1981 all over again?

from BBC: Tilting Trains face axe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2218949.stm

Hi everyone

Silver_Dream_Racer wrote:

>
> Without major work to all the systems in the train, due to water
> ingress and rusting and general deterioration of everything, she
> will never more under her own power again, but we do have plans to
> get PC2 or TC1 to tilt again,

Always keep the ambition. The Metrovick (D5705) was last fired up in
1976 but she *will* fire again.... one day...

Why? Because we want her too!

Because we have the deire and ambition.

And when the Class 14 refurb at Bury is finished, we will (bloody well
hope so after all these years!) have the manpower.

Nothing is insurmountable. Belief is the first big hurdle, but clear
that and the others are just that little bit lower.... except possibly
the one named money!!!

Anyone thought of a Lottery Fund application?

Nick

Hi Nick, all,
The will to get E train moving is very much with us in the support
group, by god we would all love to see it.

We have a problem that doesnt really apply to any other locomotive
in the fact that E train is very much a one off, although a lot of
standard parts are used in her, its the way they are used and linked
together thats the problem. We have large number of drawings, to
cover most of the individual parts of E train, but its how they fit
together that we are lacking.

The turbines are one offs, altough now we are in contact with
Alan "Ten turbine Al" Goodley, who looked after the power units on
E train, we have Kit, "MR Tilt" Spackman to sort out the tilting
system also.

Given loads of money and a lot of time, she could run again I
suppose, but I doubt I will see her do it again, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW!

The best I think we can hope for in the near future is a newly
painted and exernaly repaired E train running past us being pushed
by a shunter, or a uni-mog.

While at Shildon, we are planning to have a display coach setup in
one half of TC1, The film "E for experimental" on flat screen tvs in
the VIP lounge of TC1. TC2 lightup and playing the intercom tapes
over the intercom, and on special days guid people through PC2 and
into its cab, then show them tilting of the very first active
tilting train in the world.

PC1, we are hoping to turn it into a virtual train simulator. Flat
screen monitor over the windscreen, loud speakers. You will sit in
the driving seat and run the groups version of E train for MSTS,
well thats what we would like.

If we can gain enough support, Im sure we can pull it off.

In the mean time, any rich people out there and wont to support the
rescue of APT-E, you know who to get in contact with!

Watch this space.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., Nick Wheat <wheaty@d...> wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> Silver_Dream_Racer wrote:
> >
> > Without major work to all the systems in the train, due to water
> > ingress and rusting and general deterioration of everything, she
> > will never more under her own power again, but we do have plans
to
> > get PC2 or TC1 to tilt again,
>
> Always keep the ambition. The Metrovick (D5705) was last fired up
in
> 1976 but she *will* fire again.... one day...
>
> Why? Because we want her too!
>
> Because we have the deire and ambition.
>
> And when the Class 14 refurb at Bury is finished, we will (bloody
well
> hope so after all these years!) have the manpower.
>
> Nothing is insurmountable. Belief is the first big hurdle, but
clear
> that and the others are just that little bit lower.... except
possibly
> the one named money!!!
>
> Anyone thought of a Lottery Fund application?
>
> Nick

Lottery Fund application eh? Funny that - I was just thinking exactly
that myself these past few days, so I did a little research.

I believe it would have to be a heritage application. The Heritage
Lottery Fund's web site (www.hlf.org.uk) states:

"Every year we help millions of people throughout the United Kingdom
to care for and protect our heritage, to learn about and enjoy our
heritage, and improve the quality of life for our own and future
generations."

Sounds like APT-E and APT-P groups should both seriously consider
applying for a grant. An application can be made on-line, but this
must be a properly investigated matter before hand.

I don't want to get all political or anything but the Lottery Fund
has recently awarded approx £750,000 to an organisation that
fights
to keep illegal immigrants IN this country, so surely they would be
prepared to give a little to preserve and protect an important part
our railway heritage. Surely?

Someone make a move PLEASE - lots of money is available.

Hi all,
As it happens, I have been looking into this over the past few
months and have been working on a detailed project breakdown for APT-
E. As cash is very short at the NRM this seemed like the only thing
to do to get E train ship shape.

With a little luck my application should be sent in in the next few
weeks, after Ive got loads of people in the know to look at it.

