Earlier today I accidentally sent a message to the group intended for only
Paul - it contained confidential information - please delete this message
from your machine.

Rob

Hi everyone

A new thread on the uk.railway newsgroup which may interest some of you.

Regards

Nick

--
"A.Boodoo" wrote:

>
> Mark Drury wrote:
>
> > I wrote 370003 as a shorthand. As I understand it, the APT Prototype unit
> > keptin fixed sets, unless someone here knows otherwise!
>
> Almost...
>
> As with Eurostars, an APT-P train consisted of two 370s back to back. Each was
> meant to be IIRC a driving coach (it had seats), five coaches and a power car.
> The power cars ended up in the centre of the train.
>
> However, it seems trains were also run with a full 370 at one end, and just the
> power car and driving coach at the other, or something like that. The sets were
> varied for some odd reason, but that may have had something to do with the fact
> a full length APT-P formation was some 14 coaches long (the middle two being
> power cars), and with the power cars in the middle you effectively had two
> separate six coach trains.
>
> Anyway, I was only 4 at the time, so it's probably best to ask one of the
> posters on this group who actually used it and can remember...

Hi everyone
as Paul said it must be the time of year, as tomorrow we
have crews from both ITN & SKY NEWS coming to film the APT-P at Crewe.

These items will probably be broadcast early next week.

Rob

(more details tomorrow!)

Next week should be a good week for APT on television news, we have been
contacted by most companies (SKY, BBC National & Regional, ITN etc).

This is to accompany the launch of the Virgin Super Voyagers on Monday.

So keep a blank tape at the ready in your VCRs !

Rob

OOB - WOT TIME ARE THEY ON?????? - SO I CAN SET UP THE VIDEO

Dear All,

If any UK group members could make a spare copy of all the APT / Virgin TV
coverage about to be aired, I would gladly send funds to cover postage, tape
costs etc. The chances of such programs ever been seen 'down-under' is
extremely small !!

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Latham [mailto:rob@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:25
To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [APT Group] APT on TV

Next week should be a good week for APT on television news, we have been
contacted by most companies (SKY, BBC National & Regional, ITN etc).

This is to accompany the launch of the Virgin Super Voyagers on Monday.

So keep a blank tape at the ready in your VCRs !

Rob




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Bathmatus

The SKY NEWS will include the APT-P all morning upto 11am, after
that it will have the new Voyagers, as for the others just watch every UK
news bulletin !

Best Wishes

Rob

Hi everyone

From uk.railway....

Nick

Andy Mabbett wrote:

>
> There has just been a trailer on BBC Midlands, for tomorrow's "Midlands
> Today" (Mon. 9 July, 6.30pm, BBC1), which will, they say, feature the
> first test run of the new, Birmingham- built, tilting trains.

And another one!

Regards

Nick

--
David Bromage wrote:

>
> Sir Beard's wobbly train starts tests on Friday.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1428000/1428902.stm

Attachments :

Hi all,

Back from Germany now, and first day at work, I was reading The Mirror
newspaper in the staff room, when a small article glinted in my eye...


TRAINS TO TILT - by Gary Jones

SIR Richard Branson today launches a tilting train to cut rail journey times
by 25%. The Pendilino on trial at Alstcom's test track in Lecicester, will
drop the London to Glasgow trip down to under 4 hours. Sir Richard said:
"This is an exciting day for rail passengers, and a milestone for Virgin
Trains".
Virgin is spending �1bn on 477 coaches for the west coast main line on new
trains. They will run at 125mph and up to 140mph in 2005. Unlike British
Rail's design of 20 years ago, they tilt on bends without making passengers
sick.

====

Regards,

Steven
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Hi All,
we've just spent the last two days filming at Crewe with Juniper TV
for a channel 4 programme to be broadcast in October about Politics &
Railways.

Best Wishes


Rob

>Sky actually showed some old APT-P footage as well as
>the new Pendolino in action but my local BBC TV, North
>west, only managed the pendolino

Channel 5 are showing about 5 secs worth of footage of
370005 plus trotting out all the old favs about breaking
down on the press run and making people sick. <sigh>

Mind you this is the same programme that said the
Pendolino would be serving St Pancras!!!!

Simon

The below is from a small recording from ELTV's report, with video of the
APT-E:

"The APT, or Advanced Passenger Train was the original train, which ran at
speeds of up to 140mph. The train was scrapped in the mid-80's due to
problems which couldn't be fixed 'profitably'. Virgin are confident they
have overcome these problems with their new trains, like the successful
Italian Pendolino."

