Hi Andy,

>....One of the track's first visitors was the experimental gas turbine

powered APT-P tilting train, >which was tested there intermittently between
1971 and 1976.<

Groooan! I feel a letter coming on.

You'd think Rail of ALL magazines would get it right, but it won't be the
first time I've written to correct them about the APT.

Anyway, how come you know word for word what's going to be in it days
before it comes out?

Regards
Kit

> Anyway, how come you know word for word what's going to be in it

days

> before it comes out?
>
> Regards
> Kit

Hi Kit,

I have a subscription with 'Rail'. One of the benefits of
subscription is I usually receive each issue the week before its
issue date.

Take Care,
Andy

Hi Andy and Kit!

I will forward the right information onto RAIL by
e-mail! May be if we all (ALL MEMBERS OF THE APT
GROUP) send an e-mail to RAIL, they might think to ask
us (people who know about APT) before publishing?

The e-mail address for RAIL is:

nigel.harris@...

On that note, I have seen RAIL in the shops on sale
before the sale date too. In fact last week I was
able to buy THE RAILWAY MAGAZINE ~ MARCH 2001 issue!


Best wishes,


Graham
--- Andy Appleton <AndyAppleton@...>
wrote:

> > Anyway, how come you know word for word what's
> going to be in it
> days
> > before it comes out?
> >
> > Regards
> > Kit
>
> Hi Kit,
>
> I have a subscription with 'Rail'. One of the
> benefits of
> subscription is I usually receive each issue the
> week before its
> issue date.
>
> Take Care,
> Andy
>
>
>
>

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Dear Nigel,

In the following e-mail I was informed that in RAIL,
some incorrect information has been printed.

> To: "APT Group"
> <Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com >
> From: "Andy Appleton"
> <AndyAppleton@...>
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:56:28 -0000
> Reply-to: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [APT Group] Gas Turbine APT-P !!??
>
> Oh Dear...
>
> The next issue of Rail Magazine, out this coming
> Wednesday 21/02/01, has a two page article about the
> new Virgin Pendolino launch. It shows the train at
> Old Dalby and gives the following information about
> Old Dalby:
>
> "Old Dalby opened as a test track in 1971 on the
> former Midland Railway West Bridgford - Nottingham
> route. One of the track's first visitors was the
> experimental gas turbine powered APT-P tilting
> train, which was tested there intermittently between
> 1971 and 1976. Thirty years later, tilt is on the
> agenda again with the Class 390s.
>
> Since then, it has seen trails for high speed
> current collection, which culminated in the design
> of the widely used BR/Brecknell Wills High Speed
> pantograph. The prototype HST, 252001 saw testing
> there, as did Class 89, 90, 91 and 92 electric
> locomotives.
>
> Old Dalby is most famous for the spectacular crash
> test of a nuclear flask in 1984. This saw 46009 and
> a rake of mark 1 coaches crashed into a nuclear
> flask and a wagon at 90mph, devastating the
> locomotive, but leaving the flask intact."
>
> However, it does give the correct information on the
> previous page as it says that the Old Dalby test
> track was used to test the original gas turbine
> powered APT-E in the 1970s. Old Dalby has been
> resurrected in view of its geographical layout with
> curves, tunnels and cuttings.
>
> Take Care,
> Andy
>
>

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,


Graham Duffy (Mr)


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Hi!

I've e-mailed RAIL. Now if we all do, we may see some
change. Again, the address is:

nigel.harris@...


Get e-mailing,


Graham [APT]


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STOP PRESS STOP PRESS STOP PRESS STOP PRESS

Hsve you e-mailed RAIL MAGAZINE yet about the problem
over APT? If not please do!!!!! thank you

GRAHAM DUFFY

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http://www.renationalise.com/

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Do you get Rail Magazine?

If so, do the following:

1. Click on this link g_duffy_uk@...?Subject=Yes
I get Rail Magazine

2. Click on send.

And I will get back to you.

Best wishes,


Grhaam

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If the link does not work, sent an e-mail to me at
g_duffy_uk@... and tell me if you do?

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----- Original Message -----

From: Andy Appleton

To: APT Group

Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:46 PM

Subject: [APT Group] OFF TOPIC: Message 224

Dear All,

 

Message number 224 has been deleted. This is because it was abusive and it contained obscene language. The ex-member who posted this very rude message has been banned from this group and reported to Yahoo! I have now decided to moderate each post sent to the group.

