Hi Gerry,

>My acquaintance was accompanied by another man whose ears pricked up when

the subject of >Derby was mentioned. "Did you know Tony Hobbs?", he asked.
It turned out that his wife was the >cousin of Tony Hobbs! The sad part of
it was that he explained the background to Tony's >summary dismissal from
Brecknell-Willis a few years ago, of which I was unaware. However, >Tony is
now doing reasonably well, I was told.<

I didn't know that Tony haqd been dumped by B-W either. He was my Dept Head
when I joined the APD and I swear I got the job I wanted because I had just
come from British Leyland and knew the supension chacracterics of an Austin
1800 like I knew my brother.

Tony at that time had a VERY quick 1800, with lots of Spacial Tuning bits
on it. When I'd finished talking over the suspension with him, it went
round corners like it was super-glued to the road too. <g>

Mind you, the very LAST thing it did was tilt!

Regards
Kit

Attachments :

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Advanced-Passenger-Train group:

Several project for E train have been
put forward over the past few months,
what do you think we should attempt
first?

o Get the horns working.
o Wash the bodywork down with anti-fungal agent.
o Make new air spring covers and pump up the air springs.
o Replace the rotten cab floor in PC2.
o Make vent caps for the exhaust funnels.
o Cover the vestibules with some water proof material.
o Fix lighting in TC1, both VIP and store bays.
o Repair the vent panel which has been removed from PC1.


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Hi Gerry,
My name is Paul Leadley and I started the whole E train conservation
group thing.

To see what work we are doing to her, please visit

HTTP://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/york1

and go to the support group pages.

Im sure Kit would love to meet up again and have a chat, I to would
love to meet you and any who worked on the E train.

Our next workday is on the 13th October starting at 10 am.

If you can make it, please feel free to come along.

Regaurds

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Gerry Bates" <gerry@w...>
wrote:

> Dear All
>
> Can you let me know how I can get involved in work on E-train?
>
> Cheers
>
> Gerry

Paul

I hope to make the 13th. Do I just turn up at the train? How do I find it?

Am I right in thinking that admission to the NRM is free now?

Regards

Gerry

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 03/10/01 at 21:03 Paul Leadley wrote:

>Hi Gerry,
>My name is Paul Leadley and I started the whole E train conservation
>group thing.
>
>To see what work we are doing to her, please visit
>
>HTTP://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/york1
>
>and go to the support group pages.
>
>Im sure Kit would love to meet up again and have a chat, I to would
>love to meet you and any who worked on the E train.
>
>Our next workday is on the 13th October starting at 10 am.
>
>If you can make it, please feel free to come along.
>
>Regaurds
>
>Paul Leadley
>APT-E Conservation & Support Group
>
>

Hi Gerry,
No the NRM isnt free yet!

If you come to the north enterance at 10am, that the one nearest the
car park, I will come and meet you.

Look forward to meeting you, Im sure you would love to see your handy
work in TC2 again, thats a project you could do, the no 1 man for the
job.

He hope to get TC2 so people can walk through it and see what went on
during the trains trails.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Gerry Bates" <gerry@w...>
wrote:

> Paul
>
> I hope to make the 13th. Do I just turn up at the train? How do I

find it?

>
> Am I right in thinking that admission to the NRM is free now?
>
> Regards
>
> Gerry
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 03/10/01 at 21:03 Paul Leadley wrote:
>
> >Hi Gerry,
> >My name is Paul Leadley and I started the whole E train

conservation

> >group thing.
> >
> >To see what work we are doing to her, please visit
> >
> >HTTP://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/york1
> >
> >and go to the support group pages.
> >
> >Im sure Kit would love to meet up again and have a chat, I to

would

> >love to meet you and any who worked on the E train.
> >
> >Our next workday is on the 13th October starting at 10 am.
> >
> >If you can make it, please feel free to come along.
> >
> >Regaurds
> >
> >Paul Leadley
> >APT-E Conservation & Support Group
> >
> >

We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

APT-E Workday at the NRM

Date: Saturday, October 13, 2001
Time: 10:00AM - 4:00PM GMT

APT-E Workday at the NRM.
All support group members welcome.

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerry Bates

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:47 PM

Subject: [APT Group] E-train

Dear All

 

Thanks to Paul Leadley for reintroducing me to E-train and bringing me up-to-date on what's happened to it since it arrived in York, the plans for the future and the role of the support group. It was a very interesting - and sometimes almost emotional! - morning.

 

I took a few pictures and you can find them as follows:

 

www.wilford-bates.co.uk/pictures/APT/E-train.htm

www.wilford-bates.co.uk/pictures/APT/OutsideTC2.htm

www.wilford-bates.co.uk/pictures/APT/InsideTC2.htm

 

Regards

 

Gerry Bates

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

See

http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/midlandsreport/

for details of a Midlands Report to be broadcast on BBC2 in the Midlands
only on Thursday 18 October.

I for one won't see it as Crewe is too far North !

Rob

Hello Rob and all members

Adam Turner here. We now have all our APT and Crewe Heritage Railway Centre
pictures on the net.

If you would like to see them just follow this link,

www.angelfire.com/mac/BRtrains/APT.html

or see my own web site, The Modern London Underground,

www.angelfire.com/extreme/transport

Regards,

Adam Turner

Birmingham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Latham" <rob@...>
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:44 AM
Subject: [APT Group] APT on BBC TV - but only in the Midlands !


> See
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/midlandsreport/
>
> for details of a Midlands Report to be broadcast on BBC2 in the Midlands
> only on Thursday 18 October.
>
> I for one won't see it as Crewe is too far North !
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

See joke taken from last nights TV programme

http://www.apt-p.com/Movies/SausageRollJoke.rm

Rob

>See joke taken from last nights TV programme

>http://www.apt-p.com/Movies/SausageRollJoke.rm<

Just shows how much the waiter knows about tilt systems...............

Regards
Kit

Attachments :

Has anyone else other than me ordered a Dapol Virgin Pendolino?