Restoration of PC2 (both), TC1 (Both) and PC1 (External) would be in
the region of £10 - 15k, although in order to setup PC1 as a train
simulator would maybe cost us another £4-5k to make it look and
sound right.

I will keep you all informed as to my progress.

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, NRM, York

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "this_is_a_wind_up"
<yahoo@h...> wrote:

> Lottery Fund application eh? Funny that - I was just thinking

exactly

> that myself these past few days, so I did a little research.
>
> I believe it would have to be a heritage application. The Heritage
> Lottery Fund's web site (www.hlf.org.uk) states:
>
> "Every year we help millions of people throughout the United

Kingdom

> to care for and protect our heritage, to learn about and enjoy our
> heritage, and improve the quality of life for our own and future
> generations."
>
> Sounds like APT-E and APT-P groups should both seriously consider
> applying for a grant. An application can be made on-line, but this
> must be a properly investigated matter before hand.
>
> I don't want to get all political or anything but the Lottery Fund
> has recently awarded approx £750,000 to an organisation that
> fights
> to keep illegal immigrants IN this country, so surely they would

be

> prepared to give a little to preserve and protect an important

part

> our railway heritage. Surely?
>
> Someone make a move PLEASE - lots of money is available.

Paul
Has Alan Goodley got an E-mail address so I can contact him.

BP
p.s. I am a little closer with my little bit of cine film of E-train in
getting it converted into Video+CD Rom, but it's linked in with an overall
plan for family stuff, won;t be too long I hope.

Hi Brian,
Yes he has, but Ive just moved house and its on my home computer
which hasnt got internet access yet so I cannot get to it, BT should
have a phone line sorted for me tomorrow with luck, so I will drop
you a line with it on then.

Good news about the cine film, did you ever get those other tapes
and stuff to Kit, if so, I will have to get them off him the next
time he is up working on E train.

How do you like the BP section on the E train site? A picture of
you then and now would be nice to add.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., eth1607688@a... wrote:
> Paul
> Has Alan Goodley got an E-mail address so I can contact him.
>
> BP
> p.s. I am a little closer with my little bit of cine film of E-
train in
> getting it converted into Video+CD Rom, but it's linked in with an
overall
> plan for family stuff, won;t be too long I hope.

Oh my god,
another member of the engineering team who could help us with many
parts of E train is Brian Porter, assistant train supervisor, see
www.apt-e.org for more details.

Sorry Brian, ive been brain dead for the past month or so.

Any E train old team who worked on the brakes, electrics or any
thing else, please get in contact, we need your help!

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Silver_Dream_Racer"
<PAUL@A...> wrote:

> Hi Nick, all,
> The will to get E train moving is very much with us in the support
> group, by god we would all love to see it.
>
> We have a problem that doesnt really apply to any other locomotive
> in the fact that E train is very much a one off, although a lot of
> standard parts are used in her, its the way they are used and

linked

> together thats the problem. We have large number of drawings, to
> cover most of the individual parts of E train, but its how they

fit

> together that we are lacking.
>
> The turbines are one offs, altough now we are in contact with
> Alan "Ten turbine Al" Goodley, who looked after the power units

on

> E train, we have Kit, "MR Tilt" Spackman to sort out the tilting
> system also.
>
> Given loads of money and a lot of time, she could run again I
> suppose, but I doubt I will see her do it again, BUT YOU NEVER

KNOW!

>
> The best I think we can hope for in the near future is a newly
> painted and exernaly repaired E train running past us being pushed
> by a shunter, or a uni-mog.
>
> While at Shildon, we are planning to have a display coach setup in
> one half of TC1, The film "E for experimental" on flat screen tvs

in

> the VIP lounge of TC1. TC2 lightup and playing the intercom tapes
> over the intercom, and on special days guid people through PC2

and

> into its cab, then show them tilting of the very first active
> tilting train in the world.
>
> PC1, we are hoping to turn it into a virtual train simulator.

