From the last e-mail, you may be interested to note that I get rather annoyed
when I think that Virgin have spent over �200m, keeping Italian workers in
their jobs when Britian has already produced equivalent technology.

I would be interested in comments, either via the group or to my e-mail
address about the idea of trying to secure funding to redesign and eventually
sell APT-S in a somewhat modified form? Am I mad? Probably, but it would be
nice to succeed.

I am not an engineer, or anything of the sort (well, Ok I am an IT Engineer)
so my knowledge is very limited, and opinions would be much appreciated.

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

Attachments :

Attachments :

Attachments :

Dear Mr Larking,

Re: your mail

> From the last e-mail, you may be interested to note that I get

rather annoyed

> when I think that Virgin have spent over £200m, keeping Italian

workers in

> their jobs when Britian has already produced equivalent technology.

I have been researching the history of the APT and comparing it to
the Pendolino for a university thesis (I am a mechanical Engineer).

In some promotional material the Virgin Trains sent me, it states
that the total cost of the trains to Virgin is (wait for it!)
£590 million for 53 x 8 or 9 car trains
+
£500 million for a lifetime maintenance contract with FIAT/Alstom.

If you thought £200 million was annoying...

Alex Stallman
Manchester School of Engineering

Hi Andy,

>I have managed to track down 'The Passenger Train Map' by Bartholomew

1975, <

By now you will probably have noticed that the map scans didn't arrive on
the List.

This isn't the first time members have tried to do this, but the List
system just deletes any attachments, so it looks as if you'll have to
upload the scans to the list web site.

Regards
Kit

Hello Kenneth,

>From the last e-mail, you may be interested to note that I get rather

annoyed when I think that >Virgin have spent over £200m, keeping Italian
workers in their jobs when Britian has already >produced equivalent
technology.<

And Germans..... Adtranz are involved in the Pendelino 390 project too.
Those of us who were at the last E-Train working weekend had a chance to
meet Wolfgang Kling, who's the Adtranz Tilt System Development Engineer (my
old job <g>) for the Class 390s. He'd come up to the NRM especially to see
the E-Train because (his words....) 'This was the pioneer, the start of it
all. Everyone in this business should come to visit and honour it..' I
spent at least an hour talking cant angles, tilt response rates,
accelerometer positioning etc. with him, great fun!

>I would be interested in comments, either via the group or to my e-mail

address about the idea of >trying to secure funding to redesign and
eventually sell APT-S in a somewhat modified form? >Am I mad? Probably,
but it would be nice to succeed. <

Hmmm, the phrase 'cloud cuckoo land' comes to mind. Not in a derogatry
fashion, just the reality of the situation.

The problem is who owns the technology? BR used to, but when the company
was sold off, in Mrs. Thatcher's infinite wisdom, the APT technology went
with the sale, a little bit of it to anyone who thought they had a right to
it presumably. BR Engineering, which became ABB and then Adtranz, probably
has the strongest line on ownership, and as you can see from my first
paragraph they are actually selling some parts of it back to us. It's not
our fault that they are German. (Well, it is if you voted for Maggie of
course....)

The market has also moved on, the TOCs don't see a sale for hyper-fast
trains on existing track anymore. Note that the 390s are only going to run
at 125 mph to start with, and will only accelerate to 140 mph (15 mph short
of APT's planned 'normal' speed) afer a £6.5 BILLION upgrade to the WCML!!
P-Train was going to do 155 mph on the existing track, so clearly Virgin
for one don't see any worth in investing the extra cash for performance
over and above what the Pendelino will give them.

Sadly I'd have to say that the financial and engineering infrastructure
probably doesn't exist in the UK any more to make a good sale of a
hyper-fast tilting 'Son of APT'. Most current projects are for world wise
use, and tend to be a bit 'watered down' from the original plan.

Regards
Kit

Hi everyone

Anyone won the lottery lately ? !!

An original 16mm BTF film print "New Age For Railways" is for sale on
Ebay that features the APT-P. "New Age For Railways" also features
Japan, Poland, France (TGV) & German railway developments.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1430130887

Also on there are other BTF films :-

Inter City 1250 (HST KX - Peterborough in 5 minutes)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1430131363

Overture 125 (HST journey set to original classic music)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1430131977

The seller is based in the USA and though the prints purport to be of
very good quality, they are not cheap ($89 for th APT & $59 for the HST
ones) so it looks like the seller knows their worth :-(

Hope this is of interest.