I was wondering if a page on the APT website could include a photo or an
article on the APT model to the Pendolino model.
Possibly amongst the many photos of APT models a photo of the Dapol Virgin
Pendolino model/next to an APT model.
Has anyone got any ideas Pendolino related?

The photo attached is from the Dapol website: http://www.dapol.co.uk

cr3000@...
http://www.cr3ky.cjb.net





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

Attachments :

Hi there,
is anyone making any progress with TrainSim ? - I'm still
stuck as how to make HIGH RES control overlays for my CabView - have done a
640x480 version that fully works - but can't get the high res one working
??!

What do you think of the attached as a Repainted ACELA ??


Rob

Calum,

I pre-ordered a Pendilino from a UK based mail order company a few months
ago. It was actually delivered last Friday (October 26) all the way
'down-under', so the November release dates in the railway press are a
complete mystery to me.

The model is superbly finished and well detailed. On running though, it is
a little disappointing. The x3 pole motor, flywheel and prop-shaft system
is quite noisy, although final judgement should await a longer run in
period.

The combination of current pick-ups for headlight running on both the power
unit and DVT combined with a bogie system that utilises in-board suspension
rather than out-board needle point axles seems to limit the 'top speed' of
the unit. This was not a subjective result, as I had a HORNBY Eurostar on
hand to compare it with as well as a HORNBY APT-P, both of which achieve
scale high speed operation when 'all dials are set to max."

The Dapol tilting mechanism uses a suspended counterweight approach as
opposed to the cam-tilt arrangement on the HORNBY APT-P. The results are
more realistic at speed, but less pronounced at lower speeds, and sometimes
non-existent at halt on a curved section. This latter result I believe to
be a result of the extended carriage length - 310mm compared to 280mm for
the Eurostar and 270mm for the APT-P. The advice in the instruction leaflet
not to run the unit at speed on less than radius-3 track is valid (after all
it is trying to model a HST !)

With regard to adding the Pendilino to the APT pages, this may be a real can
of worms, as you might need to then consider adding all the 'other' tilting
trains, such as:-

Original Pendilino (Italy)
ICE-T (Germany)
SJ-2000 (Sweden)
TGV - Atlantique Tilting (France)

And just for good measure the North Queensland Tourist Train (Australia) !!!

Given that the web site has just needed to move due lack of server space,
additional MB of graphic may not be viable, but I will of course leave those
decisions to the webmaster of the site.

Regards
Dennis Williams
Australia


-----Original Message-----
From: Calum Ryan [mailto:cr3000@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:08
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [APT Group] Virgin Pendolino

<< File: d390-1.jpg >> Has anyone else other than me ordered a Dapol Virgin
Pendolino?

I was wondering if a page on the APT website could include a photo or an
article on the APT model to the Pendolino model.
Possibly amongst the many photos of APT models a photo of the Dapol Virgin
Pendolino model/next to an APT model.
Has anyone got any ideas Pendolino related?

The photo attached is from the Dapol website: http://www.dapol.co.uk

cr3000@...
http://www.cr3ky.cjb.net





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi all!

I was reading messages in the rail3d group (as mensioned on rob's apt
page..) and there is a nice new feature being made:

<marquee>tilting!</marquee>

see this link for the apt tilting:

http://www.geocities.com/stevenmosbycouk/APT.gif

Picture is copyright, Alan Perryman

however, along come back troubles...

André de costa (a friend of mine) has noticed the below: read on!

----

i think the maximum tilting angle is too exagerated...
it seems a train is almost derailing..in fact, some trains when
tilting in
maximum degrees, touch (and overlap) the ground/track...

here's 3 Gifs..for techincal information why the tilting is
exagerated:

1- the maximum degrees a Pendolino (Fiat Tilting Train), can describe
over
a curve is 8º (no matter the curve's degrees/inclination)..
In the example showed, a Pendolino is at 150 km/h, over a 500 m of
radius
bend curve with a 6º degrees..

and if we add the 6º+8º we get 14º (lol)

well, i've taked a screenshot of my Alfa Pendular (is a Pendolino
train),
when it was in a maximum tilting..and i've noted the max degrees over
a
curve (with no inclination of course) have about 20º (+/-)..

2- the second is that in all electric tilting trains, the pantographs,
don't tilt with the body (or it won't touch the catenary)..
i'm making my Alfa Pendular train in that way, because it's on
reality)

i don't know in Rail3D if the degrees of the tilt is proportional to
the
curve's length and/or radius...

anyway, i must give my congratulations to MRG for this tilting
feature...
it's amazing when we see a very smoth tilting in the trains..very
nice..

even MSTS don't have that..hehe

keep going..:) nice progress..

hope you can understand my words..

André D. Costa

------

so another problem! the pantograph won't touch the line!

I'll update more info tomorrow :)

Steve Mosby

Dennis

In other words . . . completely realistic!

It *should* be less pronounced at lower speeds, and non-existent at halt on a curved section. If there is tilt evident when the train is stopped then there is a tilt pack fault. It should even stand upright when stopped on canted track. Ask Kit!

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 29/10/01 at 11:09 hornby.trains@... wrote:

>Calum,
>
> . . . The Dapol tilting mechanism uses a suspended counterweight approach as
>opposed to the cam-tilt arrangement on the HORNBY APT-P. The results are
>more realistic at speed, but less pronounced at lower speeds, and sometimes
>non-existent at halt on a curved section . . .
>
>
>Regards
>Dennis Williams
>Australia

Hi all,
the new APT-P.COM website, will include some video and
pictures of the Virgin Pendolino trains, I already have taken several
of Virgin Pioneer passing the APT-P here at Crewe.

I'm still not sure when the new site will be launched, but if you
want to send me any pictures of the Dapol Model alongside a Hornby
APT-P I'll include them as well.

Best Wishes


Rob

Gerry,

Thanks for the update on the nuances of 'real-world' tilt operation. I
guess I've spent too much time observing the Hornby model rather than real
world physics !!

