pump as it's almost solid at the chilly temps
    they had over the Rockies. The three different Turbine classes worked vrey
    well, but were a bit infelxible compared to using multiples of SD-40s etc,
    and so were retired around the time BR started thinking about APT.

    There 'aint nuffink new under the sun..........

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1098 From: Adam Warr Date: 06/02/2004
    Subject: Re: Digest Number 512
    And just to make the whole story go full circle, the Bombardier
    Jet-Train is being touted in some quarters as a replacement for the
    HST...

    I wonder if they could get it to tilt?

    Regards,
    Adam Warr
    Electra Railway Graphics
    Website: www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk
    Railway Photos: www.adamsphotos.fotopic.net


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Kit Spackman [mailto:101453.3657@...]
    Sent: 06 February 2004 16:30
    To: INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: <APT Group> Digest Number 512


    Laurie,

    >It is also interesting to note that Bombadier are developing a jet
    >engined
    powered train >(with electric transmision!) to expand the highspeed
    american network. Is a jet engine >another name for a gas turbine? or
    are they completely different.<

    No, that's exactly how APT-E was powered! I'm amazed anyone is still
    doing that, the arguments against gas turbine power always centred on
    the high cost of fuel, and that's surely not gone down in the last 30
    years.

    Before we used truck type turbines on APT-E there were some HUGE
    gas-turbine/electrics running on the Union Pacific in the USA. They used
    a big GE turbine coupled to conventional railway type generators
    producing about 10000 hp. They ran on Bunker C fuel, which was very
    cheap at the time, but was the devil to pump as it's almost solid at the
    chilly temps they had over the Rockies. The three different Turbine
    classes worked vrey well, but were a bit infelxible compared to using
    multiples of SD-40s etc, and so were retired around the time BR started
    thinking about APT.

    There 'aint nuffink new under the sun..........

    Regards
    Kit


    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
    Yahoo! Groups Links
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1099 From: Kit Spackman Date: 08/02/2004
    Subject: Digest Number 513
    Adam,

    >And just to make the whole story go full circle, the Bombardier Jet-Train
    is being touted >in some quarters as a replacement for the HST...

    >I wonder if they could get it to tilt?<

    Only if they file the corners off................ <g>

    It's interesting to note that Trevor Easton, who was in the APT Tilt
    Development Dept with me, went to Canada to work on the Bombardier LRC
    train, which DID tilt, thanks to him being there. I think he's still there
    too,.............

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1100 From: Andrew Jones Date: 08/02/2004
    Subject: APT-E technical data
    Hi, I'm new to this group. After looking through Paul's website, I'm
    fascinated about the APT-E, and I think the support group is doing a
    great job. Imagine if the APT project had never been cancelled.

    Anyway, I'm thinking about making the APT-E for Trainz Railway
    Simulator, but I need some kind of dimensions to make a start. Would
    anybody happen to have any technical drawings with the basics so I
    can give it a try?

    Thanks for any help!
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1101 From: Gerry Bates Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
    Andrew

    We have APT-E for MS Train Simulator, thanks to Paul. What about APT-P for Trainz Railway Simulator?

    Just a thought!

    Regards

    Gerry Bates

    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

    On 08/02/04 at 20:13 Andrew Jones wrote:

    >Hi, I'm new to this group. After looking through Paul's website, I'm
    >fascinated about the APT-E, and I think the support group is doing a
    >great job. Imagine if the APT project had never been cancelled.
    >
    >Anyway, I'm thinking about making the APT-E for Trainz Railway
    >Simulator, but I need some kind of dimensions to make a start. Would
    >anybody happen to have any technical drawings with the basics so I
    >can give it a try?
    >
    >Thanks for any help!
    >
    >
    >
    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1102 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
    Hi Andrew,
    I made the model of E train for MSTS. I can email you the drawing I
    used for my model, Id love to see both APTs running in Trainz as its
    so much better than MSTS now.

    Anyway, Ive got some drawings that Kit sent me and I also have
    the "ORIGIONAL DRAWINGS" for E train, not sure how I could scale them
    down for you as they are A0.

    Drop me a line on paul@... if I can help you.

    Regards

    Paul
    APT-E Conservation & Support Group,NRM, York

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Jones"
    <andrewjjones@l...> wrote:
    > Hi, I'm new to this group. After looking through Paul's website, I'm
    > fascinated about the APT-E, and I think the support group is doing a
    > great job. Imagine if the APT project had never been cancelled.
    >
    > Anyway, I'm thinking about making the APT-E for Trainz Railway
    > Simulator, but I need some kind of dimensions to make a start. Would
    > anybody happen to have any technical drawings with the basics so I
    > can give it a try?
    >
    > Thanks for any help!
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1103 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
    Hi All,
    As you all know by now, the E train is going to be moved to Shildon
    sometime later this year. After many frustrated talks with NRM
    people, they seem to think that splitting and moving E train is a
    simple job. I have explained about the problems, but they are just
    not taking any notice, they are thinking about just fitting a sling
    about the bodywork and lifting away, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

    The new guy who has replaced Richard, hasnt even replied to my emails
    and has not even been down to see the support group and introduce
    himself, they say her doesnt work Saturdays.

    Kit, I think we need to get something sorted quick, or we may not
    have an E train to save. I cannot stress enough that the NRM think
    they know everything about E train, THEY DONT!, they nothing about
    it, but they think they can just do what the hell they like and it
    will be ok, because, THEY KNOW BEST.

    Its just a case as they will not listen. I really do fear that the
    support groups work over the past few years, is going to come to
    nothing due to the attitude the NRM is taking over the E train move.

    Ive also found out that they are going display the E train at
    railfest, but they havent even had the gratitude to consult with the
    support group. PC2 is still in a none state for moving, they also
    want people to look inside, which is fine, but we store our equipment
    and parts in TC1, this is turing into a single minded show and I
    think I need everyones help in trying to get the NRM to listen.

    Kit, you could maybe give me a bell on this matter.

    E train needs your help!

    Regards

    Paul
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1104 From: Rob Latham Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: APT 'Bible' for sale on eBay
    A Promise Unfulfilled again on eBay -


    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2224050110


    Happy Bidding !
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1105 From: bathmatus Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: could i buy the apt
    Send a cheque made out to

    Paul Leadley C/O The NRM for E Train

    or

    Rob Latham C/O Railway Age for P Train


    > is it possible that if i had enough money i would be able to buy
    the apt



    Love
    Bathmatus
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1106 From: Rob Latham Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: could i buy the apt
    Hi Bathmatus & MoshersCargoTrain

    Sorry to disappoint you but APT-P is NOT for sale!