Steven :)


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Andy Appleton" <AndyAppleton@...>
Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
To: "APT Group" <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com >
Subject: [APT Group] New Tilting Trains Cannot Tilt !
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:29:15 +0100

The following was taken from BBC Northwest Teletext:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


'New Tilting Trains Are Not Able To Tilt'

The first of a new generation of tilting trains designed to dramatically cut
journey times between London and the Northwest have been tested today.

But it has emerged that the state of the track in the region means the
Virgin Tilting Trains will not be able to tilt when they come into service
next year.

They will also not be able to hit top speeds because an upgraded signalling
system will not be ready.

Virgin say it is a minor set back and safety has to come first.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sky actually showed some old APT-P footage as well as the new Pendolino in
action but my local BBC TV, Northwest, only managed the pendolino...Tut,
Tut, Tut...What am I getting for TV license money?


Take Care,
Andy

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

I was GROSSLY insulted by Sky News' latter coverage of the Virgin Pendelino
launch, as the ONLY reference they gave to the APT was that 'it was
withdrawn after the initial day's service because it made passengers
sick....'

I was so mad I phoned them straight away and told them my view of the
matter. The very polite lady at Customer Relations said she'd 'pass my
views on' and was about to ring off when I suggested she might like my
phone no. She said she doubted 'they' would want to pursue the matter, at
which I exploded and told her in NO uncertain terms that I DID want to
pursue it, and if no-one called me back I would take it higher.

All this after Rob's crew had given them every facility at Crewe to make
their programme too!

Rob, did the Centre get paid for that? If you didn't I'd start making
noises...

Kit (who's VERY angry....)

Hi Kit,
did you get a copy of that on tape ? - as I have only seen their
0839 news with the live interview with Sir Richard. (i.e. no APT)

Did they show the interview with Bill Andrew that they took in the cab on
Friday or the one with David Crabtree (SKY NEWS) sitting in second class who
said on one take (the last on & probably the one they used) 'left to rot in
Britain' !!!!!! - I knew I should have screamed / coughed at that point to
ruin the shot!

As regards payment he did say that he would have a word in the office to get
a donation sent out - but we've not received any cheque yet.

I had informed David of the facts about APT-P including that it still holds
the British speed record of 162.2 mph, and how it was running superbly once
the minor bugs were fixed.

Bill Andrew also said that it was the best thing that he ever drove (well
modern traction anyway as he loved steam and still drives the mainline steam
specials out of Crewe).

Please let me know if you hear any more - and if you could let me have a
copy of the tape that would be great.

Let's hope for better from the CH4 programme - they spent three hours
yesterday talking to a group of ex Drivers and a Guard, and then interviewed
Frank Addis (who drove Preston - London on 7 December 1981) in the cab of
48103 at Crewe - unfortunately I couldn't fit in the cab together with all
the crew so don't know what was said, but again Frank is of the opinion that
it was the best machine ever and wishes that the funding had continued to
see it to fruitition.

Rob

Hi everyone

Something from uk.railway to mull over whilst you fume over the tv news reports.

Regards

Nick

--
John Gough wrote:

>
> No comments yet on yesterday's Voyager runs over the Midland main line
> ...
>
> No records were broken, but the Voyager units put up a pretty
> impressive performance and seemed to shew that if conditions had been
> right we might have seen a new London-Leicester record.
>
> The 220 was able to accelerate to line-speed on the Midland and run at
> line-speed very easily (including 111 over Sharnbrook Summit).
> Powerful brakes and high acceleration meant that the impact of slacks
> was even less than it is with an HST.
>
> The trip to Leicester took 69 minutes 16 seconds (Peter Semmens and I
> were within a second of each other, neither of us knowing the other
> was on the train till after that section was done). But there was a
> severe signal check from Luton till after Limbury Lane whilst a down
> TL was got across at Leagrave (!). Then came a long 20 relaying slack
> at Harlington (which RT must have known about when they approved the
> high-speed timings for the 220). The result of this was that we were
> already well behind a good HST run when we passed Bedford. And then it
> was the turn of Leicester box, with adverse signals at Kilby Bridge,
> the usual slow run to Wigston South, and then a checked run into
> Leicester.
>
> The up run was also a 69-minute affair. This was through Leicester at
> 1537*, so was behind the 1530 non-stop HST. The 1535 Turbostar was
> held for the Voyager to pass. The HST must have been running pretty
> close to right time and pretty well, since the Voyager got a clear run
> right through to Camden Road. However, there was then a signal stop at
> Dock Junction.
>
> I then came back to Leicester on the 1715 Master Cutler and was duly
> 16 late arriving -- severe signals from TL at Harpenden, and severe
> signals from Kibworth right through to Leicester, as well as that 20
> m/h TSR at Harlington. And MML didn't even offer the complimentary
> glass of wine (or any apologies or explanations either).