I cannot verify whether a tilt is evident with the model on cant track, as
my 'test track' at present lacks easements and super-elevation. No doubt
the model rail press will reveal all shortly. I then trust that the
Pendilino model will soon 'loosen' up after running in, as the top speed
(and hence tilt simulation) are thereby limited at present.


Dennis WIlliams



-----Original Message-----
From: Gerry Bates [mailto:gerry@...]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:03
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com;
Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [APT Group] Virgin Pendolino

Dennis

In other words . . . completely realistic!

It *should* be less pronounced at lower speeds, and non-existent at halt on
a curved section. If there is tilt evident when the train is stopped then
there is a tilt pack fault. It should even stand upright when stopped on
canted track. Ask Kit!

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 29/10/01 at 11:09 hornby.trains@... wrote:

>Calum,
>
> . . . The Dapol tilting mechanism uses a suspended counterweight approach
as
>opposed to the cam-tilt arrangement on the HORNBY APT-P. The results are
>more realistic at speed, but less pronounced at lower speeds, and sometimes
>non-existent at halt on a curved section . . .
>
>
>Regards
>Dennis Williams
>Australia






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Since the last message re:railway3d now tilting trains, the following
has come to my mailbox:

André de costa has now edited the stock codes so that the pantagraph
does NOT tilt when the train does, however it still has a habit of a
35* angle on curves! (hmm... that'd be comfortable for you and your
coffee...!)

---

I also read the below somewhere. (forgot!)

"The Class 91 was originaly consived as a tilting loco for the WCML &
the MK4 coach as a tilting coach. The service was meant to be called
Elecra services. After the flop of the APT, it became a non-tilting
train & after BR cancelled orders for the 91,it became a ECML Loco &
still runs as a GNER loco."

Sounds nice, but wasn't the class 91 introduced in 1988? Any idea
when the train began testing and planning took place? (BREL Crewe)

thanks,

Steven

You might be interested to hear that the Class 91 locomotive has a cabinet labelled "Tilt Pack" - it's empty, of course. The latest refurb makes use of this space, I believe. Perhaps the cancellation of orders for Class 91 was a confusion with cancellation of orders for Class 89 or maybe refers to the bid for Class 91 and Mk4s for the WCML, just before privatisation.

Regards

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 29/10/01 at 10:25 steven.mosby@... wrote:

>Since the last message re:railway3d now tilting trains, the following
>has come to my mailbox:
>
>André de costa has now edited the stock codes so that the pantagraph
>does NOT tilt when the train does, however it still has a habit of a
>35* angle on curves! (hmm... that'd be comfortable for you and your
>coffee...!)
>
>---
>
>I also read the below somewhere. (forgot!)
>
>"The Class 91 was originaly consived as a tilting loco for the WCML &
>the MK4 coach as a tilting coach. The service was meant to be called
>Elecra services. After the flop of the APT, it became a non-tilting
>train & after BR cancelled orders for the 91,it became a ECML Loco &
>still runs as a GNER loco."
>
>Sounds nice, but wasn't the class 91 introduced in 1988? Any idea
>when the train began testing and planning took place? (BREL Crewe)
>
>thanks,
>
>Steven
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

yeah, i heard rumours about it was going to be originally a 2nd attempt at tilting, but it didn't work.

The trains then left for the ECML, where GNER now runs and owns them. Pity.

Steven :)

>
> From: "Gerry Bates" <gerry@...>
> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:13:47 +0000
> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [APT Group] Re: Railway 3d - now tilting apt!!!
>
> You might be interested to hear that the Class 91 locomotive has a cabinet labelled "Tilt Pack" - it's empty, of course. The latest refurb makes use of this space, I believe. Perhaps the cancellation of orders for Class 91 was a confusion with cancellation of orders for Class 89 or maybe refers to the bid for Class 91 and Mk4s for the WCML, just before privatisation.
>
> Regards
>
> Gerry Bates
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 29/10/01 at 10:25 steven.mosby@... wrote:
>
> >Since the last message re:railway3d now tilting trains, the following
> >has come to my mailbox:
> >
> >André de costa has now edited the stock codes so that the pantagraph
> >does NOT tilt when the train does, however it still has a habit of a
> >35* angle on curves! (hmm... that'd be comfortable for you and your
> >coffee...!)
> >
> >---
> >
> >I also read the below somewhere. (forgot!)
> >
> >"The Class 91 was originaly consived as a tilting loco for the WCML &
> >the MK4 coach as a tilting coach. The service was meant to be called
> >Elecra services. After the flop of the APT, it became a non-tilting
> >train & after BR cancelled orders for the 91,it became a ECML Loco &
> >still runs as a GNER loco."
> >
> >Sounds nice, but wasn't the class 91 introduced in 1988? Any idea
> >when the train began testing and planning took place? (BREL Crewe)
> >
> >thanks,
> >
> >Steven
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I forgot to mention that the profile of the Mk4s was chosen to make them suitable for tilting. It wasn't that tilt didn't work - the idea was just abandoned. By then the APT-P tilt system had been well developed and there would have been little risk in adopting it.

Regards

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 29/10/01 at 13:07 steven.mosby@... wrote:

>yeah, i heard rumours about it was going to be originally a 2nd attempt
>at tilting, but it didn't work.
>
>The trains then left for the ECML, where GNER now runs and owns them. Pity.
>
>Steven :)
>>
>> From: "Gerry Bates" <gerry@...>
>> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:13:47 +0000
>> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [APT Group] Re: Railway 3d - now tilting apt!!!
>>
>> You might be interested to hear that the Class 91 locomotive has a
>cabinet labelled "Tilt Pack" - it's empty, of course. The latest refurb
>makes use of this space, I believe. Perhaps the cancellation of orders for
>Class 91 was a confusion with cancellation of orders for Class 89 or maybe
>refers to the bid for Class 91 and Mk4s for the WCML, just before
>privatisation.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Gerry Bates
>>
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>
>> On 29/10/01 at 10:25 steven.mosby@... wrote:
>>
>> >Since the last message re:railway3d now tilting trains, the following
>> >has come to my mailbox:
>> >
>> >André de costa has now edited the stock codes so that the pantagraph
>> >does NOT tilt when the train does, however it still has a habit of a
>> >35* angle on curves! (hmm... that'd be comfortable for you and your
>> >coffee...!)
>> >
>> >---
>> >
>> >I also read the below somewhere. (forgot!)
>> >
>> >"The Class 91 was originaly consived as a tilting loco for the WCML &
>> >the MK4 coach as a tilting coach. The service was meant to be called
>> >Elecra services. After the flop of the APT, it became a non-tilting
>> >train & after BR cancelled orders for the 91,it became a ECML Loco &
>> >still runs as a GNER loco."
>> >
>> >Sounds nice, but wasn't the class 91 introduced in 1988? Any idea
>> >when the train began testing and planning took place? (BREL Crewe)
>> >
>> >thanks,
>> >
>> >Steven
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The class 91 and Mk4 coaches were designed as a cut down replacement
of the APT trains. The ECML doesnt really need to tilt but the first
and seconds sets of drawings for Class 91 were pretty much based on
an APT powercar. It was also designed into the MK4 coaches just in
case tilting was need in the future, IE higher speed running, 140+ on
the ECML. As a sideline, the Class 91 was tested most of the time
on the ECML between York - Peterborough, I saw the first test run at
Appleton Roebuck just outside York.

The SIG bogies on the MK4 coaches are, and have always given a rough
ride, why they choose them, anyones guess, BR had a developed bogie
just about ready to roll then the MK4 came out, what a waste.

Regards

Paul

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Gerry Bates" <gerry@w...>
wrote:

> I forgot to mention that the profile of the Mk4s was chosen to make

them suitable for tilting. It wasn't that tilt didn't work - the idea
was just abandoned. By then the APT-P tilt system had been well
developed and there would have been little risk in adopting it.

>
> Regards
>
> Gerry Bates
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 29/10/01 at 13:07 steven.mosby@n... wrote:
>
> >yeah, i heard rumours about it was going to be originally a 2nd

attempt

> >at tilting, but it didn't work.
> >
> >The trains then left for the ECML, where GNER now runs and owns

them. Pity.

> >
> >Steven :)
> >>
> >> From: "Gerry Bates" <gerry@w...>
> >> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:13:47 +0000
> >> To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@y...
> >> Subject: Re: [APT Group] Re: Railway 3d - now tilting apt!!!
> >>
> >> You might be interested to hear that the Class 91 locomotive has

a

> >cabinet labelled "Tilt Pack" - it's empty, of course. The latest

refurb

> >makes use of this space, I believe. Perhaps the cancellation of

orders for

> >Class 91 was a confusion with cancellation of orders for Class 89

or maybe

> >refers to the bid for Class 91 and Mk4s for the WCML, just before
> >privatisation.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Gerry Bates
> >>
> >> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
> >>
> >> On 29/10/01 at 10:25 steven.mosby@n... wrote:
> >>
> >> >Since the last message re:railway3d now tilting trains, the

following

> >> >has come to my mailbox:
> >> >
> >> >André de costa has now edited the stock codes so that the

pantagraph

> >> >does NOT tilt when the train does, however it still has a habit

of a

> >> >35* angle on curves! (hmm... that'd be comfortable for you and

your

> >> >coffee...!)
> >> >
> >> >---
> >> >
> >> >I also read the below somewhere. (forgot!)
> >> >
> >> >"The Class 91 was originaly consived as a tilting loco for the

WCML &

> >> >the MK4 coach as a tilting coach. The service was meant to be

called

> >> >Elecra services. After the flop of the APT, it became a non-

tilting

> >> >train & after BR cancelled orders for the 91,it became a ECML

Loco &

> >> >still runs as a GNER loco."
> >> >
> >> >Sounds nice, but wasn't the class 91 introduced in 1988? Any

idea

> >> >when the train began testing and planning took place? (BREL

Crewe)

> >> >
> >> >thanks,
> >> >
> >> >Steven
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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They should have thought more about past bad experience when Swiss bogies were used on BR trains! I refer, of course, to the Midland and Western Pullmans which had rough riding Schlieren bogies. I thought at the time that the switch from BREL to SIG bogies for the Mk4s had a bit of a 'whiff' about it!

Regards

Gerry

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 29/10/01 at 15:40 Paul Leadley wrote:

>The class 91 and Mk4 coaches were designed as a cut down replacement
>of the APT trains. The ECML doesnt really need to tilt but the first
>and seconds sets of drawings for Class 91 were pretty much based on
>an APT powercar. It was also designed into the MK4 coaches just in
>case tilting was need in the future, IE higher speed running, 140+ on
>the ECML. As a sideline, the Class 91 was tested most of the time
>on the ECML between York - Peterborough, I saw the first test run at
>Appleton Roebuck just outside York.
>
>The SIG bogies on the MK4 coaches are, and have always given a rough
>ride, why they choose them, anyones guess, BR had a developed bogie
>just about ready to roll then the MK4 came out, what a waste.
>
>Regards
>
>Paul
>

Gerry and Dennis,

>It *should* be less pronounced at lower speeds, and non-existent at halt

on a curved section. If >there is tilt evident when the train is stopped
then there is a tilt pack fault. It should even stand >upright when stopped
on canted track. Ask Kit!<

Dead right! As the amount of tilt is determined by the amount of lateral
acceleration, it follows that if there is no lateral accel. there ain't no
tilt either. If the train is standing still on canted track the tilt system
will respond by tilting the vehicle in the WRONG direction till the lateral
accel. becomes zero. In this case when the vehicle floor is level with the
'real world'.

When E-Train was testing on the Midland Main line we'd have great fun by
stopping at Wellingborough (I think...) which is on quite a sharp curve
with the track canted for 60 mph or so. Normal trains would stop at the
platform leaning toward the passengers, and of course E-Train stopped with
the whole train level. Not only were the Joe (and Jane..) Publics knocked
out by the train itself but they couldn't figure out why it was standing
upright.