Flat

> screen monitor over the windscreen, loud speakers. You will sit

in

> the driving seat and run the groups version of E train for MSTS,
> well thats what we would like.
>
> If we can gain enough support, Im sure we can pull it off.
>
> In the mean time, any rich people out there and wont to support

the

> rescue of APT-E, you know who to get in contact with!
>
> Watch this space.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group
>
>
>
>
> --- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., Nick Wheat <wheaty@d...>

wrote:

> > Hi everyone
> >
> > Silver_Dream_Racer wrote:
> > >
> > > Without major work to all the systems in the train, due to

water

> > > ingress and rusting and general deterioration of everything,

she

> > > will never more under her own power again, but we do have

plans

> to
> > > get PC2 or TC1 to tilt again,
> >
> > Always keep the ambition. The Metrovick (D5705) was last fired

up

> in
> > 1976 but she *will* fire again.... one day...
> >
> > Why? Because we want her too!
> >
> > Because we have the deire and ambition.
> >
> > And when the Class 14 refurb at Bury is finished, we will

(bloody

> well
> > hope so after all these years!) have the manpower.
> >
> > Nothing is insurmountable. Belief is the first big hurdle, but
> clear
> > that and the others are just that little bit lower.... except
> possibly
> > the one named money!!!
> >
> > Anyone thought of a Lottery Fund application?
> >
> > Nick

Kit and Paul

The coach in question was definitely not 'Pilot' (p71 of Hugh's book) and nothing to do with Mk IV coaches except a tenuous connection through the name 'InterCity 225'. I've been scanning (by eye!) Hugh's book to remind me of a few things and this is what I gleaned:

The vehicle was a standard APT-P body modified to take two APT-P BT12 end trailer bogies because the BR powers-that-be were getting jittery about articulation. There was a development of the BT12 called the BT32 but I'm unsure as to whether this was the bogie on the vehicle in question. It certainly had nothing to do with the bogie under the Mk IVs, which was originally to have been a development of BREL's bogie fitted to the Class 58s, but was eventually awarded to the Swiss company SIG. (They should have learned the lesson from the disastrous Swiss Schlieren bogies put under the Blue Pullmans!)

Hugh relates the development of paper-study APT concepts in the mid-1980s. The APT-P centre power cars were an engineering expediency resulting from the need to use only one pantograph for current collection. When the service speed was dropped from 155mph to 140mph for APT-S (Squadron) it became possible to adopt a 1+10 formation but articulation was retained.

This was followed by APT-U (Ultimate?) which did away with articulation but reinstated a second power car, in a 1+10+1 formation, because of worries about adhesion on Beattock and Shap. However, current collection problems with a second pantograph reduced the maximum speed to 125mph. (I wonder whether anyone thought of powering the bogies on the adjacent passenger vehicle!)

The final act (on paper!) was to do away with the second power car - and the name APT! 'InterCity 225' could revert to a maximum speed of 140mph but the hydrokinetic brake was to be dropped, as the BT12 bogies, and their additional axles, made it possible to achieve the required braking power using disc brakes. Two BT12's per coach also gave the advantages of a better ride than the BT11 articulation bogies and the operational flexibility which articulation lacks.

Note: it was still a tilting APT and the artist's impression of the power car on p106 of Hugh's book gives an interesting comparison with a Class 91. The name 'InterCity 225' was transferred to Class 91 + Mk IVs but they shouldn't be confused.

Regards

Gerry

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 24/08/02 at 04:14 Kit Spackman wrote:

>Ian and Gerry and Simon,
>
>>I recently came across an interesting photo of the APT-P which has left me
> puzzled, I have attached a >scan of the photo.<
>
>Interesting, that, where did the photo come from?
>
>Gerry, what was this coach called? I've heard rumours about it, and rather
>assumed it was 'Pilot,', the prototype P-Train coach that ran in the POP-2
>formation. As 'Pilot' was incapable of being used as a real P-Train coach
>(it had some fundamental bits missing, like holes on the structure for the
>air-con etc.) without a radical re-build, it might seem logical that it was
>re-built in four axle form.
>
>Paul and I can both remember seeing this vehicle parked alone south of a
>station on the ECML some years ago, but I can't remember which station now.
>Paul may be able to though.
>
>Simon, there are rumours afoot that the NRM will move the last P-Train
>power car to Shildon when it opens, but who would do the massive
>restoration job required before it can be publicaly displayed is open to
>conjecture. If they spend serious Museum money on it I can us in the
>E-Train Group getting upset, when there's a pretty darn good P-Train Power
>Car at Crewe.
>
>In passing, I was given a superb guided tour of the whole of P-Train at
>Crewe this week, (thanks a lot Rob...) and saw a Mk VI tilt pack 'in situ'
>in the Power Car for the first time in many years. I almost felt a need to
>do manual re-tune of the servo-valves............ <g>
>
>Regards
>Kit
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>When E train testing was complete it moved to NRM "under its own power." I

have since seen a few >posts that it cannot run today. Why is this so? <

How long have you got???