Hi there,

ITN also mentioned that the Pendolino (sp?) was the fastest train in the UK,
but it's not! GNER's Intercity 225s can do 160mph.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Attachments :

The METRO (Free newspaper to commuters) had an entire page with pictures of
the new voyagers and the comments of the APT were "Cancelled the project
because when it tilted, it threw luggage off the racks, smashed items in the
restaurant and made people sick."

Steven :)


----Original Message Follows----
From: Nick Wheat <wheaty@...>
Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
To: APT Group <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [APT Group] Re: Voayger run
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:08:26 +0100


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Kit,

I work in the Media, and I sympathise with you.

Editors / Producers tell the story AS THEY SEE IT, which is not necessarily
either
the point of view of a contributor, OR the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth.

The real, and bitter truth, is that it costs a lot of money to get a crew and a
reporter
to a location, and so they "milk it" for all it is worth. When the editor comes
to putting the
final programme together, there is often between 8 and 13 times too much
material.
i.e. for a one hour programme between 8 and 13 hours worth of material is
filmed.

The director / editor will tell the story that he has been commissioned to
tell, and this
involves picking out the bits that tell HIS story from all the material.
The director / editor has to be totally ruthless with what goes in his final
story, and sometimes
I've seen whole inserts cut out, because their "sub story" can't be told in the
time available.

There is a public joke about the local rag reporter, who always spells the
names wrong...
Well TV stories are little different. A director may know nothing about his
subject when
he is given the assignment, and he only has a limited time to get his story
together.
(He may well be working on more than one story at once, as well)

In the limited time he has available he has to organise research, film what he
considers
relevant, and put the story together. Earlier (incorrect) stories, are
frequently used as
research material by current programme makers, and
churned back out again. Still containing the original error.

I know that in theory, every programme, newspaper and magazine report SHOULD be
thoroughly researched, using the best material available.
The truth is, I'm sorry to say, that it's usually done in a hurry, with limited
resources
and under pressure..... and often incorrect.


Peter E Davies
carnforth.station@...
http://travel.to/carnforth

On Monday, July 09, 2001 9:52 PM, Kit Spackman [SMTP:101453.3657@compuserve.
com] wrote:

> I was GROSSLY insulted by Sky News' latter coverage of the Virgin Pendelino
> launch, as the ONLY reference they gave to the APT was that 'it was
> withdrawn after the initial day's service because it made passengers
> sick....'
>
> I was so mad I phoned them straight away and told them my view of the
> matter. The very polite lady at Customer Relations said she'd 'pass my
> views on' and was about to ring off when I suggested she might like my
> phone no. She said she doubted 'they' would want to pursue the matter, at
> which I exploded and told her in NO uncertain terms that I DID want to
> pursue it, and if no-one called me back I would take it higher.
>
> All this after Rob's crew had given them every facility at Crewe to make
> their programme too!
>
> Rob, did the Centre get paid for that? If you didn't I'd start making
> noises...
>
> Kit (who's VERY angry....)
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Well, what a load of old bollocks!

Excuse the expletive but that's exactly how I feel today. Don't ANY of
these media people do any research at all? What do they get paid for? I
could write a better novel than this load of old cobblers!

Commenting on each posting in turn....

>Unlike British Rail's design of 20 years ago, they tilt on bends without

making passengers sick.<

Really? If passengers are going to be sick at zero cant defficiency in an
APT so they will in a Pendlino, you can't change the laws of physics Jim.
People are sick in cars and aircraft but do they make headlines? No....

>But it has emerged that the state of the track in the region means the

Virgin Tilting Trains will not >be able to tilt when they come into service
next year<

Cobblers! The state of the track has NOTHING to do with whether a vehicle
can tilt or not. If Railtrack haven't built enough cant into the track for
the 50% speed increase maybe the Pendilino won't be able to tilt fast
enough to reduce the cant defficiency to acceptble limits. That's not the
same thing at all.

> The train was scrapped in the mid-80's due to problems which couldn't be

fixed 'profitably'. >Virgin are confident they have overcome these
problems with their new trains, like the >successful Italian Pendolino."<

This comes closest to the real situation. BR and the Government couldn't
agree about the amount they should spend on APT when the marketing guys
were unsure of the rate of return on investment at the time.

> ... did you get a copy of that on tape ? - as I have only seen their 0839

news with the live interview >with Sir Richard. (i.e. no APT)<

I've got the early Sky footage, showing Bill Andrew in the cab and the
presenter in the P-Train coach, and the insulting evening footage which
made me so angry. I still am now.....