Regards

Nick
webmaster http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk

PS - All three of these films (plus others) were on a BR compilation
video produced exclusively for the Education Service.

Hi Andy,

>Yahoo! have recently changed the way attachments are shown. Instead of

showing the >attachment picture they just show a box with the word
'Download' and you must click on the >'Download' to view the attachment. <

Yahoo might do that, but when the msg arrives on the list it says 'This
message contained attachements'. Note past tense of contain.....

There isn't any download button for them on my email I'm afraid.

Regards
Kit

After my diatribe on here about the Rail Magazine mention of APT, I put my
fingers to the phone, and called Pip Dunn at EMAP, the guy responsible for
the ariticle. His opening gambit was 'I wished I'd talked to you two weeks
ago..........' <g>

His problem with the article seemed to be the total lack of information on
the project at all, not helped by the 'official' line of 'Sorry mate, we
don't know niffink about that APT thing' put about by the current railway
administrations. Well, they wouldn't, would they? All they know about is
running trains, not inventing them...

Anyway, it seems Mr Dunn is interested in putting the record straight and
I've given him the URLs of both APT web pages. Any or all of us might be
contacted in the future, so watch this space.

Regards
Kit

Hi All,
There is an interesting article in Junes "The Railway Magazine"
entitled "Return of the Gas Turbine".

It covers the use of gas turbine engines in a railway world, also has
some very nice photographs of 18100, GT3 and APT-E.

The articles final shot is the proposed new Gas turbine powered HST
replacement powercars.

Also an interesting artcile on the revamp of the WCM.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Attachments :

In my youth, I remember seeing an APT as a "failure" in the up
loop sidings.

Local "word" had it that the APT had broken an axle whilst
travelling down Shap.

Can anybody confirm if this is true... or if not what IS the
true story.. and what is the date that this happened

many thanks,


Peter E Davies
http://travel.to/carnforth

Hi Peter,

>In my youth, I remember seeing an APT as a "failure" in the up loop

sidings.

>Local "word" had it that the APT had broken an axle whilst travelling

down Shap.

>Can anybody confirm if this is true... or if not what IS the true story..

and what is the date that this >happened<

It's only too true unfortunately. Some time in late Spring 1980 the third
P-Train had an axle come apart while travelling at 125 mph. As luck would
have it, David Boocock, the Chief APT Design Engineer was on board at the
time, and realised there was a problem when he heard ballast being blasted
against the floor of the coach. He pulled the communication cord and
stopped the train, but not before it had traversed a reverse curve at max.
cant defficiency with the axle in two halves, which says something for the
safety margins built into the train.

One of the trailer car axles had been mis-assembled, and the ring of bolts
that held the two halves of the HK braked axle had come apart, derailing
itself. All three P-Trains were withdrawn while every axle was checked, but
it didn't do the project any good from a publicity point of view. Mind you,
almost NOTHING the APT did was good enough for the media in those days. If
an APT had flown to the Moon they would have printed that it had overrun
the buffers at Euston.....

Regards
Kit

Attachments :

We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

APT-E Workday Number 11

Date: Saturday, June 9, 2001
Time: 10:00AM - 4:00PM GMT

APT-E Workday Number 11 at the National Railway Museum

Rob Latham,
Kit Spackman
Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
Paul Leadley

Many thanks to all of you, for the information that you have provided about the
APT
incident near to Carnforth, in 1980.

I have collated the information from various sources, and compiled it as below.

I am intending to put it on the Carnforth Station website (accident section),
and it
will probably also appear in the Carnforth Chronicle, the newsletter of the
Friends of Carnforth Station.

If anybody has any further information, please do pass it on.

I assume that either the APT support team, or the APT-E Conservation & Support
Group
would like a link from the Carnforth Station website, <
http://travel.to/carnforth > ?

If you would like to contact me with your preferred URL and possibly a small
banner, or image, I would be happy to include it on my links page.

I haven't found any photographs relating to the incident. I wonder if anybody
might
have one lurking in an album somewhere ?

Thanks again,


Peter E Davies
carnforth@...
http://travel.to/carnforth



****************************************************************************
******************

On Friday 18 April 1980 the third APT P-Train had an axle come apart while
travelling at 125 mph.