Of course we could always restore the visuals to 'normal' by means of the
manual tilt control! Trevor Easton once tilted each alternate vehicle full
left and full right while waiting in the center road at Bedford, much to
the Inspector's chagrin and everyone else's mirth. <g>

Regards
Kit

Kit,

Your mail got my curiosity going, so I rigged a small temporary test track
with canted curves. I can report that the Pendilino model behaved exactly
as your mail indicated it should ie. at rest on the canted curve, the car
floor attempted to assume a level with real world position.

As for attempting to model the E Train with each alternate vehicle full
tilted
left and full right, that could be fun too. Offsetting the cabin floor
counter weights should do the trick, but I suspect will have disastrous
effects on return to running operation !


Regards
Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Kit Spackman [mailto:101453.3657@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:07
To: INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [APT Group] Anti-tilt?

Gerry and Dennis,

>It *should* be less pronounced at lower speeds, and non-existent at halt

on a curved section. If >there is tilt evident when the train is stopped
then there is a tilt pack fault. It should even stand >upright when stopped
on canted track. Ask Kit!<

Dead right! As the amount of tilt is determined by the amount of lateral
acceleration, it follows that if there is no lateral accel. there ain't no
tilt either. If the train is standing still on canted track the tilt system
will respond by tilting the vehicle in the WRONG direction till the lateral
accel. becomes zero. In this case when the vehicle floor is level with the
'real world'.

When E-Train was testing on the Midland Main line we'd have great fun by
stopping at Wellingborough (I think...) which is on quite a sharp curve
with the track canted for 60 mph or so. Normal trains would stop at the
platform leaning toward the passengers, and of course E-Train stopped with
the whole train level. Not only were the Joe (and Jane..) Publics knocked
out by the train itself but they couldn't figure out why it was standing
upright.

Of course we could always restore the visuals to 'normal' by means of the
manual tilt control! Trevor Easton once tilted each alternate vehicle full
left and full right while waiting in the center road at Bedford, much to
the Inspector's chagrin and everyone else's mirth. <g>

Regards
Kit




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi All,
The BBC have promised to send me several copies of the Midlands
Report programme which featured myself and Kit at the NRM.

They should arrive in the next few days so heres hoping.

Kit, one of the copies they are sending me is for you, I will give it
to you if you make it to the next workday, Richard still has some
cash for you too.

Once we have seen the programme, the producer whats me and Kit to let
her know what we think of it, should be interesting!

Regards

Paul

Hi Dennis,

>Your mail got my curiosity going, so I rigged a small temporary test track

with canted curves. I >can report that the Pendilino model behaved exactly
as your mail indicated it should ie. at rest on >the canted curve, the car
floor attempted to assume a level with real world position.<

That's excellent, the Hornby APT-P didn't do that of course, as it's tilt
angle was determined by the sharpness of the curve it was traversing. That
resulted in some silly looking trains threading their way through P&C work
at low speeds! The Pendelino model sounds quite good, I'd like to take a
look at one some day. Of course, as they work as a REAL pendelum they won't
have the tilt response of an APT or even a real Pendelino of course, but I
doubt there's an OO scale Kit on board each one measuring the cant
defficiency <g>

>As for attempting to model the E Train with each alternate vehicle full

tilted left and full right, that >could be fun too. Offsetting the cabin
floor counter weights should do the trick, but I suspect will >have
disastrous effects on return to running operation !<

You need servo controlled movable counter weight I reckon. Hydraulic
actuators would serve to move it nicely as well. All you'll need is a 1/76
scale 3000 psi 7 gpm pump, two 15 gpm servo valves and a two channel full
duplex control system. Not to mention a fair sized generator to run it all.


Hmmmm, I think your model, room could get a bit crowded..... <BG>

Paul,

That's great news about the video, thanks. Is the next work day the 17th?
If so I think I can make that! They want us to let them know what they
think about the prog? They MUST be gluttons for punishment..


Regards
Kit

Some of you in the North-West news region may have noticed a short clip of
the Virgin Pendolino on test at Old Dalby. It may not be till the next
decade (2010) that we see a train tilting again on the West Coast Main Line.
This is due to Railtrack I believe though I think Virgin will still use the
Pendolino but not tilting. I had quite looked forwards to a journey to
London Euston from Crewe here in only 1 hour or there abouts.
A compensation may now be given to Virgin Trains after having spent about
£750m upgrading their rolling stock. Who knows what kind of rolling stock we
would have today if privatisation hadn't happened.

Calum Ryan
mailto:cr3000@...
http://www.cr3ky.cjb.net





_______________________________________________________
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Calum,

If the report comes true, then the Pendilino model will indeed share a
little in common with the Hornby APT-P model - ie a model train that did not
materialise into regular service !

Regards
Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Calum Ryan [mailto:cr3000@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:03
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [APT Group] Pendolino bad news

Some of you in the North-West news region may have noticed a short clip of
the Virgin Pendolino on test at Old Dalby. It may not be till the next
decade (2010) that we see a train tilting again on the West Coast Main Line.
This is due to Railtrack I believe though I think Virgin will still use the
Pendolino but not tilting. I had quite looked forwards to a journey to
London Euston from Crewe here in only 1 hour or there abouts.
A compensation may now be given to Virgin Trains after having spent about
£750m upgrading their rolling stock. Who knows what kind of rolling stock we
would have today if privatisation hadn't happened.