 

Take Care,

The Moderator

 

Advanced-Passenger-Train-owner@yahoogroups.com

 

Hi Andy,
I too have received some abusive / obscene messages sent to the former apt-support-team website on freeserve, because of
the nature of the Mail Form they were anonymous, so now I've removed the mail form and just have a mailto: address.

Rob

Hope that the 'moderation' of the group does not slow it down too much.

Dear Andy,

Thnaks for excluding 224. I have never had such a bad
email in my life!

Keep up the good work,

Graham!!!
--- Andy Appleton <AndyAppleton@...>
wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Message number 224 has been deleted. This is because
> it was abusive and it contained obscene language.
> The ex-member who posted this very rude message has
> been banned from this group and reported to Yahoo! I
> have now decided to moderate each post sent to the
> group.
>
> Take Care,
> The Moderator
>
> Advanced-Passenger-Train-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Hi Andy,

Maybe this was just a one off? Do you think that it
may be a good idea to put the group back to normal?
One for try?

Take care,

Graham

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Attachments :

Some time ago in this group there was talk of an E-Train + Concorde picture, I've not seen that but I have come across a picture of
Prototype HST & a Concorde (might be a 'fake' of course)

See attached scan of a Pandrol Advertisement.


Best Wishes

Rob Latham (APT-P Support Team)

http://www.therailwayage.co.uk

Hi,
Just a quick check,
Is the next workday still scheduled for the 3rd March?

Steven :)

Hi Steven,

>Is the next workday still scheduled for the 3rd March?<

Yes it is, this Saturday coming. Assumin York isn't under a snow bank of
course.

Paul says we're supposed to be putting up 'The Tent', which should be fun,
even though he can't make it.

Regards
Kit

Attachments :

Thanks Kit,

The idea of creating a tent sounds very laughable. I will have to bring my
camera! :)

It's a shame paul can't make it. I hope that I can still make it, despite
the Rail disaster this morning. It's not on my stretch of track, but delays
are expected.

Steven



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Hello Kit,

Is the even at the NRM?

If so, do we still have to pay to get in?

Look forward to hearing from you.

All the best,


Graham
--- Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...> wrote:

> Hi Steven,
>
> >Is the next workday still scheduled for the 3rd
> March?<
>
> Yes it is, this Saturday coming. Assumin York isn't
> under a snow bank of
> course.
>
> Paul says we're supposed to be putting up 'The
> Tent', which should be fun,
> even though he can't make it.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Hi All,
Everyone who is going to attend the E train workday on Saturday,
please work your way to the workshop behind magicians road (the place
where we make our coffee).

Iam unable to attend this meeting as I have to go to a wedding,
although I'm in bed with flu at present so I may not go anywhere.

If members could take plenty of photographs and then email them to
me, I can still make a workday report for the web site.

Everyone have a good day on Saturday, but please be careful and well
behaved, as you normaly are.

If you get time Kit, please could you enquire about the Easter
weekend open day.

Thanks

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

The following Advanced-Passenger-Train poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Which train should have it's photo on
the home page?

(The actual photo to be used will be
selected at a later date)

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- APT-E, 1 votes, 11.11%
- APT-P, 1 votes, 11.11%
- Alternate the photo each month, 7 votes, 77.78%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

----- Original Message -----

From: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Sent: 01 March 2001 19:44

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [APT Group] Poll results for Advanced-Passenger-Train

The following Advanced-Passenger-Train poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Which train should have it's photo on
the home page?

(The actual photo to be used will be
selected at a later date)

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- APT-E, 1 votes, 11.11% 
- APT-P, 1 votes, 11.11% 
- Alternate the photo each month, 7 votes, 77.78% 



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Advanced-Passenger-Train

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/








Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: G. Duffy

Sent: 01 March 2001 19:19

To: Advanced-Passenger-Train@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [APT Group] Digest Number 111

Hello Kit,

Is the even at the NRM?

If so, do we still have to pay to get in?

Look forward to hearing from you.