And I have the 10 pm ITN bulletin, but I haven';t checked it out yet.

>....and seemed to shew that if conditions had been right we might have

seen a new >London-Leicester record.<

Yeah right....

>The trip to Leicester took 69 minutes 16 seconds....<

That's 10 mins 32 secs to cut off the E-Train's record. AND we didn't have
HST type track to do it on either.

>(including 111 over Sharnbrook Summit)<

E Train managed 115 and 118 over Desborough......

>It was first tried 20 years ago when British Rail launched it's Advanced

Passenger Train. It used >inflatable airbags to tilt carriages. But they
tilted too far, sending luggage flying and making >passengers feel ill. It
broke down on a test run in 1982 and, after further technical hitches, BR

>scrapped the project, only to watch the Italians perfect the technology.<

Just about EVERY statement here is wrong! APT-E ran in 1973 with it's tilt
systems active although we could have done the first ever run in July '72
with TC1 and TC2 active. The 'Management' wouldn't let me power them up
despite our section having worked most of the previous night to change a
faulty acceleromter.

Airbags? AIRBAGS? That was the secondary suspension system, not the tilt
system! The tilt system used a high presssure serv-hydraulic control
system, just like the X2000 does today.

And they didn't either tilt too far or send luggage flying. The P-Train
tilt system just can't do that, unlike the naturally unstable E-Train
system.

The Pendlino tilt technology owes nothing to the APT system, apart from the
fact that it's the same physical idea. They work on different principles
and FIAT were working on their single coach Pendelino prototype at around
the same time as were doing E-Train.

>All I can say is if it wasn't for the APT the Pendolino wouldn't be

here...<

That may be commercially true Andy, but not technically. FS would still
have had their Pendelinos even if we had got APT-P and -S into service.

>.....and the comments of the APT were "Cancelled the project because when

it tilted, it threw >luggage off the racks, smashed items in the restaurant
and made people sick."<

Even THEY can't get it right, and they're in the same industry! Can't they
READ?????

Words almost fail me, I dispair of anyone getting a true idea of the state
of anything happening in the UK, or the world, today if the media can't get
some basic historical facts correct.

Needless to say I have not heard from Sky News today. I feel a volcanic
phone call coming on somwehere.

Regards
Kit

Kit

All I can say is that I saw the coverage yesterday and was thoroughly
dissapointed that none of the impartial public service media thought
to check the true story with the people involved ie yourself. Even a
phonecall to the NRM would have been something more positive. What
is the point of talking to people like Rob if they are just going to
pour over their own archived material!!!!

I get the impression that they wanted to publicise these fantastic
new trains and surely there must be commercial links at work here.
Unfortunately the only thing they could compare the trains with was
APT and this is evident in how they selectively failed to mention
that APT was 15 mph faster and that it ran reliably when it was
quietly introduced back into service in 1984 and that it set a
London - Glasgow record in the process. They did not even touch on
TGVs recent run over 1000 km in 3 and a half hours!!!

Funny, I can't think of one press article in recent times that
portrays the real story.

Simon

Hi All,
We all know that APT didnt go into service because of market forces
and mis-management by BR and the Gov.

Its about time that something was done to address the balance.

When BBC Midlands come to the NRM to film E train, Im gonna make sure
that no crap is spouted about APT and that the programme doesnt see
the light of day until I (we) have seen it.

At least the people in the midlands will get the true storey.

Why dont we all pull our information and write a "The Real Story of
APT, by the people who know!" article and get one of the big rail
mags to print it, we have had serveral offers for this to be done
already. Post some feedback on this idea.

The two most important people in this would be Kit (Mr Tilt)
Spackman, for E train & P, and Rob (Mr P Train) Latham for the rest.

Im sure we could produce something that would wakeup the media and
all the other railway buffs who think APT was a waste of time and
money.

As a side note, it was interesting how the BBC news gave more time to
the destruction of Elvis's last concert hall than to the first demo
run of 220's.

Now is the time to act.

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Brilliant idea !! I'm up for it. I am getting fed up with all the
negative press about the APT. I think the time has come to put the
record straight once & for all.


Take Care,
Andy

> Why dont we all pull our information and write a "The Real Story of
> APT, by the people who know!" article and get one of the big rail
> mags to print it, we have had serveral offers for this to be done
> already. Post some feedback on this idea.

Hi Paul
I'm afraid that Peter Davies is dead right about the media,
they always come with a predetermined story to tell and no matter
what you tell them they don't waver from that line.