The train was conveying a party of VIP`s on a run from Glasgow to
Carnforth along with David Boocock, the Chief APT Design Engineer.
David Boocock, realised there was a problem when he heard ballast being
blasted against the floor of the coach. He pulled the communication cord and
stopped the train, but not before it had traversed a reverse curve at
maximum cant deficiency with the axle in two halves. The train came to a stand,
near
Yealand, just to the north of Carnforth. There were no injuries, and damage to
the track and train were minimal.

One of the trailer car axles had been mis-assembled, and the ring of bolts
that held the two halves of the hydrokinetic braked axle had come apart,
derailing itself.
Temporary repairs were undertaken, and then the train was moved to the
Carnforth "Up"
loop, where it remained for most of the 19th April, whilst further repairs were
made.

All three P-Trains were temporarily withdrawn while every axle was checked.

Thanks to:-

John Lancaster, Ron Herbert, David H,

Kit Spackman, Andy, Paul Leadley (APT-E Conservation & Support Group)

Rob Latham, APT-P Support Team, The Railway Age, Vernon Way, Crewe, CW1 2DB

For their help in researching this information.

Peter E Davies
carnforth@...
http://travel.to/carnforth
****************************************************************************
******************************

Hi All
are any of you interested in helping to 'build an APT' to run
in Microsofts TrainSim ? perhaps we should set up a group to share
ideas, files etc??


Bathmatus

Hi I wood like to help.
From Gary

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., bathmatus@y... wrote:
> Hi All
> are any of you interested in helping to 'build an APT' to run
> in Microsofts TrainSim ? perhaps we should set up a group to share
> ideas, files etc??
>
>
> Bathmatus

Hi,
count me in too ! especially if you are modelling the P Train, but who's going to digitise the whole WCML for us?

Rob

A number of people have recently expressed an interest in developing a model of the Advanced Passenger Train for use in the
Microsoft Train Simulator. A decision must be made as to model either the APT-E, APT-P or preferably both trains, obviously as we
have a tame P-Train here in Crewe, I personally would love to see that one first, although I expect Kit would rather have his
E-Train running on a virtual Old Dalby!

The APT project should include

Cab View
Traction
Braking
Tilt

Additional features could include

Exterior View
Passenger View
C-APT
Appropriate routes (inc Old Dalby for Kit !)


I'm currently putting together a web-page to follow the progress made with any models of either train.

Keep me informed.....

Rob

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Advanced-Passenger-Train group:

Which should be the first APT to be
modelled in MS TrainSim ?

o APT-E
o APT-P
o Both as simultaneous projects


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Hi Bathmatus (?)

>are any of you interested in helping to 'build an APT' to run in

Microsofts TrainSim ? perhaps we >should set up a group to share ideas,
files etc??<

I wondered how long it would take before someone came up with this...

If TrainSim is like FS98/FS2K it ought to be possible, as long as M$
release the SDKs for the product. Do you know if they have yet? Of course
the Amtrak Acela makes a good base model, as it's a similar sort of train
and it even tilts!

Regards
Kit

For all the latest information, why not join:

http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite

Take Care,
Andy

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Rob Latham" <rob@t...> wrote:
> A number of people have recently expressed an interest in
developing a model of the Advanced Passenger Train for use in the
> Microsoft Train Simulator. A decision must be made as to model
either the APT-E, APT-P or preferably both trains, obviously as we
> have a tame P-Train here in Crewe, I personally would love to see
that one first, although I expect Kit would rather have his
> E-Train running on a virtual Old Dalby!
>
> The APT project should include
>
> Cab View
> Traction
> Braking
> Tilt
>
> Additional features could include
>
> Exterior View
> Passenger View
> C-APT
> Appropriate routes (inc Old Dalby for Kit !)
>
>
> I'm currently putting together a web-page to follow the progress
made with any models of either train.
>
> Keep me informed.....
>
> Rob

BAD NEWS !!! I'm afraid Acela does not tilt in MSTS, so that will go
for any add on locos too.

Take Care,
Andy

> If TrainSim is like FS98/FS2K it ought to be possible, as long as M$
> release the SDKs for the product. Do you know if they have yet? Of

course

> the Amtrak Acela makes a good base model, as it's a similar sort of

train

> and it even tilts!
>
> Regards
> Kit

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:

> BAD NEWS !!! I'm afraid Acela does not tilt in MSTS, so that will

go

> for any add on locos too.
>

Thats not wot I was told - AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH if that
be true were all sunk


Has anyone got there copy yet -- Im still waiting


Bathmatus

Hi Andy,

>BAD NEWS !!! I'm afraid Acela does not tilt in MSTS, so that will go for

any add on locos too.<

While I'm disappointed in that, how do you know that it doesn't when the
product has yet to be released? I distinctly remember the first PR release
from M$ said that it did, and I haven't seen anything that refutes it yet.
Is there an 'inside line' somewhere that I've missed?