We certainly did arrive at York under gas turbine power, albeit not all ten
turbines were running as we didn't need that much power to run at normal
line speeds. I think we had 3 running in each power car on the day.

But..............

If you leave a piece of machinery standing still for 26 years, all of them
outside in the elements, things corrode and decay etc. Not to mention that
the diesel APUs and the batteries were removed at the time E-Train was
donated to the NRM, either one of which would prevent startup.

Even assuming that the equipment was in pristine condition, the biggest
single problem would be the lack of expertise on the non-standard systems.
Gas turbine traction engineers aren't two a penny for a start, and the only
one of us from the original team still available is me. While I might well
be able to get the tilt systems running again, given enough time and
financial input, I wouldn't know where to start on the braking systems
(that's not meant to be a pun.....)

And............

Even if by some miracle we had all the systems operational, and a train
full of engineers to run it, there is the problem of Railtrack Mk 2 letting
us run on their track. Because the E-Train power cars are still the longest
locomotives ever to run on British railways E-Train is quite considerably
out of gauge, and had to run under Special Notices during it's entire
career, which meant the tracks we used were alll surveyed beforehand to
make sure we didn't hit anything. Nowadays all the tracks and platforms
etc. have moved and the surveys would have to be done again, but who'd pay
for them?

As you can see, it's an extremely unlikely proposition that we'll be able
to run E-Train under her own power again. Unless a benevolent milionaire
comes along of course..........

Regards
Kit

That is quite simply the funniest Subject line I have ever read. Give
yourself a pat on the back.

Do you think Ian Allan will produce a book? Should we all buy one
before they go scarce?

The Advanced Passenger Train Driver's Test

The Advanced Passenger Train (APT) is a monster so removed from the
normal run of trains, and its driver's test so different from the
normal train driver's test, that it truly qualifies as an advanced
test of railcraft.

To start with, you are being tested for a certificate in which not
only your future employer, but also British Transport Police and the
Health and Safety Executive have an interest. Previous train driver
experience does not necessarily help, and those who belong to railway
preservation societies and have once stood on the footplate of a
steam engine need definitely not apply.

The APT concept dates from the 1960's. It was revolutionary then and
is still revolutionary now. The idea was to take a train to ever
higher speeds along conventional track by means of an active
suspension system which even tilted the coaches as they went round
the bends.

Training of the Forward Train Manager (FTM, the official title)
starts, as with an airline pilot, on a simulator, situated in an
unassuming warehouse-like building in Berkshire. There is a full mock-
up of the engine and the first carriage. As in reality, one must
first "hang the brass" before opening the cab door. This phrase
refers to the 30 cm brass disc which is the FTM's personal
identifier, with his name and qualifying date surrounding a composite
picture of Stephenson's Rocket and the APT engine. This must be
locked into its secure halter on the outside of the engine before the
diesel motors can even be started. Possession of this identifier disc
is of course a source of tremendous pride to the FTM, who almost
always buys a miniature version to fix to his car, though the
tradition is strictly observed that the badge is covered when someone
else is driving. Beginners make do with an aluminium plate.
Before hanging the plate and entering the cab, I had to do the
outside checks, going through a checklist a bit like Petrol, Oil,
Water, Electricity and Rubber. I once muttered "No cows on the cow-
catcher" to one of my senior observers, but it did not go down too
well. Once inside the cab, sit down, turn the key, observe the lights
come on, start the auxiliary motors, and then, bizarrely, leave the
seat to attend to a small lever near the cab door. This serves to
test the suspension by pressurising one side at a time. Feeling
slightly queasy, I look back through the side window as the
locomotive and first carriage rock each way in turn. Just as well the
lever is far out of reach of the driver's seat!