All the best,


Graham
--- Kit Spackman <101453.3657@...> wrote:
> Hi Steven,
>
> >Is the next workday still scheduled for the 3rd
> March?<
>
> Yes it is, this Saturday coming.  Assumin York isn't
> under a snow bank of
> course.
>
> Paul says we're supposed to be putting up 'The
> Tent', which should be fun,
> even though he can't make it.
>
> Regards
> Kit
>
>


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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

APT-E Workday Number 8

Date: Saturday, March 3, 2001
Time: 10:00AM - 4:00PM UTC (GMT+00:00)

This workday to be confirmed, please check the Support Group
Website.

Dear Members,

Can someone please tell me which is the most recent book to contain
info on the APT Project?
I have been studying it at Uni, but all the books seem to end
"When the APT-S 'goes' into service in 1982, we can look forward
to..." and similar quotes.
"Two Miles a Minute" and "Promise Unfulfilled" were written in the
80s and I need something that tells the whole story, up to the point
where APT-P was used as a testbed for IC225, and later.

Thanks in advance (hmmm),

Alex Stallman
Mechanical Engineering 3rd year
Manchester University.

Dear Andy,

I am studying the APT Project and university. I would like to order
two copies of the book, if that's possible.
Thanks,

Alex

Dear Andy,

I am a Mechanical Engineering student, compiling a case study on the
Advanced passenger train. PLease could you add two copies to your
order for me?
Thanks,

Alex

--- In Advanced-Passenger-Train@y..., "Andy Appleton"
<AndyAppleton@b...> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I am able to offer the book at the original cover price - £1.95

(+P&P). At the moment I am paying £1.95 per copy myself but I am
trying to make a deal with the guy for a 10% discount which, if
successful, I will pass straight onto the members of this group.

>
> Take Care,
> Andy
>
> Advanced-Passenger-Train-owner@y...

Hi Everyone,

At this moment in time it looks as though this book is actually out
of print, I know a few of us already thought it was. I have one more
place to try ????

Fingers Crossed,
Andy

P.S I have obtained several books with reference to the APT from my
local library. The only problem is that I have to give them back !

> I am studying the APT Project and university. I would like to

order two copies of the book, if that's possible.

> Thanks,
>
> Alex

Hi All,
Plans are in hand for an APT-E open weekend during the easter weekend.

It is hoped that a guided tour of the train and a slide/TV display
can be arrange inside the empty VIP lounge in TC1.

Simon Argyle has produced a brillaint leaflet to handout during the
open days, a big thankyou to him for that.

Members of the "APT-E Conservation & Support Group" will be on hand
to answer questions about the APT.

Kit Spackman "E Train" head tilt engineer will be on hand to answer
questions about E train and tell you the facts behind the APT
programme.

It is hoped that the group will man the train from 1pm until 4pm.

Watch the E group for furthure information.

Lets just hope for some nice weather.

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group
HTTP://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/york1
Pal@...

Hi everyone

I've just joined this group and am seeking some specific information
regarding the APT Programme.

I am researching the works of the British Transport Film Unit and one
of the gaps in my knowledge is the APT programme.

Several films were produced by BTF on the project, the following being
obvious by their title as to the contents of the film :-

Advanced Passenger Train (1969)
APT - Faraday Lecture (1972)
C-APT (1977)

If it wasn't for the APT film & TV page on the Railway Age website, I
wouldn't have known there were 2 another confirmed films ("APT" not
appearing in the title) :-

E For Experimental - 1975
Round Trip to Glasgow - 1982

A further Peter Purves presented film was called 'Discovering Railways'
(1977) which offers half a dozen or so brief sequence of Old Dalby APT-
E run-bys (plus one driver in the cab view) with Purves uttering the
prophetic words - "I for one am looking forward to travelling on them".
This film was in essence a montage of clips from many other BTF
productions, linked by Purves, and is no doubt footage taken from an
earlier film.

All this begs the question, were there other BTF produced films that
featured the APT (E or P) either as a whole or in part ? I would
welcome any further information on the APT and BTF.

I would also like to know if any of the above titles are available on
home video as I am trying to obtain as many BTF productions as possible
for my research. I noticed the Railway Age website has screen grabs and
I wonder if they are from videos or original movie footage.

Who knows, perhaps an archive APT compilation video would be feasible
in years to come! - the new BTF compilation from the British Film
Institute called "Engineering" only goes as far as the Blue Pullman and
West Coast electrification in the early 1960s.