    Best Wishes


    Rob

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "bathmatus"
    <bathmatus@y...> wrote:
    > Send a cheque made out to
    >
    > Paul Leadley C/O The NRM for E Train
    >
    > or
    >
    > Rob Latham C/O Railway Age for P Train
    >
    >
    > > is it possible that if i had enough money i would be able to buy
    > the apt
    >
    >
    >
    > Love
    > Bathmatus
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1107 From: Andrew Jones Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
    Yes, hopefully I'll be able to make one... if I can get to grips with
    Gmax :)

    Gerry Bates wrote:

    > Andrew
    >
    > We have APT-E for MS Train Simulator, thanks to Paul. What about APT-P for Trainz Railway Simulator?
    >
    > Just a thought!
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Gerry Bates
    >
    > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
    >
    > On 08/02/04 at 20:13 Andrew Jones wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Hi, I'm new to this group. After looking through Paul's website, I'm
    >>fascinated about the APT-E, and I think the support group is doing a
    >>great job. Imagine if the APT project had never been cancelled.
    >>
    >>Anyway, I'm thinking about making the APT-E for Trainz Railway
    >>Simulator, but I need some kind of dimensions to make a start. Would
    >>anybody happen to have any technical drawings with the basics so I
    >>can give it a try?
    >>
    >>Thanks for any help!

    --
    Andrew Jones
    andrewjjones at lineone dot net

    ** Please help save WRC Radio:
    http://worldrallyradio.tk/
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1108 From: Andy Appleton Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT 'Bible' for sale on eBay
    Basic P&P £4!!!!! What's the packaging made out of? Gold?

    Daylight Robbery!
    Andy

    ----- Original Message -----

    A Promise Unfulfilled again on eBay -

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2224050110
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1109 From: James Moody Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
    Andrew Jones wrote:

    > Anyway, I'm thinking about making the APT-E for Trainz Railway
    > Simulator, but I need some kind of dimensions to make a start. Would
    > anybody happen to have any technical drawings with the basics so I
    > can give it a try?

    Ooh... that's interesting, because I recently started doing the same
    thing, only with the APT-P...

    I'd be interested to see how you go about reproducing the tilt - bearing
    in mind you can probably ignore animated doorways, whereas I would need
    to get both tilting and the animated doorway components working...

    Oh, here's a tip for the articulated bogeys: make them as separate cars.
    No matter what I do with the articulation points, Trainz isn't expecting
    a bogey to have more than one articulation point. Faking it up as a
    separate car works really well though ;)

    James Moody
    --
    (¯\ | aka: Major Denis Bloodnok
    \ \ /¯) | ICQ: 7000473
    \ \___/ / |
    |/ _)| ) | No more can they keep us in
    ( (|_| ) | Listen, damn it, we will win
    \ / | They see it right, they see it well
    |====| | But they think this saves us from our hell
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1110 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: could i buy the apt
    If E train was for sale, I would buy it, and take it somewhere safe.
    Sorry people.

    Paul

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Latham"
    <rob@a...> wrote:
    > Hi Bathmatus & MoshersCargoTrain
    >
    > Sorry to disappoint you but APT-P is NOT for sale!
    >
    >
    > Best Wishes
    >
    >
    > Rob
    >
    > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "bathmatus"
    > <bathmatus@y...> wrote:
    > > Send a cheque made out to
    > >
    > > Paul Leadley C/O The NRM for E Train
    > >
    > > or
    > >
    > > Rob Latham C/O Railway Age for P Train
    > >
    > >
    > > > is it possible that if i had enough money i would be able to
    buy
    > > the apt
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Love
    > > Bathmatus
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1111 From: Paul Leadley Date: 09/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
    hi,
    Thats how I did the E train model in MSTS, I think it works really
    well, although my model didnt tilt.

    See UKTRAINSIM forum for and interesting idea for tilting, there is a
    test model for you to run also, guess what,.......it works.

    Regards

    Paul

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, James Moody
    <Bloodnok@a...> wrote:
    > Andrew Jones wrote:
    >
    > > Anyway, I'm thinking about making the APT-E for Trainz Railway
    > > Simulator, but I need some kind of dimensions to make a start.
    Would
    > > anybody happen to have any technical drawings with the basics so I
    > > can give it a try?
    >
    > Ooh... that's interesting, because I recently started doing the
    same
    > thing, only with the APT-P...
    >
    > I'd be interested to see how you go about reproducing the tilt -
    bearing
    > in mind you can probably ignore animated doorways, whereas I would
    need
    > to get both tilting and the animated doorway components working...
    >
    > Oh, here's a tip for the articulated bogeys: make them as separate
    cars.
    > No matter what I do with the articulation points, Trainz isn't
    expecting
    > a bogey to have more than one articulation point. Faking it up as a
    > separate car works really well though ;)
    >
    > James Moody
    > --
    > (¯\ | aka: Major Denis Bloodnok
    > \ \ /¯) | ICQ: 7000473
    > \ \___/ / |
    > |/ _)| ) | No more can they keep us in
    > ( (|_| ) | Listen, damn it, we will win
    > \ / | They see it right, they see it well
    > |====| | But they think this saves us from our hell
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1112 From: James Moody Date: 10/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-E technical data
    Paul Leadley wrote:

    > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, James Moody
    > <Bloodnok@a...> wrote:

    >>Oh, here's a tip for the articulated bogeys: make them as separate
    >>cars. No matter what I do with the articulation points, Trainz isn't
    >>expecting a bogey to have more than one articulation point. Faking it
    >>up as a separate car works really well though ;)

    > Thats how I did the E train model in MSTS, I think it works really
    > well, although my model didnt tilt.
    >
    > See UKTRAINSIM forum for and interesting idea for tilting, there is a
    > test model for you to run also, guess what,.......it works.

    If that's the one implemented as a skywards pointing bogey, that would
    be fine for a UTC spec model, and would probably be fine for the
    E-train. But the P-train, being a service passenger train, deserves the
    ability to pick up the odd few passengers - and the animated doors are
    going to need to attach to a bodyshell rather than a skywards pointing
    bogey.

    There are some rumors that tilting compatible with opening doors could
    be achieved with lots of script controlled animations of the bodyshell -
    but I haven't figured it out yet.

    In the mean time, I'll keep working on the NDM, which doesn't have the
    'passenger doors' problem :p

    James Moody
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1113 From: Kit Spackman Date: 10/02/2004
    Subject: APT-E Doors and Tilt
    James,

    > - bearing in mind you can probably ignore animated doorways,<

    Ignore is right! The rigmarole we had (and still do...) to go through to
    open the doors on the E-Train joint module is DEFINITELY not animated! <g>

    Sometimes a Big Hammer was called for to get the darn things to part. There
    was a 'production version' of the joint module door proposed at one time,
    but luckily sanity prevailed.

    --------------------------------------
    Paul,

    >guess what,.......it works.<

    Ah yes, but does it have an auto-changeover for the the servo valves
    though? <g>

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1114 From: Rob Latham Date: 13/02/2004
    Subject: Re: And finally...
    Hi Nick / Paul

    who is the artist of this superb drawing of the support group ??


    >
    > Nick (apologies for the shadowy figure!)
    >
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1115 From: Paul Leadley Date: 15/02/2004
    Subject: Re: And finally...
    Hi all,
    come someone send me the picture, I missed it.