The actual test is conducted under Code Blue railway conditions.
Although it may look like a normal working day, the signal boxes
along the test route are manned with the most senior staff and even
the station clerks have an extra manager looking over their
shoulders. There are also extra police on duty, though fewer than for
Code Purple, which is invoked for Royal Trains. All in all, it is a
pretty daunting prospect for the candidate, knowing that all these
folk are wishing him well, and that he must not let them down.
Unlike most test situations the candidate is allowed to choose the
start and finish of the route. I would really have liked to take a
Continental tour from Amsterdam to Hamburg, because the East-West
Amsterdam to Berlin route makes a cross with the South-North Bonn to
Hamburg route in Osnabrück station. The link is by a long curve, so
one has the pleasure of setting off from the station and, 10 minutes
later, of steaming through it again on a different level! However,
the examiner allowed me my second choice, a more modest trip from
Derby to Sheffield, though he exerted his usual privilege of
diverting me past some main-line track repairs.

Entering the first tunnel, I switched on the Hydrolight main beam.
This wonderful piece of technology, a direct link with the early age
of railways, relies on the interaction of a stream of oxyhydrogen gas
and calcium oxide, and dispenses with the need for a high-powered
projector bulb, which may fail.

All good things come to an end, and most bad ones, including
railcraft tests. I had not slipped a red light, nor overrun the
finishing mark near the buffers, but even then I was mightily pleased
to hear the examiner say "Well done!", before asking to take over my
aluminium plate.

Copyright © PHP Harris 1999

Well well I had absolutely NO mail about the APT Drivers Test !

It was of course a complete wind up © PHP Harris 1999 I just came
across it whilst searching the net
( http://www.peterharris.org.uk/roadsafety/apt.html )


Rob

Hi All,
Just fixed some more bugs and re-designed the nose cone for E train.
Looks a lot better now, also converted the textures for the bogies
to high res, so they look better too.

See what you think.

http://www.apt-e.org

New download is still about 1 meg.

Regards

Paul.

PS. Anyone fancy having a go at the cab for E train, please email
me if you do and I will supply any photographs you might need.

Cheers

Every so often I do a search for "Advanced Passenger Train."
I found this page today:

http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/train.html

I remember seeing pictures of this train when I was a child
(Personally I think it is one of, if not the ugliest train I have
ever seen). Anyway, the article is very interesting and the train has
many similar features of E train: it was built around same time
period (1968, service 1971), gas turbines, articulated bogies (they
are referred to as axles), and some sort of tilting system. Aircraft
technology was built into the train as well. Unfortunately, this
train, like APT-P, was eventually withdrawn from service after a few
years.

Any thoughts?

>Anyway, the article is very interesting and the train has many similar

features of E train: it was built around >same time period (1968, service
1971), gas turbines, articulated bogies (they are referred to as axles),

>and some sort of tilting system. Aircraft technology was built into the

train as well. Unfortunately, this

>train, like APT-P, was eventually withdrawn from service after a few

years. <

What it DOESN'T say on the web page is that the system used Spanish RENFE
Talgo Train technology for the coaches. So when it says 'axles' they really
were axles. The Talgo only has one axle per articulation joint with an A
frame mounted on top and a bellows type joint between the coches. The coach
bodies 'hang' from this A frame and 'tilt' (...used in it's widest possible
sense....) into the bends.

Because it's not a powered tilt system and uses the centrifugal force
itself to lean the bodies over, it can't compensate for the cant
defficiancy wholly unless it's on a very long bend. The response rate will
be determined by the geometry of the A frame and the CG position of the
coach body.

The RENFE built some non-tilting Talgos too, but these still had the single
axle articulation, and that was their main problem. It's very difficult to
get such a train configuration stable and to ride well at the same time. If
it's damped hard enough not to swerve all over the place the ride is as
hard as nails. The Turbo-Train suffered exactly the same problems, and
didn't run at high speed for very long. The CN ones were in service
longest, and I believe they also bought up the remnants of the US Amtrak
and New Haven fleets as well.

With hindsight (the world's only exact science.....) it might well have be
worth developing pendelum type tilt systems, albeit not with Talgo axles.
As we've learnt through APT-P and the X-2000, Super Voyager etc. it's
better for the passenger NOT to compensate for all the cant defficiency,
but I suspect it would need some fiendish suspension strut system to get
the coaches to tilt at a sensible response rate.

Regards
Kit

Hi everyone

Not seen these before...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=714299871

Nick

Hi All,
If you have downloaded APT-E V1.5 before 20th September please
download this patch and add it to your APT-E train directory.