I welcome any correspondance on this or any general BTF matters if any
similar afficianados are able to offer any help for which I would be
eternally grateful.

The information I am compiling is for a website which is in production
and which I hope one day will be as comprehensive as possible :-

http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk

Thanks in advance for any information.

Nick Wheat

PS - BTF lovers are invited to join the brand new chat group :-

britishtransportfilms@yahoogroups.com

Nick,
very interested to see your email about BTF films, The Railway Age purchased some years ago release prints of both Round
Trip To Glasgow and also E For Experimental from where I took the stills for the website.
They were available on VHS from a company called BCL films for a while a number of years back, but BFI now hold the originals and
rights to them.


I have never however seen the films that you have listed, although I was aware of them from an old BTF catalogue in out archives.

INTRODUCING C-APT - Colour 1977 20min

FARADAY LECTURE - RAILWAYS HAVE AN ELECTRIC FUTURE 1982 60min (NOT 1972 as you list)

DISCOVERING RAILWAYS

I would be most interested in obtaining copies of these for exhibition in Crewe (as well as my own personal interest)

Is the 1969 film of a strange model tilting throughout the country side before being lifted off the track by a man ?? sound only
being music & whistles ?? - If so I have also seen that one (one still from it appears in my models section).

Best Wishes

Rob Latham (APT-P Support Team)

http://www.therailwayage.co.uk

Hi everyone

I wrote -

> BTF lovers are invited to join the brand new chat group :-
>
> britishtransportfilms@yahoogroups.com

*CORRECTION*

When I created the group, I didn't realise Yahoo Groups sent banner
adverts with each email (unless a payment is received)

Therefore, I have scrapped the Yahoo BTF Group and created a new one on
Topica, so instead of Yahoo please visit :-

http://www.topica.com/lists/btf-forum

Regards

Nick

Hi Rob

Rob Latham wrote:

>
> Nick,
> very interested to see your email about BTF films, The Railway Age purchased some years ago release prints of both Round
> Trip To Glasgow and also E For Experimental from where I took the stills for the website.
> They were available on VHS from a company called BCL films for a while a number of years back, but BFI now hold the originals and rights to them.

Could you possibly elaborate on the BCL films video please - Film title,
contents and any other BTF releases by them.

> I have never however seen the films that you have listed, although I was aware of them from an old BTF catalogue in out archives.

I'd be interested in which year the Catalogue is from - I have several
of the catalogues but am always looking in getting copies to plug any gaps!

> INTRODUCING C-APT - Colour 1977 20min
>
> FARADAY LECTURE - RAILWAYS HAVE AN ELECTRIC FUTURE 1982 60min (NOT 1972 as you list)

I think there must have been 2 different Faraday Lecture Films because
"APT - Faraday Lecture" is definitely 1972! It is on the list as BT 1076
and these works numbers were allocated chronologically with dozens of
films around it being 1970-1974

> DISCOVERING RAILWAYS
>
> I would be most interested in obtaining copies of these for exhibition in Crewe (as well as my own personal interest)

Likewise, I am seeking to expand my BTF collection as much as possible.

I can certainly provide a copy ( Shhhhhh.. ;-) ) of Discovering Railways
for you if desired. I think I should clarify one thing though, the film
shows several bits of footage in a montage linked by Purves, but not all
APT bits. For the record, the running order of footage was...

Purves on HST; Class 87s being built at Crewe Works and electrification
work to Glasgow (from "Wires Over the Border"); New Power Box signalling
(unknown); Track relaying; Waterloo in Rush Hour (speeded up footage);
Purves at Willesden Freightliner Terminal; Molten iron containers; Block
Trains; Train Driver demonstrating his job (Class 25 at Chellaston Jct,
Derbyshire - from "Forward to First Principles"); Ford containers
(Halewood - Genk) & shipping; Ferries at Dover & Hovercraft (speeded up
footage); Hippies dancing on LSD at the Roundhouse (Camden shed);
Shildon Cavalcade, 1975; APT-E; Purves at Willesden TMD (by 87022);

The film is on a video produced by BR's Education Department and sent to
schools and was not for general release. The contents of the video are
Discovering Railways; Journey; Inter City 1250; Overture 125; Partners
In Prosperity; Merry Go Round (NCB film produced in collaboration with
BR & CEGB); Wires Over The Border; A New Age For Railways

> Is the 1969 film of a strange model tilting throughout the country side before being lifted off the track by a man ?? sound only
> being music & whistles ?? - If so I have also seen that one (one still from it appears in my models section).