Calum Ryan
mailto:cr3000@...
http://www.cr3ky.cjb.net





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/





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Two-hour London rail link in doubt

PLANS to create a high-speed train service linking Manchester and London in less than two hours are in tatters today. Railtrack has admitted it cannot afford almost £7bn it would now cost to upgrade the line for 140mph tilting trains to be introduced by operators Richard Branson's Virgin. Costs have more than tripled since plans were first laid, and now the second phase of the West Coast Main Line upgrade - due to be finished by 2005 - has been put back ''indefinitely''. Instead, Railtrack - forced into administration by the government earlier this month - will press ahead with other improvements to allow speeds of up to 125mph. Railtrack will also have to pay out massive compensation to Virgin. The two sides signed a contract in 1998 for the phase I and II upgrades - then valued at £2.1bn - but neither side would today confirm reports of a £300m damages package, probably to be paid through reduced track access charges. No target date Cost-cutting measures to shave at least £2bn from the bill, probably though savings on signals, mean there is now no target date for the phase II 140mph service and the rest of the improvements have also been delayed. As reported in the Manchester Evening News, the new trains are due to start being introduced in June next year running at 110mph - the fastest speed at the moment - in time for the Commonwealth Games. Phase one improvements were to have introduced 125mph running by next October but that has now been put back to May 2003. Then, Manchester will get two trains an hour to London which will take two hours and five minutes. The journey time will drop to two hours by September 2004. And although Virgin's Pendolino trains will not be able to travel at 140mph in 2005, the operator has managed to hold Railtrack to its agreement to provide 11 slots an hour out of Euston - giving Manchester three trains an hour to the capital. Rising costs ''Railtrack came to us in July expressing concern about the rising cost of phase II of the project which involves cutting the journey times to less than two hours by running trains at up to 140mph,'' said a Virgin spokesman. ''At Railtrack's request we had a series of meetings in which we looked at ways of economising and we found ways of saving more than £2bn. ''What this means is instead of the trains reaching 125mph and completing the Manchester to London journey in two hours by October 2002, it will be May 2003 instead. ''As far as phase II of the project goes and reaching speeds of up to 140mph we don't know at the moment when that will be achievable but we want to stress that we are still looking at deferring this and not abandoning it.''

There is a 1/2 hour program on YTV today called "Railtrack or
Failtrack?"

I'll see what that has to say, apparently live with Richard Branson
and some Railtrack people.

Steven

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:

> Two-hour London rail link in doubt
>
>
> PLANS to create a high-speed train service linking Manchester

and London in less than two hours are in tatters today.

> Railtrack has admitted it cannot afford almost £7bn it would

now cost to upgrade the line for 140mph tilting trains to be
introduced by operators Richard Branson's Virgin.

>
> Costs have more than tripled since plans were first laid, and

now the second phase of the West Coast Main Line upgrade - due to be
finished by 2005 - has been put back ''indefinitely''.

>
> Instead, Railtrack - forced into administration by the

government earlier this month - will press ahead with other
improvements to allow speeds of up to 125mph. Railtrack will also
have to pay out massive compensation to Virgin.

>
> The two sides signed a contract in 1998 for the phase I and

II upgrades - then valued at £2.1bn - but neither side would today
confirm reports of a £300m damages package, probably to be paid
through reduced track access charges.

>
> No target date
>
> Cost-cutting measures to shave at least £2bn from the bill,

probably though savings on signals, mean there is now no target date
for the phase II 140mph service and the rest of the improvements have
also been delayed.

>
> As reported in the Manchester Evening News, the new trains

are due to start being introduced in June next year running at
110mph - the fastest speed at the moment - in time for the
Commonwealth Games.

>
> Phase one improvements were to have introduced 125mph running

by next October but that has now been put back to May 2003.

>
> Then, Manchester will get two trains an hour to London which

will take two hours and five minutes. The journey time will drop to
two hours by September 2004.

>
> And although Virgin's Pendolino trains will not be able to

travel at 140mph in 2005, the operator has managed to hold Railtrack
to its agreement to provide 11 slots an hour out of Euston - giving
Manchester three trains an hour to the capital.

>
> Rising costs
>
> ''Railtrack came to us in July expressing concern about the

rising cost of phase II of the project which involves cutting the
journey times to less than two hours by running trains at up to
140mph,'' said a Virgin spokesman.

>
> ''At Railtrack's request we had a series of meetings in which

we looked at ways of economising and we found ways of saving more
than £2bn.

>
> ''What this means is instead of the trains reaching 125mph

and completing the Manchester to London journey in two hours by
October 2002, it will be May 2003 instead.

>
> ''As far as phase II of the project goes and reaching speeds

of up to 140mph we don't know at the moment when that will be
achievable but we want to stress that we are still looking at
deferring this and not abandoning it.''

The first tilting train in Britain since the APT could actually be the
Virgin XC Super Voyager. The Super Voyager will have a maximum speed of
125mph. Its design is exactly the same as the Virgin Voyager except for its
tilt-system. Although some units will be used on the West Coast Mainline,
many will operate on Virgin Trains' Cross Country routes where 'tilting' may
be used.

Calum Ryan
www.cr3ky.cjb.net





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

Hi Kit,

Your last mail again got me thinking, but this time it took a little longer
to fill in the detail.

Of course, as they work as a REAL pendelum they won't
have the tilt response of an APT or even a real Pendelino of course, but I
doubt there's an OO scale Kit on board each one measuring the cant
deficiency <g>

You need servo controlled movable counter weight I reckon. Hydraulic
actuators would serve to move it nicely as well. All you'll need is a 1/76
scale 3000 psi 7 gpm pump, two 15 gpm servo valves and a two channel full
duplex control system. Not to mention a fair sized generator to run it all.

Hmmmm, I think your model, room could get a bit crowded..... <BG>


I agree that a OO scale sized Kit will be a tall order. But perhaps we
could get an inferred measure of lateral acceleration via liquid in a small
capillary 'U' tube i.e.. At rest, the level of liquid in the U tube would
be even across both legs as it would be at speed on a straight track
section. Upon entering a curved section, the liquid level would fall on the
inner leg / rise on the outer leg in proportion to the (small) lateral 'g'
force. A quick & dirty approach would be to use mercury and then have
make/break contact wires within the tube to initiate electrical contact -
this needs a bit of refinement.

As for the servo controlled counter weight, a flywheel sector weight, driven
through a scale size reduction gearbox could be mounted to the car floor and
driven clockwise or counter clockwise in response to signals from the U
tube.