    Cheers

    Paul

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Latham"
    <rob@a...> wrote:
    > Hi Nick / Paul
    >
    > who is the artist of this superb drawing of the support group ??
    >
    >
    > >
    > > Nick (apologies for the shadowy figure!)
    > >
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1116 From: Richard Tearle Date: 16/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton"
    <AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:
    > Hi Everyone,
    >
    > Attached is a weekday timetable from Crewe 1984/5. It contains
    details of two APT-P test runs. I found this in the free downloads
    section at PC-Rail http://www.pcrail.co.uk/download.htm .
    >
    > Take Care,
    > Andy Appleton

    Any chance of posting this again? As Yahoo! doesn't keep
    attachments, the link is broken, and the file isn't in the "Files"
    section!!

    thanks in advance

    Richard Tearle.
    (Newbie :-)
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1117 From: Andy Date: 16/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
    Welcome to the group Richard. Unfortunately, as you have already
    noticed, the original message/attachment was posted in August 2000 so
    the file wasn't archived. I don't have a copy of the timetable in
    question so I'll do a search of the WWW to see if I can find it again.

    Fingers Crossed...
    Andy

    P.S. Rob, I don't suppose you have a copy?

    "Richard Tearle" wrote:

    Any chance of posting this again? As Yahoo! doesn't keep attachments,
    the link is broken, and the file isn't in the "Files" section!!
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1118 From: Andy Appleton Date: 16/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
    Found it! Here's the timetable information:
     
    Headcode: 1M25
    Arr: 11:09
    Dep: 11:16
    Max Speed: 125
    Notes: 08:02 Glasgow C - Euston (APT test run)
    Motive Power: HST Class 370 APT-P
     
    Headcode: 1S86
    Arr: 18:14
    Dep: 18:16
    Max Speed: 125
    Notes: 16:30 Euston - Glasgow C (APT test run)
    Motive Power: HST Class 370 APT-P
     
    Take Care,
    Andy
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1119 From: Richard Tearle Date: 16/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT-P Timetable 1984/5
    Thanks for the info!

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Appleton"
    <AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:
    > Found it! Here's the timetable information:

    [snip]
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1120 From: mosherscargotrain Date: 18/02/2004
    Subject: i saw a book on the apt-p
    i was in a shop in glasgow where i stay called T.J Hughs and i found
    at the books a book of trains now ille be able to get the name in a
    week but it had quite 4-6 pages(not exactly) about the apt-p + apt-e
    and interesting pictures near the back of the book i am going to
    purchase it in a few weeks and then tell you what it is called etc.
    because it is currently not in the apt-p website. if you have a T.J
    Hughs nearby or live in glasgow pleease investigate it.
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1121 From: Laurie Still Date: 24/02/2004
    Subject: Some new pictures
    Hi Everyone,
    I have uploaded some pictures to the group album.
    I hope this is OK as they are presumably copyrighted.

    Three are of P-train from the "Picolo Spotters Guide"
    published by Piper in 1982. This caused me much
    confusion when I got it for a birthday present as I
    didn't know about P-train at the time!

    The other picture of what I believe to be an
    artists impression of a production version of E-train.
    This is taken from a Ladybird "Easy Reading" book
    called "People at Work: On the railways."
    The tell tale details are the branding of "APT
    Inter-city" and If you look closely at the leading
    coach there are extra small windows, presumably for
    toilets.

    I'd be interested to hear from involved parties (Kit)
    whether any work was done by the Experimental team to
    take E train towards a production vehicle.

    I remembered this book from my childhood and came
    across it quite by accident in a charity shop.

    There is another Ladybird book I am after called, I
    think "The story of the railways" which possibly had
    "The Rocket" on the cover. In it is another artists
    impression of a production APT which is quite unlike
    anything I have seen before or since. Whether it was a
    flight of fancy by the artist or made reference to BR
    drawings I don't know.

    take care

    Laurie





    ___________________________________________________________
    Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
    your friends today! Download Messenger Now
    http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1122 From: Andy Appleton Date: 24/02/2004
    Subject: Re: Some new pictures
    Great pics Laurie!
     
    I remember having a "Picolo Spotters Guide" back in the 80's and like you I didn't know much about the APT-P at the time.
     
    Thanks for uploading the pics from the book(s) as they brought back some great childhood memories.
     
    Take Care,
    Andy
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1123 From: Kit Spackman Date: 25/02/2004
    Subject: Porduction E-Train?
    Laurie,

    >I'd be interested to hear from involved parties (Kit) whether any work was
    done by the >Experimental team to take E train towards a production
    vehicle.<

    It was more the other way round................

    The original production APT concept was very much like a multi-car E-Train
    in looks and engineering, but that was the scheme that used the R-R Dart as
    motive power, one in each power car. I think that's the concept with the
    small pax compartment in the inner end of each power car too, later
    resurrected for HSTs as the guard's compartment.

    E-Train was built as a 'proof of concept' for that configuration
    originally, but the demise of the R-R Dart as motive power rather doomed
    the idea, as the replacement Leyland turbines filled up the power cars
    entirely and were nowhere near as powerful as the Darts would have been.
    The fuel crisis in the 70s then wrecked the whole idea of a gas turbine
    APT, thus making E-Train a 'dead end' from that point of view.

    E-Train's main purpose, after we'd got as far as Rebuild 2, was to prove
    the wheel-rail dynamics worked, that the whole idea of a lightweight
    articulated train would actually produce the acceleration/top speed
    performance that had been predicted, the aerodynamics worked as predicted,
    that the H-K brake could do what they said it would and that tilt really
    tilted (which we managed to do on good days <g>).

    As a possible production vehicle E-Train was pretty much a non-starter
    after about 1972-3, but it served to prove all the main concepts.

    I could go on at GREAT length about the differences between E and P train
    tilt systems as regards 'productionability', and I suspect the same would
    be true of the other systems, but it could get boring.......... <g>

    Regards
    Kit
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1124 From: Rob Latham Date: 28/02/2004
    Subject: APT / Pendolino in The Manufacturer
    This article appears in the March edition of 'The Manufacturer'


    This September Virgin Trains accepts the last of 53 nine-coach
    Pendolino tilting trains to run between London and Glasgow. The story
    goes that Britain invented the tilting train and should have been
    exporting it. So what went wrong? John Dwyer digs into what really
    happened