Best wishes with Midlands at least the advantage of that one is the
fact that Peter Plisner is very interested in railways.

Rob

Paul & all

The leaflet that I prepared for the NRM open day could be used (with
a bit of tweaking) as a start for an article although this only
covers e-train.

Simon Argyle

Hi All
I've just got hold of the Virgin Press Release from Monday, it
includes the line....

"Guest witnessed a high-speed "fly-past" by the newly-named Pendolino "Red
Revolution", before becoming the first passengers to ride on a tilting train
in the UK since 1982."

What chance have the media got of getting the facts right if 'official'
press releases from a company like virgin contain such errors ??


Rob

Hi Rob and all,
At least you can say that we have tried our best to correct the line
on APT, at present they are just getting away with murder. We can
use the fact the media always bends the truth to fit there storey, to
our advantage, lets not be defeatest here, WE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT
IT. After all I got the NRM to sit up and take notice of E train and
the internal opinion about E train has changed somewhat since the
support group started.

We could use information from the leaflet that Simon produced, the
article I wrote for the NRM Friends mag as a base. Robs P train
information can be added and also a section from Kit. We have had
the offer to print corrections about APT, at least we should give it
a go, and who knows?

If anyone wants to contribute, then send me there contribution, I
dont mind putting it all together, thats if no one else wants to do
it.

The final article can be posted on here, and then anyone can comment.

Like I said before, NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT!

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Attachments :

Hi

I caught the last 10 minutes of the coverage regarding the bullet train this
evening on bbc2. I noticed Richard Gibbon talkign once or twice on it, as
well as other nrm people.

Was anything mensioned regarding the apt, and did anyone record this? I
heard him saying that "it's proof that a safe and reliable railway can be
built and sustained..."

The bullet is now located next to the Mallard and the Eurostar.


Thanks,


Steven
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Hi Steve,
Yes I did see the programme on BEEB 2 about the Bullet to York.
Richard was in it all the time as the film crew followed him round in
Japan sorting it all out.

There was no mention of APT, just to say that Bullet was an important
addition to the NRM and deserved its place in side, E trains the
fastest none electrified train in Britain and has to live outside,
mores the pitty!!!

Regards

Paul

Paul, Rob, Kit & all

I have got some text here that I have done towards an article (that
never got finished), so I could put an article together if you wish.

With the leaflet and your (Paul) work for the friends magazine I
think that E-train is pretty much covered, although Kit might have
something to add.

I have a lack of information on P-train. Perhaps (Rob) could put
something together in general about the p-train but something in
detail about after 1987 and the work of his group would be useful.

Kit - It would be really good to have a proper account of the first
run!!, and any other information regarding the design of the p-train
(and e-train) tilt system.

If this information could be sent to me and someone could then lend
me a copy of A promise unfulfilled, I should be able to write a
correct account of the whole project as a magazine article.

What do you think?


Simon Argyle
APT-E Support & Conservation Group @ NRM

I belive that TRAINSIM is released in UK on 20th JULY so hows about
building those APTs now...

Bathmatus

Hi All,

�

I don't believe it.......

�

The next issue of RAIL magazine (issue 414 �July 25 - August 7) features a four page article about the new Virgin Pendolino.

�

It starts off by saying "Nearly 20 years after politicians sank BR's ground breaking APT, Britain at last has a new tilting train."

�

It goes on to say the following about the APT: "The 100mph sprint by the class 390 on Alstom's 12-mile test track made it the first British tilting train to carry passengers since the ill-fated British Rail Advanced Passenger Train was torpedoed by politicians in 1982."

�

At last....'Some' of the truth has been published in the leading RAIL magazine !

�

�

Let's Keep The Ball Rolling,

Andy

�

P.S. The magazine also�contains an article about the Advanced Tilting Train GNER considered acquiring for the ECML

Hi Gerry,

>Hope you all noticed my defence of the APT in The Guardian a week last

Friday, following the >derogatory remarks made by the press following the
Pendolino announcement earlier that week. >My letter solicited several
e-mails, including one from the widow of George Morland, Testing &

>Performance Engineer at the Tech Centre during APT trials.<

No Gerry, I didn't. That probably has something to do with the fact that I
don't read ANY papers following their treatment of the APT-P on it's launch
day in 1982.

Would you like to append the text of your letter to the list? It would be
nice to read something published publicly that was positive about the APT
again.

>I also corrected a GNER website claim that one of their trains held the UK

speed record. It should >have been qualified with "in passenger service" of
course.<

Just what you'd expect of a commercial organisation. It would be like BA
claiming the World Air Speed Record in a Concorde.....