It fixes missing detail to PC2 bogies and addes more detail to the
other bogies.

Regards

Paul

WWW.APT-E.ORG/etrain/etrain.htm

Click above link to be taken to patch file download section.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Paul Leadley" <PAUL@A...>
wrote:

> Hi All,
> Just fixed some more bugs and re-designed the nose cone for E

train.

> Looks a lot better now, also converted the textures for the bogies
> to high res, so they look better too.
>
> See what you think.
>
> http://www.apt-e.org
>
> New download is still about 1 meg.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul.
>
> PS. Anyone fancy having a go at the cab for E train, please

email

> me if you do and I will supply any photographs you might need.
>
> Cheers

Hello,

Are their any plans to re-paint the APT-E at York? If so, when?

Thanks,
Ian

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Hello,
Yes there are plans to return APT-E back to its origional condition.
This will start on PC2 as soon as the support group get the external
damage repaired, with a little luck, that should be done early in
the new year. We have access to the origional paint company so she
should look wonderful when re-painted.

Watch the support group web site for future updates on E trains
restoration.

http://www.apt-e.org

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, NRM, York


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Ian Ellis" <ianellis_68@h...>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Are their any plans to re-paint the APT-E at York? If so, when?
>
> Thanks,
> Ian
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Hi All,
Another very nasty virus is doing the rounds as from the 30th
September. It attacks ANY type of file and ANY network shares.

See url :
http://www.sophos.co.uk/virusinfo/analyses/w32bugbeara.html

Make sure your browser is up to date and you have the latest anti-
virus software running.

If you are using IE5.0 /5.1/5.5 take great heed of this as the virus
has found another way of self executing without ANY interaction from
yourself, once its there, there is no way at the present time to
remove it from your files.

It arrives via email from someone who knows you.

Good look everyone.

Regards

Paul

Hi,

Could anyone tell me when the APT-P at Crewe is open for visitors.

I was thinking of coming up to see it in Oct or Nov.

Thanks

Andrew

Hi everyone

I'll be showing several modern traction BTF films this weekend at the
Barrow Hill Diesel Gala featuring plenty of APT interest.

Please say hello if you plan to attend - I'll be in the archive room. :-)

Nick

--

10:00 Report on Modernisation (1959)
10:20 Second Report on Modernisation (1961)
New services, equipment & techniques, providing a unique pictorial
record of the progress of British Railways.

10:40 The Freightliner Story (1967)
A terminal in action and how the Freightliner has satisfied its
customers needs.

11:00 Discovering Railways (1977)
Peter Purves, of TV's 'Blue Peter' takes us on a rapid tour of railway
activities including the HST, APT, electrification & freight trains.

11:15 Journey - InterCity (1972)
A lively and sometimes evocative account of a mixed bag of passengers
enjoying in their various ways a typical Inter-City journey.

11:25 InterCity 1250 (1982)
A speeded-up four-minute High Speed Train journey from King's Cross to
Peterborough.

11:30 Overture One-Two-Five (1978)
A high speed Inter-City train is the star of this impressionist film in
which picture and specially composed music are brought together.

11:37 Partners In Prosperity (1980)
The plan for an integrated road and rail transport structure in
Scotland, to make it a modern, efficient country.

11:55 Merry-Go-Round (1979)
The development of bulk coal transport by merry-go-round trains.

12:10 Promises, Promises (1982)
Various incidents slow the Class 45 hauled 07.55 from Sheffield to St
Pancras including a class 20 freight "blocking the line".

12:30 Under The Wires (1965)
The electrification of the London Midland Region main line between
London, Manchester and Liverpool at 25KV AC.

13:00 Wires Over The Border (1974)
Electrification of the WCML from Crewe to Glasgow, featuring
pre-electric diesel hauled services, testing and Class 87 construction.

13:20 Points & Aspects (1974)
The re-signalling of the WCML and the intricate production of equipment
and its installation.

13:50 Plumb Loco (1971)
The precision and drama of AC electric and diesel locomotive
manufacture, composed to form a lively pattern in picture and sound.

14:00 E For Experimental (1975)
The development of the experimental Advanced Passenger Train, explaining
some of the many novel design features of the APT-E.

14:20 Round Trip To Glasgow (1982)
TV’s Peter Purves, takes a trip on the APT-P, meeting some of those
responsible for its development and testing.