    Potent myths surround the UK's on-off love affair with tilting
    trains: Britain developed tilters first but, when they turned out to
    be expensive and unreliable, sold the technology to the Italians, who
    are now selling it back to us. None of this is true. The real story
    is a more interesting brew of boardroom in-fighting, clashing
    cultures and politics.
    Virgin's vision for the £1 billion Pendolino programme it
    launched in
    2001 was to double rail travel on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) to
    30 million passengers a year within five years. The programme foresaw
    trains running at full tilt – 140mph – along the WCML by May
    2005.
    But when escalating cost and delays to the WCML upgrade contributed
    to Railtrack's going into administration in October 2001, the
    upgrade, says a Virgin source, `went into the melting pot'.
    Virgin began a Pendolino service in July 2002, but Pendolino
    passengers did not arrive at Glasgow Central until January this year.
    No tilting was involved. Only 50 of the 401 miles of track and
    signalling from London and Glasgow are equipped for it.
    By September the track and signals from London to Crewe will allow
    trains to tilt and reach 125mph. But until December 2005 trains from
    Crewe to Glasgow will still be restricted to 110mph. To reach their
    140mph top speed, they must have in-cab signalling which, says a
    Virgin insider, `does not yet exist'.
    A similar tale attends Virgin's lower profile Class 221
    SuperVoyager
    tilting diesel trains, that were introduced on the CrossCountry
    routes from October 2002.
    Tilting trains are no gimmick. The railway rule is that every 1mph
    increase in average speed brings a one per cent increase in revenue.
    Corners make passengers uncomfortable at high speed. The French
    (TGV), German (ICE) and Japanese (Bullet Train) solution was to build
    new routes with long straight sections linked by steeply banked
    corners. But for one-tenth to one-twentieth the cost, you can put
    tilters on existing routes.
    The WCML offers no such choice. It has too many curves and its
    northern section runs through valleys with no route for straighter
    tracks. BR's answer was the tilting advanced passenger train
    known as
    the APT.
    In 1962 BR chief of research Sydney Jones recruited now-Professor
    Alan Wickens from the aircraft industry as director of advanced
    projects. When, in 1968, the APT project won 50:50 government
    funding, Wickens recruited a team, many from aviation, to carry it
    out.
    Tilting trains were not new. Though United Aircraft/Sikorsky's
    passive-tilting Turbotrain went into service in 1968, US experiments
    go back to the 1930s, and France's TGV decision followed the
    failure
    of a tilt experiment in 1956.
    But the project created friction between Wickens's group and
    BR's
    mechanical engineering department, responsible for acquiring new
    trains. Not only were Wickens and some of his colleagues not
    railwaymen, but they used computers and other non-railway working
    methods: "We adopted a systems engineering approach, familiar in
    the
    aircraft industry," says Wickens, "where the major design
    issues were
    identified and technical decisions made on the basis of
    calculation... [The] engineering culture on railways had been to
    design, build, deliver and sort out the problems in service."
    He adds that, "There were many people on the railways who were
    anti-
    research, because it upset people, largely. New ideas you see.
    It's a
    very conservative industry."
    The experimental train, APT-E, had its first run on 25 July 1971.
    Wickens says it proved BR could build a high speed tilting train. And
    though the APT-E programme was overspent, its £2.5 million
    was `miniscule' for a government which spent £2 billion on
    Concorde
    between 1967-1976.
    The cost of the prototype, APT-P, programme "cannot be more than
    £40
    million, including depots and other operational investments, and it
    probably underspent its budget," says Wickens.
    When the project went ahead in 1973, the specification for a large
    train with two power cars in the middle – you could not walk from
    one
    end to the other – was based on the needs of the WCML.
    For Wickens, this was the first of BR's two grave mistakes. A
    slight
    cut in top speed would have simplified the design, turning APT from
    one train for one route into a range of trains which could speed up
    routes all over the country:
    "They could have had a train that looked very like the
    Pendolino."
    Over-regulation also played a part. The TGVs have power cars at the
    end, says Wickens, because they run a high voltage line down the
    train. The UK's railway inspectorate would not allow this.
    BR's second mistake was a `mad' decision to build only
    four of the
    eight trains the government had offered 80 per cent funding for in
    1973. In later public spending cuts, this number was cut to
    three. "That killed it," says Wickens. From then on, "the
    reduction
    in the size of the build programme gave a clear message about
    priorities."
    In April 1973 BR transferred responsibility for both the prototype
    service trains and the APT design group to the mechanical engineering
    department. Though by the time of the transfer, there was "a very
    much better atmosphere at the senior levels," tension remained
    lower
    down between the APT group and their new department.
    The culture at BR's manufacturing arm, British Rail Engineering
    (BREL), was also unsympathetic. BREL engineers were used to
    interpreting drawings `quite liberally', says Wickens. This
    was not
    acceptable for a new project based on careful calculation, and the
    old hands resented new boys telling them how to build trains.
    BREL did not stick to the build schedule. "They just didn't
    think it
    was important," says Wickens. "There wasn't the control
    over things
    that went on there that perhaps there should have been."
    The first prototype, ATP-P, did proving trials in May 1979. The
    second ATP-P was completed in late 1979 and the third in 1980. BRB
    was pressing for a commercial service, so the APT's designers and
    builders still had problems to solve when the train started its
    inaugural return run to Glasgow on 7 December 1981.
    Wickens agrees with many others that BR overdid the hospitality in
    Glasgow. This, not the tilt mechanism, caused some passengers to feel
    ill on the return journey, nicknaming APT the `queasy rider'.
    Worse,
    snow and freezing weather caused the water-brakes to freeze up and,
    two days after its first run, the train stopped at Crewe.
    The problems were minor and could have been sorted out, says Wickens,
    and none of them would have surfaced in public if the board had not
    rushed the APT into service prematurely. Though the train soldiered
    on in passenger service for another two years, as another project
    team member, Hugh Williams, told the BBC, "The train had received
    such bad publicity that I don't think the government could have
    given
    the substantial funding increase the project required."
    Even from here, says Wickens, APT was far from a disaster. His dozen-
    long list of outcomes from the project include benefits to the high
    speed train, in service since 1974; dynamics research; a new train
    configuration which is still at the leading edge of world train
    design; aerodynamics work which contributed to Eurostar;
    longitudinally welded lightweight aluminium extrusions and much else.
    Though, as Wickens says, "We didn't export it, at all,"
    he believes
    the APT, "had an enormous influence and stimulated a whole lot of
    work."
    Wickens sums up: "In any major technical development the going
    often
    gets rough and the thing to do is to keep on going. The reason the
    Italians have been successful with tilting trains is they kept going.
    That's the most important lesson."
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1125 From: Gerry Bates Date: 28/02/2004
    Subject: Re: APT / Pendolino in The Manufacturer
    I would be interested to hear Kit's opinion but I think this must be one of the best APT pieces I have ever read. Congratulations to John Dwyer for an informative, dispassionate and unprejudiced article.