Now for the detail.......

Regards
Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Kit Spackman [mailto:101453.3657@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:29
To: INTERNET:Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [APT Group] Tilting and videos

Hi Dennis,

>Your mail got my curiosity going, so I rigged a small temporary test track

with canted curves. I >can report that the Pendilino model behaved exactly
as your mail indicated it should ie. at rest on >the canted curve, the car
floor attempted to assume a level with real world position.<

That's excellent, the Hornby APT-P didn't do that of course, as it's tilt
angle was determined by the sharpness of the curve it was traversing. That
resulted in some silly looking trains threading their way through P&C work
at low speeds! The Pendelino model sounds quite good, I'd like to take a
look at one some day. Of course, as they work as a REAL pendelum they won't
have the tilt response of an APT or even a real Pendelino of course, but I
doubt there's an OO scale Kit on board each one measuring the cant
defficiency <g>

>As for attempting to model the E Train with each alternate vehicle full

tilted left and full right, that >could be fun too. Offsetting the cabin
floor counter weights should do the trick, but I suspect will >have
disastrous effects on return to running operation !<

You need servo controlled movable counter weight I reckon. Hydraulic
actuators would serve to move it nicely as well. All you'll need is a 1/76
scale 3000 psi 7 gpm pump, two 15 gpm servo valves and a two channel full
duplex control system. Not to mention a fair sized generator to run it all.


Hmmmm, I think your model, room could get a bit crowded..... <BG>

Paul,

That's great news about the video, thanks. Is the next work day the 17th?
If so I think I can make that! They want us to let them know what they
think about the prog? They MUST be gluttons for punishment..


Regards
Kit





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Hi Dennis,

Your description of the 'U' tube tilt sensor is EXACTLY how the monitor
acclerometer on E-Train, and the early P-Train system worked!

The two main accels. on the E-Train, one in the roof and one under the
floor (doubled up later in the programme) were all very high tech and
expensive feedback type units. That was because they had to be very precise
and accurate, but the monitor accel. didn't need to be THAT accurate, it
just needed to know if there was some lateral eccelaration taking place
that didn't ought to. It just HAD to work under all circumstances though,
so a relatively crude spirit level type device was chosen which measured
the tilt angle by using the resistance of the length of the bubble in the
spirit level bit.

They worked remarkably well, and P-Train even ran with a whole set of them
at one stage, using them as the main accels. I don't know if they continued
with that idea though.

Ah nostalgia, it's not what it was....

Regards
Kit

Hi everyone

How's the APT sims coming along?

The Metrovick Co-Bo "Condor" sim is coming along quite well! ;-)

http://www.wheaty.co.uk/D5705/sim/condor_MS_Sim.jpg

The guy who is doing the work on this, Steve Watrman in Brisbane,
Australia, needs a couple of extra frills to enhance the loco details.

He still needs some references for both the loco's engine noise and horn
sounds. Can anyone help with this please? Metrovick Co-Bo sound
recordings are rare to say the least, but perhaps someone can advise
whether or not something else more available sounded 'similar' and can
be used. Steve will use Class 47 noises if all else fails but it's
hardly a satisfactory replacement!

Can anyone help with this, even if it is only a suggestion of a best
alternative to avoid a "ssssPOON!" horn FX!

Steve will be sending me details of the work involved in due course and
how he has gone about it for others to learn and to generate information
for himself...

> I will take some nice shots and provide details for you of the work
> involved including 3dstudio max wire frame view ect.(its been a long
> struggle but she is nearly ready) since the pic i sent you she now has
> see through windows, working couplings, working lights, both exhausts
> smoking ok and the objects on the roof are finished all i have to do
> is skin her ( put the paint work it the correct places )

Any gen gratefully received.

Nick Wheat
Co-Bo World
http://travel.to/coboworld

> They worked remarkably well, and P-Train even ran with a whole set

of them

> at one stage, using them as the main accels. I don't know if they

continued

> with that idea though.

Kit, - what do you mean by 'at one stage' as far as I am aware they
were the only form of accelerometers used on the P Train ??? - it
still has them now !

Rob

Hi Rob,

>Kit, - what do you mean by 'at one stage' as far as I am aware they were

the only form of >accelerometers used on the P Train ??? - it still has
them now !<

But I didn't know that.....

When the Greater BR decided that it didn't need the E-Train Development
Team we lost contact with the P-Train programme pretty quickly. Luckily I
was re- involved with it when the CM&EE found out they had zero hydraulics
knowledge at that stage, but of course as their skills grew, so my
involvement lessened. For all I know they might have started using conkers
on strings for accels. but it seems not. Glad that something of E-Train
lived on in P-Train.

-----------------------

Hi Nick,

>He still needs some references for both the loco's engine noise and horn

sounds. Can anyone >help with this please? Metrovick Co-Bo sound recordings
are rare to say the least, but perhaps >someone can advise whether or not
something else more available sounded 'similar' and can

>be used.<

The last Co-Bo, the one that was in the RTC Yard at the same time that
E-Train was running, still exists in running condition. I think it's at
Bury, along with 832 Onslaught, the Warship that it shared siding space
with. It ought to be reasonably possible to get recordings of it's sounds
I'd have thought.

I doubt a 47 track would give the right effect as the Co-Bo had a 2 stroke
engine. Something more American might work better, but it would need to be
non-turbo'd. Maybe an SD-28?

Of course what it will need is a HUGE cloud of smoke when it starts <g>

Regards
Kit

On 07/11/01 at 13:05 Kit Spackman wrote:

>The last Co-Bo, the one that was in the RTC Yard at the same time that
>E-Train was running, still exists in running condition.

I probably have a photo -somewhere! - of them together.

I understand that it's undergoing long-term restoration - I doubt that it will run at the moment.