I'm afraid I don't know as I haven't seen it.

Regards

Nick

Would it be possible to have a group chat? Some other groups meet
each week or so, would it be a good idea?

Any comments welcome.

Steven
pmht_steven@...

Dear APT Fans,

(I'm still doing my APT case study)

Can anyone tell me anything about the following...?

1) Why BR decided to introduce the 125 while the APT was in
development. What was the idea behind it?

In fact - I'd appreciate any help in researching the origins of the
125.

2) What was the Intercity 250 all about? Not the Pendolino - the one
during the 80s that went to mock-up stage according to Virgin Trains
press material.

3) Anyone knwo anything about the current BR coaches on 125/225 being
converted to tilting? I heard they were "able to be easily converted"
somewhere.

4) And finally - what was the logic behind the 225, which seemed
based on the APT, but obviously non-tilting.


Thanks in Advance,

Alex Stallman

Dear All,

It's me again, the Mech Eng student writing a project report on the
APT. My case study will hopefully be used to teach future
undergraduates about the APT, so I would really appreciate your
help. Can you assist me with these curiosities?

Can anyone tell me where the HST/Intercity 125 project sprang from in
1972/3? The HST features prominently in some APT books, but its
origins are a mystery to me! I am reading "Two Miles a Minute", but
although there is an HST on the cover, there is little explanation of
why the project was commissioned.

The way it reads, BR suddenly introduced the 125 behind the APT
project, decided the APT wasn't worth the effort, and improved the
125 to the 225. OK, that's a little simplified, but can you correct
me?


Another interesting reference I found in some Virgin Trains material
was that during the 80s, there was a design for a non-tilting 250
(not a re-badged Pendolino) that was taken to a mock-up vehicle
stage. I can find no other references for it though.

Thanks in Advance,

Alex Stallman

Alex

A few answers to your question. Because APT was a totally new design
of train with so many untried features, BR decided to commission
another research group that would develop existing diesel technology
in case their was a delay or problems with APT.

They therefore came up with a plan to have two 2500 hp power cars at
each end of a fixed formation train, both with new Paxman engines
which could give a maximum speed of 125 mph on the straight. Plans
for a 'Super Deltic' were also considered but this would bring
problems of a high axleload and running the train around at
stations. HST also had the advantage that if one power car failed
then it could continue its journey, albeit at a lower speed. This
was authorised in the late 1960's and a prototype was ready at the
same time as APT-E. To acheive speeds of over 100 mph, HST borrowed
the 'air suspension' and bogie technology that was being developed
for APT.

The HST was always envisaged as a short term solution, pending
perfection of APT, that would be put into service quickly on BR
straight routes such as the ECML and GWML. Speed on WCML and MML
could only be raised by APT due to the curvature of the track on
these routes (ECML also has significant curvature north of
Darlington).

By the 1980's APT should have been put into squadron service on the
WCML, and then with potential electrification of the MML and ECML
should have been the main form of high speed transport, displacing
HSTs from their duties. As it turned out for a number of reasons
(none of which were really to do with APT-P as it was running
reliably by 1984) APT was cancelled and the less ambitious IC 225
came about.

After APT and the go ahead for ECML electrification, BR decided to go
for a convential electric loco design (Class 89 - 1 prototype)
without advanced features that could pull an upgraded Mk 3 coach at
125 mph. This was abandoned as it offered nothing to the public over
HST. A semi -fixed formation 140mph train with a loco (class 91)that
could be used for other duties as well was the best option. Tapered
body sides were for the fitting of a tilt system at a later date.

As it turns out IC 225 was more of a development of HST than APT.
After APT-P, the APT concept was watered down. By APT-U came about
as a proposal, hydrokinetic brakes, 155mph capability and vehicle
articulation was gone. All tat remained was the vehicle tilt. IC
225 was therefore APT-U without the tilt and was constructed of steel
rather than aluminium. With all the advanced features gone, speed
limited to 125 mph and with ideas for tilt gone, IC 225 was more a
development of HST than a replacement for APT.