On a general Virtual APT theme, if the sim operates anything like FS98 or
FS2K (and it sounds as if it does) it would almost be possible to make both
E Train and P Train from the same model. The performance isn't all that
different for each train, and it might only need new external textures for
each version. Of course it depends how M$ model the individual vehicles, as
the simulation of the P Train would effectively need one or two 'powered
coaches' in the middle of the train, and I can't see M$ having thought of
that.

Does anyone in the Group have experience of building aircraft models for
FS98 or FS2K? I've done a very small amount of work with AF99 for FS98
aircraft, but I haven't totally finished either of the projects I'm
currently working on yet.

Regards
Kit

Hi Everyone,

I find all my information from the MSTS fan site. In April I asked
the following question "Would it be possible to create an InterCity
APT?" - The answers was yes ! but it wouldn't be able to tilt !! The
owners of the fan site were invited, by Microsoft, to sample the
simulator. After their return they told me that Acela did not tilt.
That was almost two months ago whilst it was still being prepared by
MS. I will ask 'the men in the know' again just to double check.

Fingers Crossed,
Andy

>While I'm disappointed in that, how do you know that it doesn't when
>the product has yet to be released? I distinctly remember the first
>PR release from M$ said that it did, and I haven't seen anything
>that refutes it yet. Is there an 'inside line' somewhere that I've
>missed?

> Regards
> Kit

Still bad news.....The Acela defiantly DOES NOT tilt !!!!


That's it, I'm not buying it !
Andy

Attachments :

A new 3D model of the APT-P is currently being produced for the Railway 3D
game [ http://www.rail3d.ic24.net ] looks good at the moment and should have
cab views and outside, etc.

Shame about Msts. I had my copy pre-ordered.

Tilting: Someone in the BVE group were apparently making a tilting Virgin
Train - nothing else was heard. :( . I went on board one of the new voyagers
at Wakefield Kirkgate yesterday. Trust me, they are VERY small. 11 coaches
down to 4!



Steven
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Hi Steven,
where did you see about the APT-P in rail3d - I can only find the old model. - could you send me the exact URL.

Thanks

Rob

P.S.
as for the lack of tilt in MSTS to quote Bathmatus "AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH" (I had to use cut & paste to get that one
right!)

So would you say that if you ever want to go on one
you MUST (unless you want to end up standing) reserve
a seat?

By the way, is it true that they no longer have seat
reservation labels on the seats and that the seat
reservation information is displayed on a screen by
the seat insted?

Graham

>I went on board
> one of the new voyagers
> at Wakefield Kirkgate yesterday. Trust me, they are
> VERY small. 11 coaches
> down to 4!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/

Hi all APT fans,
As MSTS doesnt support tilt in the normal models, and it may not be
possible, we shall have to still make the models and run passive!!!,
get my drift Kit.

When all is said and done, yes they should have included the tilt,
but I still want to drive E train at Old Dalby, tilting or not.

I can feel a 3D Studio max comming on, only used it a bit, but nows
the time to learn I feel.

Did you know that MSTS has been out in states for a month, Kit why
could you go to the states on bussines and get us all a copy.

Release date for over here is still 20 July,,,,,why is the question.

Regards

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group, NRM.

Hi all I have seen that MS Train sim is out in June the 29th
So hop for lee not long.
And the price was £27.99
From Gary

Hi

Were did you see that advertised?

Graham
--- gary@... wrote:

> Hi all I have seen that MS Train sim is out in June
> the 29th
> So hop for lee not long.
> And the price was �27.99
> From Gary
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/

Attachments :

hello again :)

The APT-P for Railway 3D in D3D mode is currently being made by a member of
the egroup. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/railway3d and should be ready
shortly.

The seat reservations on the VT services are currently being edited when we
visited. The seats had slots in the top for the tickets, however they have
got plastic slots in, covering the holes. perhaps VT will only have the
reserved tickets on certain journeys, or won't? The plastic was easy to come
out, and will proberly be stolen. They may be taken out, but that service
was the only train that is fully ready to be entered. The tannoy
announcements have nice cheezy tones, someone in the cab obviously has a
xylophone in there to play with.