>It's intriguing to think that, if there were no test running on the CTRL

before it opens (an unlikely >scenario!), then the first service train on
the opening day would break both the APT and Class 91 >records.<

I rather doubt the SRA or Railtrack would let anyone run a service train on
a 'new' line without some speed runs in excess of line limit just to prove
it's safe, if for no other reason. There's probably a Rule against it
somewhere.

>I have a copy of "APT - A Promise Unfulfilled"; does anyone know of a book

which takes the >history a little further?<

No-one's ever bothered to back up Hugh's book as far as I know. He had a
tough time getting information out of the P-Train people when he wrote
'Promise Unfulfilled' way back when.

Regards
Kit

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Running at full tilt
Guardian

Friday July 13, 2001


My blood boils when the myth is propagated that British Rail's
advanced passenger train was a failure (Tilting at time, July 10).
The only failure was the PR.

The embarrassing inaugural run was forced on the development team by
BR's senior management when there were still problems to be ironed
out. There were complaints from members of the press that the tilt
system made them feel nauseous, but there is some suspicion that
liberal hospitality may have made a contribution to this.

After the media demolition job, APT development continued and the
train began to show promise. As a member of the BR research team
responsible for measuring the effect of high-speed trains on the
overhead power collection system, I was usually trackside during APT
tests, but I grabbed the chance of a ride on one of the test runs.

On the sinuous section of the west coast main line from Gretna to
Beattock, on a rising gradient, the speed was held at 155mph. To
describe the experience as exhilarating would be wrong - it was
without fuss and I felt none of the ill-effects earlier commentators
alleged they had suffered.

The APT holds the UK rail speed record of 162.2 mph, achieved on
December 20 1979. Britain's present fastest train is the Eurostar,
which daily reaches 186mph in service, but this speed won't be
achieved in Britain until the first section of the Channel tunnel
rail link is opened.

APTs went into service, with no fanfare, replacing ordinary electric
services on the Glasgow-Euston run, but the BR board lost its nerve
and funding was withdrawn. If it weren't for this we could be selling
tilting trains to the world rather than the other way round.
Gerry Bates
Sheffield


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Tilting at time
Virgin test train clocks 125mph


Keith Harper
Guardian

Tuesday July 10, 2001


The first tilting train to run in Britain for almost 20 years
performed at speeds of up to 125mph on a test track in Leicestershire
yesterday, and will start carrying passengers next June.

It is the precursor of a £1bn fleet of 53 tilting trains, pictured,
in Sir Richard Branson's Virgin fleet, which are due to run on the
west coast main line between London and Glasgow by November next
year.

The first experiment by British Rail in 1982 ended in disaster, when
the test train broke down. It was abandoned, but a fine example of
British engineering innovation was taken up in Europe, and tilting
trains now operate in nine other countries. Britain will be the 10th.

"BR was not brave enough to finish the job," said Sir Richard. A more
accurate reflection of the sad story is that government was not
prepared to give it the money.

The handsomely designed trains, built by Alstom, can reach speeds of
up to 140mph, but this will not happen until 2005 and will depend on
whether Railtrack can deliver its £6.3bn contract to upgrade the west
coast line.

The 125mph speed is not revolutionary, even in Britain. But from next
year, journey times between London and Birmingham should be reduced
to one hour.

Virgin hopes to recoup the costs of development of the project by
doubling the number of passengers from 15m to 30m a year.




Bathmatus

In response to Kit's request, the text of my letter is appended below.

Gerry Bates

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 22/07/01 at 16:21 Kit Spackman wrote:

>Hi Gerry,
>
>>Hope you all noticed my defence of the APT in The Guardian a week last
>>Friday, following the derogatory remarks made by the press following the
>>Pendolino announcement earlier that week. My letter solicited several
>e-mails, including one from the widow of George Morland, Testing &
>>Performance Engineer at the Tech Centre during APT trials.<
>
>No Gerry, I didn't. That probably has something to do with the fact that I
>don't read ANY papers following their treatment of the APT-P on it's launch
>day in 1982.
>
>Would you like to append the text of your letter to the list? It would be
>nice to read something published publicly that was positive about the APT
>again.

*********** GUARDIAN LETTER ***********

My blood boils when the myth is propagated that British Rail's Advanced Passenger Train was a failure. The only failure was the PR!

The embarrassing inaugural run was forced on the development team by BR's senior management when there were still problems to be ironed out. There were complaints from members of the press that the tilt system made them feel nauseous but there is some suspicion that liberal hospitality may have made a contribution!

After the media demolition job APT development continued quietly and the train began to show promise as a highly successful concept. As a member of the BR Research team responsible for measuring the effect of high speed trains on the overhead power collection system I was usually at track-side during APT tests but I snapped up the chance of a ride on one of the test runs. On the sinuous section of the West Coast Main Line from Gretna to Beattock, on a rising gradient, the speed was held at 155mph. To describe the experience as exhilarating would be completely wrong as it was entirely without fuss and I felt none of the ill-effects from which earlier commentators alleged they had suffered.

Incidentally, the APT holds the UK rail speed record of 162.2 mph, achieved on 20th December, 1979. Britain's present fastest train is the Eurostar which daily reaches 186 mph in service, but it will not be until the first section of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link is opened that this speed will be achieved in Britain.

APTs went into service, with no fanfare, replacing ordinary electric services on the Glasgow - Euston run, but finally the BR Board lost its nerve and funding was withdrawn. Had this not been the case we could now have been selling tilting trains to the world rather than the other way round!

Hi All,
Just a quick note to say that the BBC are coming to the NRM in August
to film E train and to talk to members of the support group about the
APT project, with a little luck, we maybe able to keep the ball
rolling about telling the true story of the APT to the public.

Nice article Gerry by the way.

Watch this space for more information as I get it.

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Paul,

Find out who the RESEARCHER is on the programme.
(This may be the director as well, depending on programme budget)

SEND the researcher full WRITTEN information about the APT / Project
giving sources, and full quotes.

CHECK that the researcher has received the information, and don't
assume
that what is obvious to you, is going to be obvious to a researcher.

There is no way that you can sway editorial decisions.
If a broadcaster wishes to do a "killer" programme, then you can't
stop them, BUT,
if you have sent verifiable, correct information, well before the
location shoot, then hopefully, the production team have correct
information to work on.
BUT... if the programme transmits what you consider to be inaccurate
information, AFTER you have provided correct, verifiable information,
then you can complain to the Broadcasting Complaint=
s Council, who WILL
investigate.

Peter E Davies
gw0hqd@...


--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Paul Leadley"
<Silver_dream_racer@y...> wrote:

> Hi All,
> Just a quick note to say that the BBC are coming to the NRM in

August

> to film E train and to talk to members of the support group about

the

> APT project, with a little luck, we maybe able to keep the ball
> rolling about telling the true story of the APT to the public.
>
> Nice article Gerry by the way.
>
> Watch this space for more information as I get it.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Leadley
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Hi Peter,

>Find out who the RESEARCHER is on the programme.
>(This may be the director as well, depending on programme budget)<

I've already spoken to one of the team from BBC Midlands, who sounded like
a researcher to me.

>SEND the researcher full WRITTEN information about the APT / Project

giving sources, and full >quotes.<

With respect, that's hardly practical, is it? It would encompass 3 or 4
filing cabinets full of documentation, which we just don't have access to
as they are in the care of what was BR at the time. I pointed out her to
the existence of 'Promise Unfullfilled', without which no-one can even get
past first base in learning about APT though.

>CHECK that the researcher has received the information, and don't assume

that what is obvious >to you, is going to be obvious to a researcher.<

That's one of the reasons why they are coming to the NRM, to have a sit
down chat with me, amongst others.

>There is no way that you can sway editorial decisions. If a broadcaster

wishes to do a "killer" >programme, then you can't stop them, BUT, if you
have sent verifiable, correct information, well >before the location shoot,
then hopefully, the production team have correct

>information to work on. BUT... if the programme transmits what you

consider to be inaccurate

>information, AFTER you have provided correct, verifiable information,

then you can complain to >the Broadcasting Complaints Council, who WILL
investigate.<

How is it that 'the media' can get away with lying through their teeth and
seem to be 100% fireproof, in cases like this and yet if I said 'the great
majority of journalists are drunken cowboys who couldn't write their way
out of a paper bag' they would do their best to sue me? (That is a
non-attributable statement, for the record....)

When the guy from Channel 4 spoke to me on the phone recently he quite
carefully didn't say one word that I had actually told him, saying that
'...... the usual excuses were made for people being sick.....' referring
to the inaugural run of APT-P. If he didn't want to know, why ask???!

The next time anyone of them calls me they will get a lesson in rudeness!

Regards
Kit

Hi Kit,

Sorry, perhaps I sounded too pedantic with my suggestions.

No hate mail please.. but I work in the Media, and frequently in News,
so I am well aware of what goes on....:-(

Ocassionaly directors / researchers are given projects which they
know something about / interest them.. but most of the time, they are
just given a "brief" by a producer to go and make a XX minute
programme about XYZ.
Frequently the producer also tells them what "angle" to take on the
programme. (The producer having the ultimate editorial control)

Its a symptomatic problem within the Media that most researcher /
directors are on short term contracts, and if they displease a
producer their contract isn't renewed.

Programme makers are forced to go from "Zero to Hero" with their
knowledge about a subject, in a matter of (if they are lucky) weeks.
I have seen the situation where a researcher has gone out, and talked
to contributors, as the film crew are unpacking and setting up.

When I said

>SEND the researcher full WRITTEN information about the APT / Project
>giving sources, and full quotes.

It wasn't my intention that you send him 3 or 4 filing cabinets of
information (which he wouldn't have time to read anyway).
Forgive me if I phrased it badly, but my intention was that you send
him two or three A4 pages of relevant, core information, which can
then be used as a basis for further research

The first (and easiest) place a researcher will look for background
information is the newspapers.
As we all know, many of the newspapers trade on sensational
headlines, and the stories may well contain a certain degree of
inaccuaracy !!!
Print journo's often only have minutes or at best a few hours to
prepare a story.
There is a saying in the Industry, that "You must NEVER let the truth
get in the way of a good story"

Giving the researcher a paper "brief" about the APT BEFORE you
meet, will give him / her, chance to look at the story from
possibly a different angle.. and also chance to understand the
APT situation better, which in turn, perhaps, will allow your
meeting with the researcher to be more productive.
If, for example Derby Research Centre produced a document detailing
a particular test run, which the Media attended and were critical of,
a mention of this document (with location references) in your brief
to the researcher, at least enables the researcher to have knowledge
about the existance of the document.

> How is it that 'the media' can get away with lying through their

teeth and

> seem to be 100% fireproof, in cases like this

If you want chapter and verse about the Media "twisting" the truth,
meet me for a drink one night and I shall bend your ear for you :-(

Journo's are human, some are downright "bent" and will manufacture
stories. Most take a story, and make the "best" they can of it.
"RANDY VICAR IN LOVE NEST TRIANGLE" sells many more copies of a
newspaper, than "Vicar Jones, 79, at Church Bazar gives peck on cheek
to OAP"

You can't fight sensationalistic (gutter press)journalism, their
lawyers are VERY expensive and VERY good.

Television is a different matter though, there are a number of
bodies whose job it is to ensure that what is Broadcast is
truthful, fair and honest.

By preparing the ground, (by supplying a brief) IF statements are made
on the transmitted programme, which they KNOW to be incorrect, then
an indivudual has redress through the various bodies,the Broadcasting
Complaints Council being one of these bodies.

> When the guy from Channel 4 spoke to me on the phone recently he

quite

> carefully didn't say one word that I had actually told him, saying

that

> '...... the usual excuses were made for people being sick.....'

referring

> to the inaugural run of APT-P. If he didn't want to know, why

ask???!

>
> The next time anyone of them calls me they will get a lesson in

rudeness!

Perhaps he was purposefully distorting the truth?

He may well claim that in talking to you, he was asking the opinion
of an "enthusiast", and that in his judgement you were "biased", and
that he was using his journalistic skills to extract the story
AS HE SAW IT, from you, and other sources.

If you feel that his reporting was unfairly biased or inaccurate,
make a complaint to the programme producer (name found on the
credits).
If you get an unsatisfactory response, complain to the series
producer, the editor, and channel director, Channel 4 Ltd.,
and the Channel 4 regulatory body.

At the end of the day, Journo's get away with murder because
the public don't complain enough.

Give Journo's the correct information, so that if the final story
contains (significant) innacuracies, then you DO have the ammunition
to complain with.

Peter E Davies
gw0hqd@...

Dear All,

I visited 'The Railway Age' museum (Crewe) and had a tour around the P
train. If anything it has increased my curiosity and interest.

Regards,

AT

Birmingham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Leadley" <Silver_dream_racer@...>
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 9:35 AM
Subject: [APT Group] BBC and the APTs


> Hi All,
> Just a quick note to say that the BBC are coming to the NRM in August
> to film E train and to talk to members of the support group about the
> APT project, with a little luck, we maybe able to keep the ball
> rolling about telling the true story of the APT to the public.
>
> Nice article Gerry by the way.
>
> Watch this space for more information as I get it.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Leadley
> APT-E Conservation & Support Group
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi All

Is this the shortest ever auction ??


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Ends 02-Aug-01 06:24:57 BST

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just over six and a half hours ?? - one bid.


Rob

Paul, Kit and Co,

Will the APT be opened again this August bank holiday, following the
success of last time?

Just a thought :)

Thanks,

Steven