I had a connection with this particular Co-Bo. Before I became a 'reluctant' Instrumentation Engineer and began my acquaintance with E-train I was working on a project to improve wheel/rail adhesion - get rid of the leaf problem, for instance - by blasting a very high temperature flame, called a plasma, at the rail. (If we stood still with the plasma torches running we bored neat holes in the rail head!) The Co-Bo was used to measure adhesion by arranging for one axle to be motored whilst the other four had the brakes applied. Power was increased until the powered wheels slipped, the current at the moment of slipping enabling a calculation of adhesion value.

The project was chopped and I was told to be an Instrumentation Engineer!

>
>I doubt a 47 track would give the right effect as the Co-Bo had a 2 stroke
>engine. Something more American might work better, but it would need to be
>non-turbo'd. Maybe an SD-28?

Wasn't there a BT Film about the 'Condor' (containers door-to-door) which usually ran with a pair of Co-Bos? Sound of two is better than none!

>
>Of course what it will need is a HUGE cloud of smoke when it starts.

And he means HHUUGGEE!!!

>
>Regards
>Kit
>

Hi everyone

Gerry Bates wrote:

> I understand that it's undergoing long-term restoration - I doubt that it will run at the moment.

The engine was lifted out of the loco about 2 years ago and should be
'fast-tracked' for renovation when the BHG (Bury Hydraulic Group)
finally finish off the CLass 14 heavy overhaul.

For details on the Co-Bos plus D5705 in preservation (and photos of the
engine lift) go to my website :-

http://travel.to/coboworld

> Wasn't there a BT Film about the 'Condor' (containers door-to-door) which usually ran with a pair of Co-Bos? Sound of two is better than none!

There was a brief clip in "Report on Modernsiation 2" of a Condor train
pulling away but I'm unaware of any 'feature'.

> >Of course what it will need is a HUGE cloud of smoke when it starts.
>
> And he means HHUUGGEE!!!

Don't forget the fire balls when under load!

Regards

Nick

Hi everyone

Good starting price, too!...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1029423282

Advanced Passenger Train – The Official Illustrated Account of British
Rail’s Revolutionary new 155mph Train
Avon Anglia/British Rail, 1981, 1st edition

48 pages, illustrated, 8" x 8" card covers. Wishful thinking! Fairly
detailed contemporary account of the great white hope for BR! Well
illustrated. VG in very slightly worn covers.

UK postage GBP1.50, Overseas – GBP 3.25.

Regards

Nick

Hi everyone

Kit Spackman wrote:

>
> The last Co-Bo, the one that was in the RTC Yard at the same time that
> E-Train was running, still exists in running condition. I think it's at
> Bury, along with 832 Onslaught, the Warship that it shared siding space
> with. It ought to be reasonably possible to get recordings of it's sounds
> I'd have thought.

I've got a movietone news feature on the E train on video and in the RTC
yard can be seen the Co-Bo (stationary). It's wuite surreal to see a
dinosaur and teh brave new world side by side.

> I doubt a 47 track would give the right effect as the Co-Bo had a 2 stroke
> engine. Something more American might work better, but it would need to be
> non-turbo'd. Maybe an SD-28?

That is what I suggested!

> Of course what it will need is a HUGE cloud of smoke when it starts <g>

and fireballs when under load!

Regards and thanks

Nick

Hi Gerry (et al)

>>The last Co-Bo, the one that was in the RTC Yard at the same time that

E-Train was running, still >>exists in running condition.<<

>I probably have a photo -somewhere! - of them together. <

I do too, taken from the roof of Brunel House, with E-Train in the
foreground, making like an aluminium snake, and the two diesels lurking on
Way and Works No 1.

>I understand that it's undergoing long-term restoration - I doubt that it

will run at the moment.<

Oh, that's good and bad news both at once.

>.... by blasting a very high temperature flame, called a plasma, at the

rail. (If we stood still with the >plasma torches running we bored neat
holes in the rail head!)<

Wasn't there a scheme for APT to use the plasma torch at some time? Either
as well as, or instead of the 'silica gun' business.

>The Co-Bo was used to measure adhesion by arranging for one axle to be

motored whilst the >other four had the brakes applied. Power was increased
until the powered wheels slipped, the >current at the moment of slipping
enabling a calculation of adhesion value.<

Now that MUST have been fun! Where did all that take place? I'm sure I'd
have remembered the smoke clouds <g>

>Wasn't there a BT Film about the 'Condor' (containers door-to-door) which

usually ran with a pair >of Co-Bos? Sound of two is better than none!<

There sure was. Two Co-Bos and a zillion CovABs wizzing up and down the MR
main line as I recall. Even MORE smoke!

>>Of course what it will need is a HUGE cloud of smoke when it starts.<<

>And he means HHUUGGEE!!<

I certainly do <cough splutter...>

Regards
Kit

Hi Folks!

I still have a few copies of this book for sale priced at
the 'original' cover price of only £1.95! (+ £1.50 P&P). If anyone is
interested in a copy please contact me off-group.

Take Care,
Andy

> Good starting price, too!...
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1029423282
>
> Advanced Passenger Train – The Official Illustrated Account of

British

> Rail's Revolutionary new 155mph Train
> Avon Anglia/British Rail, 1981, 1st edition
>
> 48 pages, illustrated, 8" x 8" card covers. Wishful thinking! Fairly
> detailed contemporary account of the great white hope for BR! Well
> illustrated. VG in very slightly worn covers.
>
> UK postage GBP1.50, Overseas – GBP 3.25.
>
> Regards
>
> Nick

Attachments :

APT-E postal stamp. Text above says: 100th anniversary of the universal
postal union





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Hi Kit,Rob,
Ive managed to video capture "Bransons Baby" on PC in RealPlayer
format, Ive added the programme to the APT CD that Id given you both.

Well, thats dont it Kit, we are both immortalised forever now......

I will bring some copies with me to the NRM on the 17th so at least
you Kit can have a new copy, Rob if you would like a copy email me
and I will send one off in the post to you.

The programme is in full screen, as long as your PC can load and de-
compress 500k a sec. I think we all have good PCs now so that
shouldnd be a problem.

See you on the 17th Kit.

Rob, hope you are well.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group