    Gerry Bates

    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

    On 28/02/04 at 10:45 Rob Latham wrote:

    >This article appears in the March edition of 'The Manufacturer'
    >
    >
    >This September Virgin Trains accepts the last of 53 nine-coach
    >Pendolino tilting trains to run between London and Glasgow. The story
    >goes that Britain invented the tilting train and should have been
    >exporting it. So what went wrong? John Dwyer digs into what really
    >happened
    >
    >Potent myths surround the UK's on-off love affair with tilting
    >trains: Britain developed tilters first but, when they turned out to
    >be expensive and unreliable, sold the technology to the Italians, who
    >are now selling it back to us. None of this is true. The real story
    >is a more interesting brew of boardroom in-fighting, clashing
    >cultures and politics.
    >Virgin's vision for the £1 billion Pendolino programme it
    >launched in
    >2001 was to double rail travel on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) to
    >30 million passengers a year within five years. The programme foresaw
    >trains running at full tilt – 140mph – along the WCML by May
    >2005.
    >But when escalating cost and delays to the WCML upgrade contributed
    >to Railtrack's going into administration in October 2001, the
    >upgrade, says a Virgin source, `went into the melting pot'.
    >Virgin began a Pendolino service in July 2002, but Pendolino
    >passengers did not arrive at Glasgow Central until January this year.
    >No tilting was involved. Only 50 of the 401 miles of track and
    >signalling from London and Glasgow are equipped for it.
    >By September the track and signals from London to Crewe will allow
    >trains to tilt and reach 125mph. But until December 2005 trains from
    >Crewe to Glasgow will still be restricted to 110mph. To reach their
    >140mph top speed, they must have in-cab signalling which, says a
    >Virgin insider, `does not yet exist'.
    >A similar tale attends Virgin's lower profile Class 221
    >SuperVoyager
    >tilting diesel trains, that were introduced on the CrossCountry
    >routes from October 2002.
    >Tilting trains are no gimmick. The railway rule is that every 1mph
    >increase in average speed brings a one per cent increase in revenue.
    >Corners make passengers uncomfortable at high speed. The French
    >(TGV), German (ICE) and Japanese (Bullet Train) solution was to build
    >new routes with long straight sections linked by steeply banked
    >corners. But for one-tenth to one-twentieth the cost, you can put
    >tilters on existing routes.
    >The WCML offers no such choice. It has too many curves and its
    >northern section runs through valleys with no route for straighter
    >tracks. BR's answer was the tilting advanced passenger train
    >known as
    >the APT.
    >In 1962 BR chief of research Sydney Jones recruited now-Professor
    >Alan Wickens from the aircraft industry as director of advanced
    >projects. When, in 1968, the APT project won 50:50 government
    >funding, Wickens recruited a team, many from aviation, to carry it
    >out.
    >Tilting trains were not new. Though United Aircraft/Sikorsky's
    >passive-tilting Turbotrain went into service in 1968, US experiments
    >go back to the 1930s, and France's TGV decision followed the
    >failure
    >of a tilt experiment in 1956.
    >But the project created friction between Wickens's group and
    >BR's
    >mechanical engineering department, responsible for acquiring new
    >trains. Not only were Wickens and some of his colleagues not
    >railwaymen, but they used computers and other non-railway working
    >methods: "We adopted a systems engineering approach, familiar in
    >the
    >aircraft industry," says Wickens, "where the major design
    >issues were
    >identified and technical decisions made on the basis of
    >calculation... [The] engineering culture on railways had been to
    >design, build, deliver and sort out the problems in service."
    >He adds that, "There were many people on the railways who were
    >anti-
    >research, because it upset people, largely. New ideas you see.
    >It's a
    >very conservative industry."
    >The experimental train, APT-E, had its first run on 25 July 1971.
    >Wickens says it proved BR could build a high speed tilting train. And
    >though the APT-E programme was overspent, its £2.5 million
    >was `miniscule' for a government which spent £2 billion on
    >Concorde
    >between 1967-1976.
    >The cost of the prototype, APT-P, programme "cannot be more than
    >£40
    >million, including depots and other operational investments, and it
    >probably underspent its budget," says Wickens.
    >When the project went ahead in 1973, the specification for a large
    >train with two power cars in the middle – you could not walk from
    >one
    >end to the other – was based on the needs of the WCML.
    >For Wickens, this was the first of BR's two grave mistakes. A
    >slight
    >cut in top speed would have simplified the design, turning APT from
    >one train for one route into a range of trains which could speed up
    >routes all over the country:
    >"They could have had a train that looked very like the
    >Pendolino."
    >Over-regulation also played a part. The TGVs have power cars at the
    >end, says Wickens, because they run a high voltage line down the
    >train. The UK's railway inspectorate would not allow this.
    >BR's second mistake was a `mad' decision to build only
    >four of the
    >eight trains the government had offered 80 per cent funding for in
    >1973. In later public spending cuts, this number was cut to
    >three. "That killed it," says Wickens. From then on, "the
    >reduction
    >in the size of the build programme gave a clear message about
    >priorities."
    >In April 1973 BR transferred responsibility for both the prototype
    >service trains and the APT design group to the mechanical engineering
    >department. Though by the time of the transfer, there was "a very
    >much better atmosphere at the senior levels," tension remained
    >lower
    >down between the APT group and their new department.
    >The culture at BR's manufacturing arm, British Rail Engineering
    >(BREL), was also unsympathetic. BREL engineers were used to
    >interpreting drawings `quite liberally', says Wickens. This
    >was not
    >acceptable for a new project based on careful calculation, and the
    >old hands resented new boys telling them how to build trains.
    >BREL did not stick to the build schedule. "They just didn't
    >think it
    >was important," says Wickens. "There wasn't the control
    >over things
    >that went on there that perhaps there should have been."
    >The first prototype, ATP-P, did proving trials in May 1979. The
    >second ATP-P was completed in late 1979 and the third in 1980. BRB
    >was pressing for a commercial service, so the APT's designers and
    >builders still had problems to solve when the train started its
    >inaugural return run to Glasgow on 7 December 1981.
    >Wickens agrees with many others that BR overdid the hospitality in
    >Glasgow. This, not the tilt mechanism, caused some passengers to feel
    >ill on the return journey, nicknaming APT the `queasy rider'.
    >Worse,
    >snow and freezing weather caused the water-brakes to freeze up and,
    >two days after its first run, the train stopped at Crewe.
    >The problems were minor and could have been sorted out, says Wickens,
    >and none of them would have surfaced in public if the board had not
    >rushed the APT into service prematurely. Though the train soldiered
    >on in passenger service for another two years, as another project
    >team member, Hugh Williams, told the BBC, "The train had received
    >such bad publicity that I don't think the government could have
    >given
    >the substantial funding increase the project required."
    >Even from here, says Wickens, APT was far from a disaster. His dozen-
    >long list of outcomes from the project include benefits to the high
    >speed train, in service since 1974; dynamics research; a new train
    >configuration which is still at the leading edge of world train
    >design; aerodynamics work which contributed to Eurostar;
    >longitudinally welded lightweight aluminium extrusions and much else.
    >Though, as Wickens says, "We didn't export it, at all,"
    >he believes
    >the APT, "had an enormous influence and stimulated a whole lot of
    >work."
    >Wickens sums up: "In any major technical development the going
    >often
    >gets rough and the thing to do is to keep on going. The reason the
    >Italians have been successful with tilting trains is they kept going.
    >That's the most important lesson."
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1126 From: dungareeboy2002 Date: 02/03/2004
    Subject: Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
    Any update on this matter?????????????


    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
    <PAUL@A...> wrote:
    > Hi All,
    > As you all know by now, the E train is going to be moved to Shildon
    > sometime later this year. After many frustrated talks with NRM
    > people, they seem to think that splitting and moving E train is a
    > simple job. I have explained about the problems, but they are just
    > not taking any notice, they are thinking about just fitting a sling
    > about the bodywork and lifting away, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
    >
    > The new guy who has replaced Richard, hasnt even replied to my
    emails
    > and has not even been down to see the support group and introduce
    > himself, they say her doesnt work Saturdays.
    >
    > Kit, I think we need to get something sorted quick, or we may not
    > have an E train to save. I cannot stress enough that the NRM think
    > they know everything about E train, THEY DONT!, they nothing about
    > it, but they think they can just do what the hell they like and it
    > will be ok, because, THEY KNOW BEST.
    >
    > Its just a case as they will not listen. I really do fear that the
    > support groups work over the past few years, is going to come to
    > nothing due to the attitude the NRM is taking over the E train move.
    >
    > Ive also found out that they are going display the E train at
    > railfest, but they havent even had the gratitude to consult with
    the
    > support group. PC2 is still in a none state for moving, they also
    > want people to look inside, which is fine, but we store our
    equipment
    > and parts in TC1, this is turing into a single minded show and I
    > think I need everyones help in trying to get the NRM to listen.
    >
    > Kit, you could maybe give me a bell on this matter.
    >
    > E train needs your help!
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Paul
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1127 From: bathmatus Date: 08/03/2004
    Subject: http://railwayphotographs.picturebook.org.uk/c118635_1.html
    SEE THE FOLLOWIONG FOR MORE PICTURES FROM CREWE

    http://railwayphotographs.picturebook.org.uk/c118635_1.html
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1128 From: Paul Leadley Date: 10/03/2004
    Subject: Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
    Hi All,
    I have sent several emails to Jim Rees, Richard Gibbons replacement
    to explain concerns over the movment of E train.

    Im sorry to say that all he has said so far is, thourght has gone
    into the trains move to Shildon and we know what we are doing....

    I have asked for detailed plans on how the plan to split and move
    the train, but they have refused to tell me.

    I am unsure on how to continue with a plan of action against the
    NRM, Im very very very very disgusted with them, after all the time
    and effort the group have put into the train, they never did
    anything with it, but yet, we are still being pushed out.

    I will post here if and when I get more details.

    Regards

    Paul

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "dungareeboy2002"
    <brian@b...> wrote:
    > Any update on this matter?????????????
    >
    >
    > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
    > <PAUL@A...> wrote:
    > > Hi All,
    > > As you all know by now, the E train is going to be moved to
    Shildon
    > > sometime later this year. After many frustrated talks with NRM
    > > people, they seem to think that splitting and moving E train is
    a
    > > simple job. I have explained about the problems, but they are
    just
    > > not taking any notice, they are thinking about just fitting a
    sling
    > > about the bodywork and lifting away, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
    > >
    > > The new guy who has replaced Richard, hasnt even replied to my
    > emails
    > > and has not even been down to see the support group and
    introduce
    > > himself, they say her doesnt work Saturdays.
    > >
    > > Kit, I think we need to get something sorted quick, or we may
    not
    > > have an E train to save. I cannot stress enough that the NRM
    think
    > > they know everything about E train, THEY DONT!, they nothing
    about
    > > it, but they think they can just do what the hell they like and
    it
    > > will be ok, because, THEY KNOW BEST.
    > >
    > > Its just a case as they will not listen. I really do fear that
    the
    > > support groups work over the past few years, is going to come to
    > > nothing due to the attitude the NRM is taking over the E train
    move.
    > >
    > > Ive also found out that they are going display the E train at
    > > railfest, but they havent even had the gratitude to consult with
    > the
    > > support group. PC2 is still in a none state for moving, they
    also
    > > want people to look inside, which is fine, but we store our
    > equipment
    > > and parts in TC1, this is turing into a single minded show and I
    > > think I need everyones help in trying to get the NRM to listen.
    > >
    > > Kit, you could maybe give me a bell on this matter.
    > >
    > > E train needs your help!
    > >
    > > Regards
    > >
    > > Paul
    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1129 From: Pape Timothy Date: 10/03/2004
    Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E tr ain!!!!!! Im not kidding!
    For goodness sake, NRM, LISTEN TO WHAT THE PEOPLE IN THE KNOW ARE SAYING TO
    YOU...!!!

    Do these idiots want anything in the national collection, or are they just
    trying to break everything so they don't have to look after it anymore?
    When the RTC presented it to them all those years ago, I'll bet they didn't
    expect it to end up like this.

    I know they haven't put much (if any) effort into looking after the E-Train,
    and that it has all been done by the members of the group.

    The members of the group who've given their time and efforts should be
    seriously congratulated for their efforts so far in the restoration of this
    magnificent and revolutionary train.

    Someone at the NRM needs a kick up the backside.

    Paul, please keep fighting for the safety and survival of the E-Train.

    Cheers,

    Tim.
    http://tims-pics.fotopic.net

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Paul Leadley [mailto:PAUL@...]
    Sent: 10 March 2004 17:31
    To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: <APT Group> Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!


    Hi All,
    I have sent several emails to Jim Rees, Richard Gibbons replacement
    to explain concerns over the movment of E train.

    Im sorry to say that all he has said so far is, thourght has gone
    into the trains move to Shildon and we know what we are doing....

    I have asked for detailed plans on how the plan to split and move
    the train, but they have refused to tell me.

    I am unsure on how to continue with a plan of action against the
    NRM, Im very very very very disgusted with them, after all the time
    and effort the group have put into the train, they never did
    anything with it, but yet, we are still being pushed out.

    I will post here if and when I get more details.

    Regards

    Paul

    --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "dungareeboy2002"
    <brian@b...> wrote:
    > Any update on this matter?????????????
    >
    >
    > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
    > <PAUL@A...> wrote:
    > > Hi All,
    > > As you all know by now, the E train is going to be moved to
    Shildon
    > > sometime later this year. After many frustrated talks with NRM
    > > people, they seem to think that splitting and moving E train is
    a
    > > simple job. I have explained about the problems, but they are
    just
    > > not taking any notice, they are thinking about just fitting a
    sling
    > > about the bodywork and lifting away, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
    > >
    > > The new guy who has replaced Richard, hasnt even replied to my
    > emails
    > > and has not even been down to see the support group and
    introduce
    > > himself, they say her doesnt work Saturdays.
    > >
    > > Kit, I think we need to get something sorted quick, or we may
    not
    > > have an E train to save. I cannot stress enough that the NRM
    think
    > > they know everything about E train, THEY DONT!, they nothing
    about
    > > it, but they think they can just do what the hell they like and
    it
    > > will be ok, because, THEY KNOW BEST.
    > >
    > > Its just a case as they will not listen. I really do fear that
    the
    > > support groups work over the past few years, is going to come to
    > > nothing due to the attitude the NRM is taking over the E train
    move.
    > >
    > > Ive also found out that they are going display the E train at
    > > railfest, but they havent even had the gratitude to consult with
    > the
    > > support group. PC2 is still in a none state for moving, they
    also
    > > want people to look inside, which is fine, but we store our
    > equipment
    > > and parts in TC1, this is turing into a single minded show and I
    > > think I need everyones help in trying to get the NRM to listen.
    > >
    > > Kit, you could maybe give me a bell on this matter.
    > >
    > > E train needs your help!
    > >
    > > Regards
    > >
    > > Paul




    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links
    Yahoo! Groups Links





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    Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1130 From: Nick Wheat Date: 10/03/2004
    Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E tr ain!!!!!! Im not kidding!
    Attachments :
      This is how the NRM is treating one of its more prized modern traction
      exhibits.

      And this machine actually hauls trains from time to time and is stored
      undercover!

      You really must fear for the future of the E-Train on this evidence.

      Seeing as a Class 50 has been passed on to STEAM in Swindon, it being
      deemed no longer important enough to form a part of the National
      Collection, perhaps it's time for the NRM to vest the E Train with the
      support group and leave them to do what they know is for the best long
      term future of the machine(s).

      Regards

      Nick

      --
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1131 From: Rob Latham Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: APT IN CHANNEL TUNNEL
      See

      http://www.apt-p.com/PROmt149-165p1.jpg

      http://www.apt-p.com/PROmt149-165p2.jpg

      a little hard to read - perhaps someone will kindly type it up for
      me ???
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1132 From: katherine bone Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E train Just who is responsible
      Dear Paul,
      Do you think anything could be achieved by getting in touch with the head of
      the science museum in London. After all the NRM is part of the science
      museum. And it is just part of the nation's museum collections. Surely
      there'll be someone there to whom the staff at the NRM are answerable. Jim
      Rees certainly doesn't own the train, so he and his cohorts must be
      answerable to someone. And if he trashes the train the person in charge of
      managing the national collection is going to ask questions.

      Local MPs???




      Katherine Bone



      >From: "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@...>
      >Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: <APT Group> Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
      >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:31:22 -0000
      >
      >Hi All,
      >I have sent several emails to Jim Rees, Richard Gibbons replacement
      >to explain concerns over the movment of E train.
      >
      >Im sorry to say that all he has said so far is, thourght has gone
      >into the trains move to Shildon and we know what we are doing....
      >
      >I have asked for detailed plans on how the plan to split and move
      >the train, but they have refused to tell me.
      >
      >I am unsure on how to continue with a plan of action against the
      >NRM, Im very very very very disgusted with them, after all the time
      >and effort the group have put into the train, they never did
      >anything with it, but yet, we are still being pushed out.
      >
      >I will post here if and when I get more details.
      >
      >Regards
      >
      >Paul
      >
      >--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "dungareeboy2002"
      ><brian@b...> wrote:
      > > Any update on this matter?????????????
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
      > > <PAUL@A...> wrote:
      > > > Hi All,
      > > > As you all know by now, the E train is going to be moved to
      >Shildon
      > > > sometime later this year. After many frustrated talks with NRM
      > > > people, they seem to think that splitting and moving E train is
      >a
      > > > simple job. I have explained about the problems, but they are
      >just
      > > > not taking any notice, they are thinking about just fitting a
      >sling
      > > > about the bodywork and lifting away, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
      > > >
      > > > The new guy who has replaced Richard, hasnt even replied to my
      > > emails
      > > > and has not even been down to see the support group and
      >introduce
      > > > himself, they say her doesnt work Saturdays.
      > > >
      > > > Kit, I think we need to get something sorted quick, or we may
      >not
      > > > have an E train to save. I cannot stress enough that the NRM
      >think
      > > > they know everything about E train, THEY DONT!, they nothing
      >about
      > > > it, but they think they can just do what the hell they like and
      >it
      > > > will be ok, because, THEY KNOW BEST.
      > > >
      > > > Its just a case as they will not listen. I really do fear that
      >the
      > > > support groups work over the past few years, is going to come to
      > > > nothing due to the attitude the NRM is taking over the E train
      >move.
      > > >
      > > > Ive also found out that they are going display the E train at
      > > > railfest, but they havent even had the gratitude to consult with
      > > the
      > > > support group. PC2 is still in a none state for moving, they
      >also
      > > > want people to look inside, which is fine, but we store our
      > > equipment
      > > > and parts in TC1, this is turing into a single minded show and I
      > > > think I need everyones help in trying to get the NRM to listen.
      > > >
      > > > Kit, you could maybe give me a bell on this matter.
      > > >
      > > > E train needs your help!
      > > >
      > > > Regards
      > > >
      > > > Paul
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
      http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1133 From: richard.n.richards Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: Re: Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!
      hi all
      1stly even though i am not a member of the support group of the apt-e and a mermber of the public.
       I myself from a railway family (father was a WR signalman in the cardiff valleys area) thought it would be
       far better to move the E-train by rail  from york to shildon via the slow lines to darlington rather than
      split it up as i can see that there would be problems with the split and also hauling it by road as the
      roads in the shildon area espcially near the site of the new village building is narrow and also there are many parked cars etc.
      I do know for a fact that there is a spur from the mainline at shildon to connect with the demo line there.
       
      Also there should be a barrier wagon of some sort somewhere ie at the rtc in derby where it could be attached to.
       
      I will support the group in any way that i can even though i am not a member (as of yet)
       
      nigel
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:31 PM
      Subject: <APT Group> Re: I fear for the E train!!!!!! Im not kidding!

      Hi All,
      I have sent several emails to Jim Rees, Richard Gibbons replacement
      to explain concerns over the movment of E train.

      Im sorry to say that all he has said so far is, thourght has gone
      into the trains move to Shildon and we know what we are doing....

      I have asked for detailed plans on how the plan to split and move
      the train, but they have refused to tell me.

      I am unsure on how to continue with a plan of action against the
      NRM, Im very very very very disgusted with them, after all the time
      and effort the group have put into the train, they never did
      anything with it, but yet, we are still being pushed out.

      I will post here if and when I get more details.

      Regards

      Paul

      --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "dungareeboy2002"
      <brian@b...> wrote:
      > Any update on this matter?????????????
      >
      >
      > --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Leadley"
      > <PAUL@A...> wrote:
      > > Hi All,
      > > As you all know by now, the E train is going to be moved to
      Shildon
      > > sometime later this year.  After many frustrated talks with NRM
      > > people, they seem to think that splitting and moving E train is
      a
      > > simple job.  I have explained about the problems, but they are
      just
      > > not taking any notice, they are thinking about just fitting a
      sling
      > > about the bodywork and lifting away, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
      > >
      > > The new guy who has replaced Richard, hasnt even replied to my
      > emails
      > > and has not even been down to see the support group and
      introduce
      > > himself, they say her doesnt work Saturdays.
      > >
      > > Kit, I think we need to get something sorted quick, or we may
      not
      > > have an E train to save. I cannot stress enough that the NRM
      think
      > > they know everything about E train, THEY DONT!, they nothing
      about
      > > it, but they think they can just do what the hell they like and
      it
      > > will be ok, because, THEY KNOW BEST. 
      > >
      > > Its just a case as they will not listen. I really do fear that
      the
      > > support groups work over the past few years, is going to come to
      > > nothing due to the attitude the NRM is taking over the E train
      move.
      > >
      > > Ive also found out that they are going display the E train at
      > > railfest, but they havent even had the gratitude to consult with
      > the
      > > support group.  PC2 is still in a none state for moving, they
      also
      > > want people to look inside, which is fine, but we store our
      > equipment
      > > and parts in TC1, this is turing into a single minded show and I
      > > think I need everyones help in trying to get the NRM to listen.
      > >
      > > Kit, you could maybe give me a bell on this matter.
      > >
      > > E train needs your help!
      > >
      > > Regards
      > >
      > > Paul



      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/links


      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1134 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: Re: Re: fear for the E train
      The relationship between the group and NRM seems almost hopelessly poisoned,
      and getting worse rather than better. In that atmosphere, the solution
      that's taken will have to be political.

      Local MPs are one very good way to go, particularly if members of the group
      have access both to Lords and Commons who are interested in railways.

      Do NOT send bulk e-mails, take a combative tone, say bad things about NRM or
      its membership, etc. OTHER than about the issue of moving the train. My
      advice would be to start by writing well-thought-out, HANDWRITTEN letters,
      mentioning personal details, to MPs and executive staff members with
      'gatekeeping' access to them. I would include SPECIFIC details of the
      expected problems, the tragedy of their outcomes, and equally specific
      recommendations about what to do during the move.

      Imho, one of the things to try to arrange is to have the issue raised at the
      PM's Question Time, preferably with a substantial group of MPs ready to
      support the question when it is raised. I suspect the PM's staff can get
      the NRM people... no matter how they behave to group members... in line ;-}


      I'm not British and therefore don't think it's my place to do any of this
      directly. But everyone in the group needs to start getting the word out
      effectively, and to start drumming up support for APT preservation (and NOT
      at the expense or perceived expense of NRM) with others who may have access
      to MPs or other forces of influence.


      If the MP approach fails, take it to the press. Get this covered from
      sufficient angles, and even NRM's probable responses will help stir up
      interest! There will be a 'logical' news story in the upcoming move.
      Provide helpful, colorful information to the papers, BBC, indies, etc. well
      in advance -- together with 'business cards and a smile' for future contact
      as experts. Make up some useful news stories targeted at the different
      groups of audience each medium caters to -- some will be more technical,
      others political, others nostalgic. After the seeds have been planted about
      how important the APT is... run other stories that begin to worry about how
      the move will be accomplished, how the train may be irretrievably damaged,
      etc. (Ah, rhetoric, what a wonderful school subject you were!)

      Today would not be too early to start these activities, and to start
      coordinating them and building a grassroots coordination network.

      RME
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1135 From: Andrew Jones Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: Re: APT IN CHANNEL TUNNEL
      Rob Latham wrote:
      > See
      >
      > http://www.apt-p.com/PROmt149-165p1.jpg
      >
      > http://www.apt-p.com/PROmt149-165p2.jpg
      >
      > a little hard to read - perhaps someone will kindly type it up for
      > me ???

      Interesting.
      I'll happily type it up. I'll get to it straight away unless someone's
      beat me to it... :)

      --
      Andrew Jones
      http://www.trustphotosite.com/andy29
      Please visit http://worldrallyradio.tk
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1136 From: Laurie Still Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: Re: Re: fear for the E train
      Hi Everyone,
      Robert Ellsworth suggests that we write to our MP's
      about the E-train's future.
      We are spread all over the country. If we each
      wrote to our individual MP's would that get much more
      than the standard response letter and signed photo?
      Would it not be better to concentrate our energies
      in one place? Perhaps writing to York's MP, Hugh
      Bailey, or the Minister of transport, or even Charles
      Kenedy, the Lib-Dem leader, as he is a train
      enthusiast.
      What about Virgin Trains? They wan't to put a
      Pendolino next to E-train at Rail Fest. Perhaps they
      might be interested in its fate?
      Besides from Politicians what about famous people?
      I can think of three. Pete Waterman, obviously, and
      Bruce Dickenson, the lead singer of Iron Maiden, who
      was eulogising about p-train in a recent television
      documentory. Also in this weeks Radio Times there is
      an article about Mark Williams (of Fast Show fame) who
      is going to be doing a series about the railways soon.
      What about the people who built e-train and who
      spent years of their lives, eating, sleeping breathing
      e-train. Kit, you're obviously on board, but what
      about the others? Would you be able to speak to any of
      them or even give us a list of names and probable
      locations where we might track them down?
      Any way that is my few penneth worth on the subject
      for now, some of my ideas might be rubbish, but I
      thought I'd share them with you just incase.

      kind regards

      Laurie






      ___________________________________________________________
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      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1137 From: Kit Spackman Date: 11/03/2004
      Subject: Moving E-Train,
      Paul and Nigel,

      >....thought it would be far better to move the E-train by rail from york
      to shildon via the slow lines to darlington >rather than split it up as i
      can see that there would be problems with the split <

      Firstly I've just caught up with this potential disaster, having been in
      our Berlin office for a while. Paul, I'll try and phone you tomorrow
      (Friday) about this and see what we can do.

      Nigel,

      Moving E-Train to Sheldon by rail just isn't possible. Firstly it would
      never get a certificate from Network Rail having been standing for 26+
      years, we'd have to change all the wheels, axle bearings etc. etc. Even if
      that was possible, it's out of gauge for most of the track these days.
      Remember the Power Cars are the longest locos ever to run on Britain's
      railways and every test run we did with it had to be specially cleared to
      make sure the long overhangs on the PCs didn't foul anything. Sometimes
      they did...

      I'm afraid it's a non-starter by rail.

      The way the NRM seem to going about it's a non-starter by road as well.
      They run a severe chance of physically breaking the vehicles unless they do
      it by the correct method. All the time I was able to visit York for the
      Working Weekends there was a severe reluctance on the NRM's part to look
      for the equipment that was specially designed for moving the various
      vehicles. Paul and I tried on numerous occasions to gain access to the
      store area where these things may be kept. I even provided a photograph
      showing the lifting hooks in use on PC2, all to no avail. There seems to be
      the same attitude at the NRM regarding E-Train as we had in the RTC from
      the CM&EE's Dept. 'Not Invented Here.............'

      Regards
      Kit
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1138 From: Rob Latham Date: 12/03/2004
      Subject: Channel Tunnel APT
      Hi all

      Robert Ellsworth kindly typed up the Channel Tunnel document for me,
      so I'll be including it on a webpage as soon as I get permission to
      reproduce it.

      Many Thanks


      Rob
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1139 From: Rob Latham Date: 12/03/2004
      Subject: RAILNEWS Supplement
      Original 1980 Railnews APT supplement on eBay -

      http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2230377339


      For text see -

      http://www.apt-p.com/RailNewsNovember1980Index.htm


      Best Wishes


      Rob
      Group: Advanced-Passenger-Train Message: 1140 From: Robert M. Ellsworth Date: 12/03/2004
      Subject: Re: APT IN CHANNEL TUNNEL
      Just did it. If you want a copy, tell me (it's presently a .rtf file, done
      in Word X on a Mac)

      RME