14:35 Blue Pullman (1960)
Following its pre-service trials, the famed luxury express is put
through its paces between Manchester Central and London St. Pancras.

15:00 The Signal Engineers (1962)
Practical work in signal boxes and by trackside, coupled with design
instruction lead the apprentice into the intricacies of research.

15:30 The Driving Force (1966)
The transition from steam to new forms of motive power, and its effects
on railwaymen and passengers.

15:55 Rail (1967)
A symphony in two movements to commemorate the age of steam and
celebrate the age of electricity that has succeeded it.

16:10 Forward To First Principles (1966)
The present and the past show principles governing the early railways
which were rediscovered as a basis for modern freight trains.

16:40 Train Driver (1965)
Filmed for recruiting school-leavers, this shows preparation and
procedures for the operation of AC electric and diesel locomotives.

16:50 The Third Sam (1962)
A staff instructional film, Sam Smith is taught to rectify faults on an
AC electric locomotive. Features a humorous rhyming narrative.

.... there's an APT about!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=720616595

Nick

Attachments :

Here's another one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=720842278

Bid On!
Andy


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Andy" <AndyAppleton@b...>
wrote:

> Two Miles A Minute - HST & APT Story:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=717524931
>
> Take Care,
> Andy

Attachments :

Andy

Enjoy?????

Why did the NRM move it from Crewe and let it get in
that state. It is a mess. Me only question WHY??? do
that


--- Andy <AndyAppleton@...> wrote:

> Attached is a recent photo of APT-P power car

49006

> at Kineton.
>
> Enjoy!
> Andy
>

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=APT-P

Kineton.jpg


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Hi everyone

Interesting item on Ebay....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=728815944

Nick

From reading various sources on both the APT and HST most
notably 'The Intercity Story' published by OPC and edited by Chris
Green, the main reason for the introduction of the HST seems to be
as a stopgap until extensive electrification could be afforded or
justified. I believe the 225 was another example of insufficient
funds as the mark 4 coaches were designed with a body profile that
enabled tilting but I think that tilt was not introduced either
because of cost or a perceived lack of technical development. The
Intercity Story devotes a few pages to the Intercity 250 which has a
similar profil to the Eurostar - it was mainly designed to be
Intercity's train for the future and only got as far as carriage
mock-ups as far as I'm aware.

Hope this information is of some use.

Regards,
Martin.

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., mbgm8ajs@s... wrote:
> Dear APT Fans,
>
> (I'm still doing my APT case study)
>
> Can anyone tell me anything about the following...?
>
> 1) Why BR decided to introduce the 125 while the APT was in
> development. What was the idea behind it?
>
> In fact - I'd appreciate any help in researching the origins of
the
> 125.
>
> 2) What was the Intercity 250 all about? Not the Pendolino - the
one
> during the 80s that went to mock-up stage according to Virgin
Trains
> press material.
>
> 3) Anyone knwo anything about the current BR coaches on 125/225
being
> converted to tilting? I heard they were "able to be easily
converted"
> somewhere.
>
> 4) And finally - what was the logic behind the 225, which seemed
> based on the APT, but obviously non-tilting.
>
>
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> Alex Stallman

Hi everyone

A "rare' APT leaflet for sale

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=732831255

Nick

Watch out!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=733292826

Nick

Hi everyone

I was privileged to see another APT film in Derby on Friday night.

This was called "Advanced Passenger Train" and is unlisted in any BTF
book or catalogue.

The film is only a few minutes long (5-10) and footage is basically "E
For Experimental" but just features extended scenes of the E Train's
construction - both shell and mechanical componants plus testing of POP
and the E train.

The film is clearly designed to publicise the train to overseas rail
managers as the final words were along the lines of "British Rail would
love to hear from rail managers abroad to discuss export possibilities
of this new rechnology" with the displayed strap line saying something
like (again I forget the exact wording) "advancement in transport
technology"

One for the APT-E pages!

Nick

OT looking for good UK Hobby Stores

Hi all,

I'm going to be in the UK for 2 1/2 weeks over xmas and I'm looking
for a couple (or more) good stores to visit while there. Anyone have
any suggestions? I'll be looking mostly for European N-Scale items
in London, Befordshire, Cambridgeshire and close surrounding areas.

Many thanks for any help

BTW, Rob are you open at anytime from the 13th - 31st of December?

Lee

Can someone please tell me how much each APT-P cost? Also, how much did the
APT-E project cost?

From memory I think BR sold the tilting thing to the Italians? How much did
BR sell it for?

IMHO I think Virgin are paying a lot of money, �11 million, for each
Pendolino when we invented the original idea!

I hope you can answer my questions,
John

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Hi,
The whole APT programme cost around 50 - 60 millions pounts in total.

BR didnt sell the technology but gave it away, as anyone who wanted
to tender for the Class 91 project was given the APT project data
and designes of which GEC used the most. They in turn passed on the
information to other companys during mergers and take overs, what a
waste of a brilliant idea.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, NRM, York

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "John Wood" <jowo_89@h...>
wrote:

> Can someone please tell me how much each APT-P cost? Also, how

much did the

> APT-E project cost?
>
> From memory I think BR sold the tilting thing to the Italians? How

much did

> BR sell it for?
>
> IMHO I think Virgin are paying a lot of money, £11 million, for

each

> Pendolino when we invented the original idea!
>
> I hope you can answer my questions,
> John
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

John,

>From memory I think BR sold the tilting thing to the Italians? How much

did BR sell it for?

Not quite. The APT tilt system is fundamentally different to the Pendelino
system in the way it moves the vehicle body and the geometry of the system
too. The RENFE and FIAT were developing their tilt system at the same time
as we were doing our thing on the APT. It's touch and go who managed it
first, but I believe (I would, wouldn't I....?) we were the first to make a
tilting rail vehicle in Europe, that would be PC3 from the POP Train and
accordingly I claim to be the first tilting person in Europe! <g>

It's likely that the RENFE-FIAT team made the first self-porpelled tilting
vehicle though. I can't remember the type designation, but it was something
like ETR 403. It was a double-cabbed electic single unit railcar and was
used to develop their system into a whole working train.

The APT-P tilt system went via BR Engineering and ABB, as Paul mentioned
and was put into service in the Swedish X2000 train. Now it's come back to
UK in the Virgin Super Voyagers, but not the higher speed Pendelinos, which
are just what they say.

>IMHO I think Virgin are paying a lot of money, £11 million, for each

Pendolino when we invented the original idea!<

Not sure if we 'invented' it as such. There's some evidence that a tilt
body coach was built by Budd in the US in the 30s but it's very difficult
to find out for sure. See above for the Euro story though.

Regards
Kit

The above mentioned book provides an interesting narrative of the
Hornby-Dublo, Triang-Hornby and subsequently just HORNBY eras of model
rail production at Biins Raod and Martgate.

The HORNBY model of the APT-P earns quite a few paragraphs of page
space, but unfortunately the references to the demise of the real life
APT-P are somewhat jaundiced - especially the mention of "...tilting
sickness - which is not all that surprising ..."

Given the in depth research by the authors into other references to live
steam / diesel / electric engines that were modelled, it is a little sad
to see a lack of detail into the APT-P.

Brgds
Dennis Williams
Australia

Must be a rare item!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=745301111

Nick

Nick,

>Subject: Certify yourself<

Nah, got one already with my name on it! <BG>

>Must be a rare item!<

Seriously though, yes it must be. It's the soutbound run version too, the
REAL first passenger carrying run, and everyone got one just after the
train left Glasgow. You had to fill in your own name though......

Changing tack, has anyone noticed that Virgin are starting tilting
Pendelino service from Euston to Manchester on Jan 27th.? I'm trying to
weedle my way on board of course...... <g>

Regards
Kit

Hi everyone

A clutch of goodies...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=747719100

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=747718588

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=747716637

Nick

Hi everyone

Mot seen this one before...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=748316852

Nick

Yes, E train will be re-painted here in York, as for the question of
when, as said before, as soon as the external repairs to PC2 have
been completed, she should see a lick of paint in the first part of
2003.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, NRM, York

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Ellis"
<ianellis_68@h...> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Are their any plans to re-paint the APT-E at York? If so, when?
>
> Thanks,
> Ian
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Advanced-Passenger-Train group:

APT-E or APT-P; which is your favourite?

o APT-E
o APT-P
o What a tough question, I like both of them!


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/surveys?id=1018561

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!