As for IC 250, this was only a BR proposal for a 1990's APT as per
original specification for the WCML (it was realised that signalling
and other infrastructure features would have to be upgraded).

Regarding Mk 3 coaches, these can not be tilted as they have straight
bodysides and as such would move outside the loading gauge when
tilting. Mk 4 coaches could be fitted with a tilt mechanism, but
their body profile only allows 6 degrees of tilt compensation (APT
could tilt by up to 9 degrees).

Sorry this is long, but I hope it answers your questions somewhat.

Regards

Simon Argyle

Firstly: Simon - thanks! That was quite an answer.

Now, to all of you,

Simon wrote:

"As it turned out for a number of reasons
(none of which were really to do with APT-P as it was running
reliably by 1984) APT was cancelled"

OK - here's a big one - for my project, which will be orientated
towards engineering business decisions, I would like to know
"Why BR Abandoned APT".

I would like to compile a list of reasons, and would appreciate the
input of anyone here who feels they can contribute.
If you have any sources, like BR press releases that I can perhaps
see or borrow, then I would be more than willing to give you an
acknowledgement in my thesis.

Thanks,

Alex

Mech Eng 3rd Year
Manchester School of Engineering

Attachments :

Alex,
have you seen the leaflet "British Rail's Prototype Advanced Passenger Train - Providing InterCity Technical Developments"
this document by the M&EE department explains some reasons behind the move from an APT solution to the IC225 (Class 91 + Mark IV
coaches).

I also assume that you are aware of the Open University fast trains case study (T362) that seems to have a lot in common with your
own project.

Best Wishes

Rob Latham (APT-P Support Team)

http://www.therailwayage.co.uk

Hi Alex,
You can ask that question, and you will get many different answers.
There are several reasons, which keep getting mentioned though.

1. By the time APT-P was running in relief service the marketing
department of BR had decided that APT was not the product they want
due to bad press.
2. The market forces affecting the railways at that time had changed
drastically from the time APT was announce. IE cost effective trains
had to have the ability to run all the time, multi functional train
formations, multi duty, passenger & freight.
3. The service centres around the BR network would need upgrading in
order to manage the APT train formation, ie splitting trains when
faulty coaches were identified.
4. Which I think is one of the biggest reasons APT was scrapped, the
west coast mainline need extensive upgrading in order for APT to run
at its design speed and meet the targets wanted by the marketing
department.

In retrospect, IC225 could have been and APT with no-articulation
and with or without tilt, in push pull form. The P train could have
easily been converted into this type of formation, see Robs website
for more details.

It is very surprising that APT appeared at all during very tight
financial castrate. Given the backing that other high speed trains
have been given in other countries, its good to know that the APT
programme cost a fraction of what other countries have had to spend
to enable them to get high speed trains running in service. Its is
said that to get the French TGV running, even in prototype form, it
cost £300 million, we have APT-E, APT-P x 3 for £50 million.
APT was
a viable product if only we had a government that wanted to invest in
the railways. Many types of APT train would be running now on all
types of routes, long haul and cross-country.

Once again, we through the chance away of leading the railway world.

I don't think we will even know the real reason APT was scrapped,
but
the debate will go on and on.

This probably hasn't helped, but I thought Id say something.

Regards

Paul Leadley
APT-E Conservation & Support Group

Alex

From my personal research, poor management of APT after it transfered
from the research department to CM&EE was the main reason why the
project suffered delays, and hence the delays played a large part in
its cancellation.

I would recommend the following two books, which between them paint
an accurate picture of all the variables which led to the project
being cancelled:

On the Right Lines? - Stephen Potter
APT: A Promise Unfulfilled - Hugh Williams

By the way, APT-P did in the end prove that you could run trains
successfully and reliably at 155 mph on existing track and within
existing signalling (although continuous cab signalling would have
been a pre-requisite as drivers would not be able to see the colour
of the signal clearly at 155 mph!)

I am in the process of creating a handout outling all the problems
that led to the cancellation, so will e-mail it when complete.

Regards

Simon Argyle

Alex here are the details of OU Fast Train Case Study -

T362: DESIGN AND INNOVATION
Stephen Potter & Robin Roy
Open University 1986
0 335 17273 3


Best Wishes

Rob Latham (APT-P Support Team)

http://www.therailwayage.co.uk

P.S. I'm replying to the group rather than your new rather inappropriate email address