This train (220 002) did NOT have any interactive 'screens' or 'reservation
signs' as was thought. It does have a screen outside the doors stating the
destination, route, coach number, stops, time of departure, all up-to-date!
(for once).

Shame once more about Microsoft Train Sim. I have pre-ordered my copy to
arrive sometime in July. Microsoft FS2k will have to go :) Too big in size!

Just go really fast in BVE, it usually swings the view around. I find it
quite effective when driving a 41 or 153!

:)

Steven


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Rob Latham" <rob@...>
Reply-To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
To: <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [APT Group] 3D APT-P
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:38:24 +0100

Hi Steven,
where did you see about the APT-P in rail3d - I can only
find the old model. - could you send me the exact URL.

Thanks

Rob

P.S.
as for the lack of tilt in MSTS to quote Bathmatus
"AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH" (I had to use cut & paste to get that one
right!)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "steven mosby"

> Just go really fast in BVE, it usually swings the view around. I

find it

> quite effective when driving a 41 or 153!

Doesn't BVE tilt the other way (as in for gravity) when going around
corners?

At least it does when taking the Mill Hill branch junction at
120mph.... (with a lot of bounce back)

--
TC

Hi everyone

Spotted the attached on the newsgroup

Nick

Stephen Brown wrote:

> Why not visit my website updated with Class 33 and 50 pictures class 56/89
> and APT coming next.
> http://www.railblue.co.uk

Hi guys, just to let you know there is a site which features the
upcoming APT-P D3D for Rail 3D.

http://www.aptrail3d.fsnet.co.uk

Regards
Joe Lang
Project leader

Rob Latham emailed me the other day saying that a media compnay had got in
touch with him concerning a projected Ch 4 TV programme about the state of
Britain's railways in general and the APT project in particular. It seemed
they wanted to talk to people who'd been on the project or who had
travelled on the train. For some reason Rob thought of me <g>

I phoned the company concerned ,Juniper Productions, and spoke at GREAT
length to a very well clued-up female 'media person' who knew more about
APT than any other media person I've ever been in contact with, makes a
nice change.....

It seems they are possibly going to make a SERIES of programmes about the
railways, and how the current situation is due to succesive Governements
making a pig's ear of funding them. They plan to use the APT as a 'case in
point' and she had already spoken to Sir Peter Parker about it, who gave
the then Government short shift, saying that his period as Chairman was
blighted by a 'here today, gone tomorrow' funding problem the entire time.

I gave her my version, from a somewhat lower level <g> and filled her in on
some salient facts, dates etc. I told her she really ought to read Hugh
WIlliams book before she put film to camera but she said they had been
unable to get a copy. I put her in touch with Hugh and I know that later in
the day he spoke to her as well.

The upshot of it is that they would like me to be on some sort of a panel
in the studio when the series is filmed! The mind boggles, but at least
there might be chance of Joe Public getting the REAL story of APT at last.

Watch this space.....

In case you're wondering, I've had absolutely zero news on when the
previous APT TV film clip is happening. I've had no news from the
production company, and I've been watching the Sky Lifestyle channels like
a hawk for a sight of it. While there's life, there's hope....

Regards
Kit

Hi all,
Stange how things come round all at once.
I have been contacted by BBC Midlands who are wanting to make a
program about the return of tilting trains trains to the midlands.

Ive emailed them back so not its time to site and wait.

Watch this space.

Paul

I had been contacted by the BBC Midlands about the Return of the
tilting trains programme they are wanting to make.

Things look good for inclusion of both support groups of e & E trains.

They are wanting to come to York in the very near future to film and
talk to the E train group.

Kit, if you read this can you email me your mobile number again, as
the one I set my phone to does work!

Watch this space.

Paul
APT-E Conservation & Support Group.

Hi everyone

Derann - the last producer of home cinema films in the UK advertises
the following item for sale on its website http://www.derann.com in
'Super 8' format...

APT To London
-------------
This is the story of the advanced pass
enger train as narrated by Peter
Pervis (sic). With speeds reaching 125mph passengers can still
travel in real comfort.


1 x 400ft. Col.


At £50.99 it ain't cheap - but with it featuring Peter Purvis, I
would suggest (I haven't seen it) it is the 'return' segment from the
1982 BTF film "Round Trip to Glasgow"

One for the exhibition coach?

Regards

Nick Wheat
Webmaster : http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk